Solo ideas for Billie's Bounce?

[FatJeff]

Hey,

I'm trying to work up a simple solo for Billie's Bounce. Nothing fancy, but something that goes with the changes. I'm tempted to mostly just do F pentatonic but this breaks down when I'm in the iii-VI-ii-V-I section (A-7 D7 G-7 C7). Any ideas?

Thanks for any help.

[derek]

I haven't played BB in a while, but with the chords you lay out, A-7 D7 G-7 C7, that is just a couple of unresolving ii V's moving down a whole step. So rather than seeing it as a iii vi ii V I, I would play off the V, move down a step and play it again. So, maybe a lydian dominant or a diminished type phrase on the D7 over both A-7 and D7, and then play it again a half step down for the G-7 C7.

Or, if you have a ii V lick you like (I have several pet ii V licks), you can use those. Dunno if that helps or not. Good luck with it.

[mr. beaumont]

yeah, you can play off the ii, the V, or heck, even the I...just think about two key centers seperated by a whole step--however, when you play, you don't necessarily have to move downward...

[JohnW400]

You can think in F and it's modes for most of it.

F mixolydian for the F7
F dorian for the Bb7
F major for the C7

You could use F major against the Ami7 as well and F mixolydian against the D7 (you'll get alt 9's against the D7) except you won't have F#. That's not a big deal. just throw it in on the D7 once in a while

The other thing to remember is that Billies Bounce and Straight No Chaser have the same changes. Take a look at Straight NC and see what you can 'borrow" from the melody to use as a tool in Billies Bounce.

[derek]

The other thing to remember is that Billies Bounce and Straight No Chaser have the same changes. Take a look at Straight NC and see what you can 'borrow" from the melody to use as a tool in Billies Bounce.

Now there is the coolest idea thus far. Imo, anytime you can quote the melody of another tune during your solo, and it fits, you have it going on. I have used the melody to Alone Together over Yesterdays before to good effect. Just a matter of learning a bunch of tunes, because we see the same progressions repeating again and again.

[gravitas]

F Blues Scale is cool over any chord in the tune

To take the Straight No Chaser idea one step further, you could easily transport any of your jazzblues ideas into Billie's Bounce and just play that. The heads to Straight No Chaser, Tenor Madness, Blues By Five, Blue Train, Parker's Mood, Sonnymoon for Two, etc etc. all work if you just transpose them to F

[FatJeff]

Very cool ideas - I like the idea of quoting other tunes! Since this is going to be performed in an audition in front of a bunch of stuffy jazz-studies academics, this idea in particular would have a good "wow factor".

[Silence]

I was wondering if anyone had any more ideas for soloing over the iii - VI - ii - V - I section? I just started working on the tune.

[abracadabra]

At this point in my development I don't yet have any "pet licks". Unless you call an ascending m7 arpeggio over ii a pet lick.

lol I think we're in the same boat fatjeff! ha ha

I've been slowly applying all the new stuff I learn to this tune. It's very un-advanced at the moment, but I just play simple scale or arpeggio cells over the Am7 D7 Gm7 C7 section. It works pretty well though. I muck around with the F blues scale and arpeggios with a few scale tones or chromatics thrown in the rest of the time.

I'm sure this post was not very helpful! But I think it's a great tune to start out soloing over as it has a nice mix of blues and ii-V's to work with.

[JohnW400]

Lot's of choices but, keeping it simple to advanced:

Ami pentatonic or blues to Gmi pentatonic/blues
A dorian to G dorian
A melodic minor scale to G melodic minor scale

Theres no need to change the scale for the dominant 7th. so you can think minor for the whole measure. Likewise you can also think dominant 7th for those measures as well so:

D7 mixolydian ( or lydian dominant) to C7 mixolydian (or lydian dominant)

you can also use tritone subs and get a chromatic thing going:

Ami / Ab7 (for D7) / Gmi7 / F#7 (C7)

Once you think like this your scale choices could become:

Ami dorian
Ab Lydian Dominant (same as D alt scale)
G dorian
F# lydian dominant (Same as C alt scale)

And you can always use the whole tone or 1/2-W symmetrical as well

[Nikkoe]

Well, just pointing out again what's been said : what you learn for one blues is good for all others, they're common chord progressions, you shouldn't relearn each tunes as single units unless they have special turnarounds or stuff.

As for the turnaround at the end which seems to be the problem here, one easy way to do it is to use the -7 arpeggios for the minor chord, and the diminished arpeggio starting on the b9 for the dominant ones (that gives you b9, 3, 5 and b7). So, in F, you'd get something like (using 8 notes)

E C A G F# A C Eb | D Bb G F E G Bb Db | C ...

And that's just one example. You can do this and try to resolve on all the other chord tones, not just the fifth (as it was the case here, for C is the 5th of F7).

Have fun!

[lkmuller]

For the III-VI change, use the harmonic minor of the chord it's resolving to, then for the II-V7 you could use the pentatonic of whatever key you're in.

