The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I have struggled playing lines over this tune for YEARS. now what's been hurting me is how to approach bar 12 onward until the bridge. The melodic statement starts at bar 9, Bb maj. No big deal, then moves to br 10 G-, no big deal, bar 11 is a C9sus chord, can I treat this as a lydian b7? Next is bar 12-C7b9b5 which leads to Bar 13 , a c-. I've been using the Emily Remler meothod, which is incredib;le, and says that any chord that doesn't resolve down a fifth, should not feature a b or #9, and should be treated as a lydian b7, but this chord is altered 9, leading to no resolution of a fifth. that next C-followed by Bdim (G7b9) makes no sense as it doesn't resolve, it just goes back to a c-. What scales, devices apprach methods should I use?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    shoul I reharmonize the changes?

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Interestingly, the Real Book that I have does not have those changes. That's probably because it is wrong, as usual, but the changes everbody used at Berklee were based on the Real book version. Where did you get these changes or did you pick them out by ear?

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    It's funny, b/c all my buddies that went to Berklee became Real Book addicts. Haha. I'm only teasing. Well, I've seen SOOOO many charts on this tune that are differen, since I was a teen. the one I'm talking about is from a book that someone wrote without a publishing company, and has about 600 tunes. It's odd, because (and I think to avoid infringement) the tunes all have codas and repeats, not "A section, B sec, ect" labels. Another wierd thing about this chart on Cherokee is that measure 2 has the change Gm7b5 to Gb7alt. I've seen this bar as F7+. there's too many recorded versions to pick one set of changes from

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I usually play this over that section of the tune:

    Bbmaj7/Bbmaj7/C7#11/C7#11/

    Cm7/Dm7b5 G7alt/Cm7/F7 (1st ending)

    The first five bars is basically the same chords as the first five of "Take the A Train", only in Bb instead of C. That movement of I to II7 to iim7 is pretty common in jazz, though it's not always easy to solo over. I like the 7#11 sound here, the F# resolves nicely down to the F or up to the G on the Cm7 chord once you get there.

    As well, the Bdim7 is just a reharm for G7b9, or G7alt, the V7 of Cm7.

    So the second four bars is just iim7/ V7/iim7 / iim7 / V7/

    The Bdim7, or G7alt, just tonicizes the Cm7 for a couple bars before bringing it all back to the tonic.

    MW

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
    I have struggled playing lines over this tune for YEARS. now what's been hurting me is how to approach bar 12 onward until the bridge. The melodic statement starts at bar 9, Bb maj. No big deal, then moves to br 10 G-, no big deal, bar 11 is a C9sus chord, can I treat this as a lydian b7? Next is bar 12-C7b9b5 which leads to Bar 13 , a c-. I've been using the Emily Remler meothod, which is incredib;le, and says that any chord that doesn't resolve down a fifth, should not feature a b or #9, and should be treated as a lydian b7, but this chord is altered 9, leading to no resolution of a fifth. that next C-followed by Bdim (G7b9) makes no sense as it doesn't resolve, it just goes back to a c-. What scales, devices apprach methods should I use?
    If you want to keep your original changes,
    Csus9 is built either off the dorian or mixolydian modes. A lydian b7 would be a bad idea since the chord has a natural 11 in it while the lydian scale has a #11.
    C7b9b5 is either from an altered or diminished scale. Think C altered (Db melodic minor) or C half-whole diminished.

    The remler explanation is good but it doesn;t apply to all situations. The problem is that all dom7 chords that don't resolve down a fifth are not the same. Usually one that doesn;t is either a tritone sub or an an augmented sixth chord (which is technically a tritone sub anyways). So a dom7 resolving down a half step to another chord is a good time to use lydian b7. Other common uses for lydian b7 are when a dom7 chord is played before a minor chord on the same root. Take the A train is a good example, Cmaj D7 Dmin G7 Cmaj7. The D7 calls for a lydian b7 scale. Another use is when a dom7 resolves up a whole step to a major chord. A common turnaround type progression Cmaj7 Bb7 Cmaj7. Bb lydian b7 sounds a lot better than a scale with altered notes in it.

    The problem you run into is that sometimes chords cannot be explained. Non-functional harmony is out there. Sometimes chords don't go where they are supposed to or where we would expect. This is where you hope that the chord name gives you enough info to play the right notes. A C7b9b5 is fairly detailed, theres little room for arguing which scales will and won't work. In the end it's your ear that will save the day, but a theoretical analysis usually works as well. But at the same time, it is by no means necessary to be a theory whiz to be able to play a tune well.
    did this make any sense

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    does make alot of sense. however a bII7 resolving to a I as a tritone is the same thing as approaching the chord with an altered scale, ponly up a fifth, so the tritone is essntially a b7#11

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I would agree with daveandrea on the Csus9. If that is the chord that you really intend to play over, then be careful with the obvious clash between the natural 4th and the lydian dominant scale. It would be hard to make that sound alright except as a passing tone or for very spicy playing, for lack of a better term. Sus chords, espcially with the natural 9th, usually call for a more diatonic sound like myxolidian.

