Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Posts 51 to 100 of 139
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    1st string: X
    2nd string: 4 (3rd finger)
    3rd string: 3 (first finger)
    4th string: 5 (4th finger)
    5th string: 4 (2nd finger)
    6th string: Open

    Dan, if you're looking for the first chord in Stella in the key of E this is a good place to start

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    I am looking for the 1st chord in Stella and I thank you guys and will give these suggestions a try

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    1st chord in Stella! Wow I thinl it's enough 1000 pages thread!)))

    To be honest in original I personally like here straight min11 (no b5s) - it has more modern sound but I like it... and specifially woth this vocing
    0x5435 (Em11)

    First of all the overall key reference here does not make much sence becasue it begins exactly in the way I described above - It's a minor cadence to the III of the key.

    only I made it in C major with precuamable modulation to E minor...
    In original Stella it's Bb major and the turnaroud is expected to go to D minor (but it does not)
    In your E major version it supposedly goes to G# minor but is being interrupted...


    so we look at it in that III minor key it's iim7b5 with 11 in the melody that goes to V
    In origianl Stella changes it Em7b5 with 11 (A in the melody) and the next chord is A7... faunctionally ot goes like it's going to D minor or major tonic... but then it's interrupted

    But since Stella is so unstable tonally there are lots of jazz way to analyze these opening harmonies.

    I like the approach Peter Bernstein describes here - referring to the opening chord in original movie score which is different from the typical jazz changes that probably came from bop ii-v's...

    Check this Peter Bernstein video

    He discusses this 1st chord

  5. #54
    X1214X
    Resolving to
    X4544X on the tie

    X1202X
    X4544X
    X4545X

    I actually like the half diminished chords by the way.

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    What is that chord?

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    The 2nd chord on the chart is f#m7......the melody note in e is b (third measure) There is no b in f#m7. I need a chord that has a b on the second string open

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    1st x
    2nd 0
    3rd 2
    4th 2
    5th x
    6th 2

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    The one i gave you is an e diminished with a d# in the melody

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    It’s an F#m11. The chart says F#m and the melody is B, so we just place the B on top even though it’s not in the chord. same way we did in the first chord

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    from bottom up you have E, Db, G, Bb (thats your E dim) then we added the D# melody note on top

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    So now I have the first line arranged....it sounds pretty good. The 3rd chord....b7 actually works and sounds good

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    The 3rd chord is b7 and works as is but the 4th chord is bm7 on the chart and the melody note is c#(this is in the key of E)

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    1st:x
    2nd:2
    3rd:2
    4th:0
    5th:2
    6th.x

    This is a Bm9. just like the other ones it is a bm chord as written and then stick the c# melody note on top

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdan
    The 3rd chord is b7 and works as is but the 4th chord is bm7 on the chart and the melody note is c#(this is in the key of E)
    Dan, it seems to me that you're looking for an arrangement, but that's not the purpose of a lead sheet. A lead sheet is the melody on one line, annotated with a schematic guide to the harmony. It's a tool for improvising and for building one's own arrangement, not a fully notated score. If you can't find the melody note in the voicing that's written on a chart, you have to find a way to add it.

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 05-23-2018 at 10:44 AM.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    I am doing my own arrangement but it is kind of hard when the given chords don't have the melody note in the chord. Stella is the most difficult because there are so many of the given chords that need to be altered. As I struggle through the process there are others that are following along and learning along with me. This forum is not just for the super talented and super smart guitarists of which I am not a member. I can however, crunch them all in ping pong.....Dan

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    In the third line there is an EM7 and the melody note is a on the 3rd string 2nd fret? I am looking for a chord in the key of E that will work
    Last edited by jazzdan; 05-23-2018 at 03:25 PM.

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    1st x
    2 x
    3rd 2
    4 1 or 4
    5th 2
    6 0


    you'll get it Dan, this is a tough tune.

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    9th bar? So you got 4th, 3rd, 2nd(9th) Root...

    An Esus would work, it's just one beat... low to high 0 2 2 2 0 0

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    Dan, the one I gave you with the major 7th (D#) doesn't sound good with the A in the melody. I just tried it. Go with what Jeff said or this:

    Low to High: 0 4 4 2 X X

    Or with the top two open strings like Jeff says...that sounds cool because they keep ringing as you play the melody

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    I think the problem is that the EM7 sounds off, very awkward with the melody line, and Emaj7 makes the shift to the A# chord sound clumsy. See if you prefer changing the Emaj7 to 04x2xx or x7x6x5 (2nd inversion of A major)...

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Just play the written chord and put that melody note on top. You'll make new chords!

    Chords are often just written in a simple form, so that the player knows its function. Whether you want a 9 or 11 on a m7 is up to the player. A dominant 7 could be done in a multitude of ways, but is still often just written as 7. Unless the melody dictates something specific...e.g. a 7#5 (like in Stella), telling you to avoid the 5th.

    The melody of Stella is often on 11's and 9's. So when you play m7's with those notes on top...you're playing m11 and m9.