A-7 to D7 (G harmonic minor)
G-7 to C7 (F pentatonic)

What really opens it up is a couple substitutions - A-7b5 D7b9 G-7 C7b9 etc....

[FatJeff]

Some really good ideas in here, thanks to everyone who shared. The audition went well and I got into the program - although my solo was a bit predictable (I stayed mostly diatonic and pentatonic with a few passing and approach notes here and thee to spice things up a bit). Onward and upward! Right now I'm in the process of hammering down All Blues.

[Little Jay]

- although my solo was a bit predictable (I stayed mostly diatonic and pentatonic with a few passing and approach notes here and thee to spice things up a bit).

Predictable?!? Did it sound good? If yes, who cares about sounding predictable then? Soloing is not about showing off to impress and putting all your licks & tricks in one solo is it?

(although I have to admit I would probably try that too while playing for the admission board, but still....)

[FatJeff]

Predictable?!? Did it sound good? If yes, who cares about sounding predictable then? Soloing is not about showing off to impress and putting all your licks & tricks in one solo is it?

(although I have to admit I would probably try that too while playing for the admission board, but still....)

What I meant by that is that I played mostly arpeggios (chord tone notes). There wasn't a lot of "outside" stuff going on. But I wanted to make sure I made the changes, so I stayed with what was comfortable for me at this point.

[LvJz]

Hey,

Just practicing improv over this blues. I was just wondering how the Bdim chord works theory wise in this tune.

Is it acting as a rootless Bb7b9, or is it to accommodate the D note in the melody? (In relation to Bdim, the D would be b3).

Just wondering what Bird was thinking theory wise.

Cheers.

[M-ster]

I noticed recently in one of kris' transcriptions (Joe Pass Relaxin' at Camarillo) that Joe was playing over the dimished passing chord as though it was VII7 - and I liked the sound.

So, in F (in the case of Billie's Bounce), the Bdim7 would be treated as E7.

Er, that doesn't mean that's what Bird was thinking ... !

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That dim7 in measure 6 is very common in Jazz blues -- probably predates Bird.

I think of both measures 5 and 6 as Bb7. It's the blues!

[monk]

In a jazz blues, the Bdim7 serves as a connection from the IV7 (Bb7) back to the I (F) through voice leading.

[edh]

Couldn't it be viewed as a passing tone?

@LvJz, I realize this is your thread. But if may sidetrack for a bit can someone explain how you would play an F7/A chord? I tried googling it but haven't found a information on it.

[M-ster]

F7/A
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]

F7(b9)/A
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]

F7(9)/A ... aka A-7b5
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]

[JonR]

Hey,

Just practicing improv over this blues. I was just wondering how the Bdim chord works theory wise in this tune.

Is it acting as a rootless Bb7b9, or is it to accommodate the D note in the melody? (In relation to Bdim, the D would be b3).

Just wondering what Bird was thinking theory wise.

Cheers.

As monk says, it's basically a bit of voice-leading to link Bb7 back to F7 (Bb-B-C).
You can analyse it as a "common-tone diminished" (cto7) relative to the F, because it's an inverted Fdim7, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

In a jazz blues, that voice-leading line often continues chromatically upward as follows:

Bb7 - Bdim7 - F7/C - A7/C# - D7.. etc (to Gm7-C7-F normally)

We don't know what Bird was thinking, of course, but he certainly liked developing blues (essentially a non-functional music) into complex functional progressions, with subs providing plenty of interesting voice-leading. His solos are heavily arpeggio-based, and of course the quicker and more interesting the changes, the more melodic the arpeggios become as different voice-leading options open up.

[JPMike]

My question would be more, was Bird actually thinking or more like "hearing" stuff in his head???

[JonR]

My question would be more, was Bird actually thinking or more like "hearing" stuff in his head???

Well, composing a tune is a different process from improvising over it.
When composing - when deciding on putting a Bdim7 in there - he would have been using certain deliberate thought processes. At the same time, he would have chosen it because he knew what it would sound like, and how it would work in that position; because he'd heard that sound so often before. IOW, he "heard it in his head" beforehand. "I know the sound I want in there, and I know a Bdim7 will give me that."
He had good enough ears to be able to have worked out the chord by trial and error, with no theoretical knowledge - eg by playing melodic voice-leading lines, forming arpeggios - but I'd be very surprised if he didn't know the theoretical term for the chord.
But he may well have lifted the whole chord sequence from elsewhere anyway. IOW, rather than thinking as above, he might have thought "I know the sound I want for these two bars, and I know |F - F7 - |Bb7 - Bdim7 -|F... will give me that."

The point really is that he has "thought" for long enough - practised all his scales and arpeggios - that he doesn't need to think (consciously or theoretically) when playing, and probably very little when writing. That's how he would have managed to "hear it in his head".

As his famous quote has it: "Learn all your scales; then forget 'em all and just play."
(If you have to think about them while playing, that means you haven't learned them well enough yet.)

[Reg]

F7 / Bb7 Bo7 / C-7 / F7 /
Bb7 etc... There are way to many choices
Don't make voice leading source for determining jazz harmony, pretty boring door.
Reg