    On the other hand, I don't see why you would use lydian b7 on these tritone sub chords or on the D7 in Take the A Train. Indeed, those are exactly the kinds of places that go fantastically with altered dominant sounds. b9, #9, #5, and the other tensions. Think about it or just play the altered chords and listen to how natural it sounds. I agree with that Emily Remler chick there. (;

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    It's funny, b/c all my buddies that went to Berklee became Real Book addicts.

    A lot of the people who I met at Berklee were like myself: kiddie rockers who had heard a little bit about fusion or something and knew asbolutely nothing at all about jazz or playing "changes". Many of the teachers relied on the Real Book (there was basically only one or two illegal versions at the time) and the Leavitt books almost as bibles because it was a way of getting people started listening to and learning jazz tunes.

    Many people did become Real Book addicts for a while. But it turned out that most people I knew seem to have gone on to do other things: other styles of music, composing original stuff or whatever.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    The Real Book can be addicting, especially for college students since they need to learn a ton of tunes very quickly. What I've noticed though is that people who learn a bunch of tunes out of the RB don't seem to retain them for very long. Or, they can read them fine but don't really have enough tunes in their memory to play a full gig. It's always better to learn a tune from a recording than a book, if possible.

    MW

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    In the above post, I meant to say that you SHOULD use Lydian dominant on the D7 in "Take the A Train" or G7 in Girl From Ipanema or on the blues and on the tritone sub chord. And that was exactly Emily Remler's point. Sorry about the mild brain confusion.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    A lot of cats also treat the D7 in A Train as a D7#5, so they use either Whole-Tone scales over it, or the 5th mode of melodic minor. Nice addition to the tune with the #5.

    MW

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    which is odd, because now I'm at the point where Emily talks about using a whole-tone over an 7+ chord, but only when it resolves. however, the tension of a nat. 9th doesn't resolve as smoothly as a half-step #9, ect. and the catagory she calls "cat. one, where doms don't resolve down a fifth, cannot feature a raised fifth. but some tunes have the aug that doesnt resolve to anything

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    For me any 7th chord can have alterations as long as the alterations themselves resolve into the next chord. For example, over the first 2 bars of an F blues I use Falt to Bb7 and resolve either the Gb down to the F of the Bb7 chord, or the Db from F7 to the C over the Bb7 chord.

    MW

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by m78w
    The Real Book can be addicting, especially for college students since they need to learn a ton of tunes very quickly. What I've noticed though is that people who learn a bunch of tunes out of the RB don't seem to retain them for very long. Or, they can read them fine but don't really have enough tunes in their memory to play a full gig. It's always better to learn a tune from a recording than a book, if possible.

    MW

    Yes, that's exactly what happened to me. Another thing was that even on tunes I had played hundreds of times in ensembles or jam sessions, I would almost have a panic attack without that damned Bible in front of me. "Wait a minute, isnì't there a Gmin7b5 at the end of the bridge? No, what chord was it now?Where's the book? " Ha.

    "Now, what tune was that we were just playin' again?" "I don't know, it's in the book." "Oh yeah, I remember three or four of those changes.""Close enough".

    But then there were the killer tunes called by other students that you never even heard or saw anything like before. "Let's play that Keith Jarret tune XYZ". "It's in the book." "Oh yeah, there it is right there. 9/5, key of G#, 19 bars, etc.."

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    C7 in Bb is the dominant of the dominant (V of V), so you´re in F there for a little while.Extensions are optional and a matter of taste and style.No big deal.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzyteach65
    shoul I reharmonize the changes?
    That's something that I strongly recommend - get your own angle on this tune, there are too many out there all playing the same shit - I have just finished a reharmonisation for guitar and I have come up with some really 'outside' chords that sound great but it's going to take me a couple of weeks to get it down because I have given myself plenty of stretches, many of which are up to six frets but eventually I will film myself doing this and post it to You Tube so keep a look out if you are interested - in the meantime I wouldn't get too hung up on scales and modes as these are virtually useless when you have to think quickly when playing over the changes - you need to develop a more melodic approach and create lines of your own that sound good. The way I have been doing this is to use a midi sequencer and programme the changes in. My midi band is hammond organ, vibes, bass and drums over which I play guitar in real time and by putting the sequencer on a loop I can run the entire 64 bar sequence of Cherokee repeatedly over and over again which gives me the chance to experiment. Doing it this way it doesn't matter if I mess up someway along the road because I'll always get another go the next time round. Another great thing to do is to write out an improvisational model (yes I know that's a contradiction in terms but you know where I'm coming from) and then learn it note for note. When you have learnt the model completely by heart then start improvising on it - there is no cosmic magic about all this - it's purely down to applying discipline and hard work and not wasting hours or days pursuing useless strategies. Finally do you know what the best situation is - yeah you got it in one - find opportunities to play with other likeminded musicians and share your ideas together and encourage each other - I hope I'm not coming on like some lecturer here - I'm just offering my advice having had over 40 years of experience and I wish you the best.