    Chords are constructed from thirds; every other note in the scale. 1-3-5 is a simple triad. All the way up to using all seven notes in the scale 1-3-5-7-9-11-13 (though one rarely uses all 7 notes, especially on guitar...).

    Bm7 with C# on top, what chord does it become?

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    The Esus sounds good to my ear and is easy to play....thanks

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    The next measure in Stella asks for A#m7b5 and the melody note is g# on the 3rd string. I can't find that chord in my chord book so I am lost

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    You might try a very small chord here--x 1 2 1 x x will give you what you need.

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    It sounds so dissonant to me...any other choices?

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    Dan — I think you usually transpose to more guitar-friendly keys. Stella isn’t a very guitar-friendly tune, but E seems to be a particularly difficult key for it due to the range of the melody (highest to lowest notes). If I wanted an easier key than Bb I might choose A instead of E.

    It’s fine to work in E, it’s just more awkward. You must decide which octave to play the melody in. Either the high notes go very high up the neck or the low notes go pretty low. Looks like we’re going with the latter in this thread.

    Stella has a tricky melody and harmony that depend on forward motion to work. If you sustain EM7 with A in the melody (as in your previous post) or sustain A#m7b5 with G# in the melody they may sound a little odd, but it works because the melody is moving as the chord sustains in measure 9, then the chords change under a sustained melody not in measure 10. The tensions between melody and harmony give the tune its forward motion.

    I’d suggest not thinking of the melody notes as being part of the named chord. Instead, focus first on playing the melody, then add roots and two or three chord tones under the melody to give a sense of the harmony.

    This is difficult to explain. Maybe one of the more advanced members can do a better job of it (or will correct me if I’m on the wrong track).
    After posting the above, I see someone made a similar suggestion on one of your previous threads.

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdan
    The next measure in Stella asks for A#m7b5 and the melody note is g# on the 3rd string. I can't find that chord in my chord, book so I am lost
    May I point out that the chord you quote is the enharmonic of Bbm7b5 , which should appear
    in a half decent chord book, if not I suggest that you acquire a better chord book . failing that
    just figure out the notes contained in the desired chord and painstakingly locate them on the
    fingerboard. Bingo !

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdan
    The next measure in Stella asks for A#m7b5 and the melody note is g# on the 3rd string. I can't find that chord in my chord book so I am lost
    Hi Dan,

    I like how you're opening this arrangement up for group discussion. It's interesting to hear everyone's take on it and suggestions.

    What I would like to add, even though it may not be all that helpful immediately, is to consider moving the melody up an octave when you're working on arrangements. That way you have more room underneath the melody to find and finger accompanying chords. In your case here there's not a lot of real estate under the g# on the 3rd string to find these chords.

    I think you'd find that working on this skill would eventually pay large rewards!

  30. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    You might try a very small chord here--x 1 2 1 x x will give you what you need.
    Quote Originally Posted by jazzdan
    It sounds so dissonant to me...any other choices?
    That's a pretty good one. I mean you're getting pretty low with these parameters. So, anything will sound more dissonant by default.

    Play the bass note a half beat before or after the other two notes to break it up rhythmically. The ear will usually except almost anything in terms of low/muddy/dissonant if it's somewhat broken up , even by a small time interval.

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    As I have previously stated....I try to play tunes in the lower register because I can read them better there. I find it difficult to look at the music and play up the neck. I don't memorize easily so that is another reason....thanks....Dan

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    The melody note is c# and the suggested chord is G#m7 xx442x is what I came up with. Is that right?

  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    That will work. You can easily put a G# in the bass too, if you want, 4x442x, Can be fingerpicked or if you use the left hand to mute the 5th string, strummed.

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Yeah, with the bass note it's better....thanks

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    jazzdan,

    once you know the notes that are in the chord and where the notes on the fretboard... it's all the options you can try considering your own hands and technique.

    It's up to you of course but I am not really sure that asking about every single chord agains melody is the most efficient way to learn to make an arrangements.

    Anyway

    A#m7b is A# - C# - E - G#

    C# is chord tone

    you can use basic shape
    X1212x

    Or you can drop out some notes

    or you can use an inversion
    You can play also with open high E x12120 id you can underline a melodic note C# in between..

  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    You need a 3rd or 1st string G# Dan?

  37. #86

    User Info Menu

    The notes of the chord are d# gb a db and the melody note is g# on the 1st string....can't find a good mix

  38. #87

    User Info Menu

    the first thing that comes to mind is this, from low to high:

    x x 1 2 2 4

    However what you play before it matters

  39. #88

    User Info Menu

    I have enjoyed this thread. Awesome member contribution including excellent playing by "Mr B".
    I'm currently doing a recap of this song. It's funny, because in my early years I used to hate it. Obviously I didn't get it, and the reason was that nobody else that I played with did. This was long before Internet and for most songs nobody had a reference other than Fake book (we were kids, mostly listening to records of contemporary pop-music). In every combo there was always someone that wanted to play "Stella" (!) and I did my best to see to that it never happened (for the benefit of me, the band and the audience).

    Then one day I heard a recording of Ella Fitzgerald and the Lou Levy quartet and thought "aha, this is what it is supposed to sound like!". Since that day, Ella has been my reference for "Stella By Starlight", the reference I needed to grasp the song, also whit a groove. (By the way, Lou and Ella played it in F, perfect for solo guitar).

    Nowadays, when working on a song, I listen to as many versions as possible and always the original to understand the composer intentions and then some cherry picking from other arrangements.
    This is the first time ever I hear the original "Stella by Starlight" and I have to say this is also the best version. Just wow.

  40. #89

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sunnysideup
    So is the consensus that the first change is a diminished?
    A somewhat late reply Anyway, for those interested;
    I think I hear Esus4/-5 as the first chord in the original theme.
    Ella and Lou play in the key of F, which would make this first chord Bsus4/-5.
    I have played B7sus4...But B7sus4/-5 sounds pretty cool and would be closer to the original composition...very interesting.

  41. #90

    User Info Menu

    It all comes back to those 4-3 suspensions, doesn't it? Everything seems to be about that ATM....

  42. #91

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Many of the songs in the Real Book use Bill Evans changes.
    Very true, and sometimes they use the changes that Bill happened to use on just one chorus, or in one particular version of a tune he recorded many times. Thanks to the real Book, those changes are now burned into smartphones and ipads all over the world.

  43. #92

    User Info Menu

    I think I put it somewhere here... (I would not be surprised if Jordan's opening opst was inspired by his studies with Peter even)


  44. #93

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I think I put it somewhere here... (I would not be surprised if Jordan's opening opst was inspired by his studies with Peter even)

    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)

  45. #94

    User Info Menu

    As I understand it, the generally accepted approach to the 'original' chord is that it is a Bb diminished with a melody note A on top, that's why he calls it diminished (I think Barry Harris also says this).

    I think I've seen it referred to as Bb dim (maj7). It is certainly an ambiguous-sounding chord.

  46. #95

    User Info Menu

    I view it as Dbo7 Cm7 F7, common chord progression.

    It's also quite common for dim7 chords to have non chord tones in the melody. You get it in really early stuff even. This note - the b6/b13 on the biiio7 comes up a lot, often as a suspension or passing tone, which is actually the case here...

  47. #96

    User Info Menu

    We often substitute chords for various reasons; to alter the sound (re-harmonization), to facilitate improvisation, to facilitate finger setting, to solve the problem when we don't comprehend the chord symbol or when we find that what's written is a poor representation of the music (from an objective or subjective understanding). This is just Jazz, business as usual.

    Chords without extensions are easy to play and give me the opportunity to add my own. Jazz!

    Now, -what if the written changes don't make sense? We can fix it, no problem, provided there is a common reference for the music at hand (refer to my first post).

    -What if I play it true the way it was written, but can't make it fit into my logic? Then I can rationalize, whatever floats my boat.

    -What if I alter the changes in a song that has already been altered more than once? We can call it evolution or degeneration (or just Jazz!). All in the eyes of the beholder.

    Fact remains, If I remove the top melody note from the opening chord, it's still not a dim-chord.
    Is it close enough? Does anyone care? Could anyone tell the difference? Who am I to say. But I appreciate this thread.

    Also don't forget the performance guidelines for real Jazz musicians:


  48. #97

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    He talks about "diminished", but he plays Esus4add13/-5. (very close to the original opening chord).
    It's the suspended 4th, that makes the transition possible. (It becomes the root in the next chord).
    (The opening chord is not the key of the song)
    the 4th - I would call it anticipation not suspension here... it describes better what happens here for me.
    The whole tune is built on these anticipation...

    he talks about things that are going on behind it... it is just different way of hearing things...
    I would say that his description goes from undercurrent to the surface...

    Actually he does it all the time... he thinks harmonically on basic 7th chords movement, even triads... and functional relation mostly... all the rest is more or less an embelishment or overlapping of harmonies.

    I think in that context for him it makes more sense just to draw the main path, the essence of turnaround....

    It's like.. you can think of a chord as of A-11 but followed by D7 it is essentially just A-7 with anticipation of the next chord in the melody... to me this description gives moreunderstanding and connects things better...

    At least in such a context

    the way we describe things when we discuss it is mostly the way we play them ... the way we make movement and connect harmonies and phrases...

  49. #98

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Fact remains, If I remove the top melody note from the opening chord, it's still not a dim-chord.
    I'm curious to know more about this, as most people seem to think it's diminished. What chord do you think it is? I assume we're talking about the clip from the film music in post no. 1, where the melody starts after the intro. (unfortunately I can't listen to it at the moment).

  50. #99

    User Info Menu

    Pretty unambiguously dim in the original, you can hear them helpfully playing an arpeggio in the left hand of the piano.



    Dim here, too



    Most jazz versions seem to go II-V though.... Long before Miles....

  51. #100

    User Info Menu

    yes I was listening to the first clip yesterday and I thought it sounded like a diminished run on the piano.