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View Poll Results: How many Charlie Parker tunes do you know?

Voters
75. You may not vote on this poll
  • I don't know any

    16 21.33%
  • A couple

    32 42.67%
  • A half dozen or so

    17 22.67%
  • At least a dozen, probably a few more

    6 8.00%
  • Twenty, easy, probably more

    4 5.33%
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  1. #226

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    Art...man...one of my little jazz wisdoms I give to people getting into jazz is that if it has Art Blakey on drums, it's probably worth hearing.

    as to Parker.

    He's someone I haven't transcribed much of, just a few licks here and there...I should do more, I suppose. I don't know how much I'd get out of it at this point, I certainly don't have the technical facility to pull some of it off in "real time."

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  3. #227

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    In thinking about a theme of this thread, one name popped into my head: Miles. I love a lot of his material and some of his bands and recordings are among my all-time favorites. He had a distinctive way of blowing the horn but I don't think it can be said he changed the way most trumpet players played. (I mean physically play---hold, finger, blow--their trumpets.)

    I say this because there seems to be a suggestion that being an influential jazz musician means changing the way people play that same instrument (and other instrumentalists play their instruments). I don't think that's, um, a clear idea. (It may be a good one, it may be true, but I'm not clear on what truth is being claimed.)

    To take a simple example: Max Roach was a wildly influential drummer, as was Elvin Jones, but they didn't invent some new way of hitting a snare drum or ride cymbal. They are both giants. They were both great. They were innovative. Any band they played with was better for having them. But they didn't reinvent the snare drum or something. Miles didn't reinvent the trumpet. And I'm not sure how one might say Charlie Parker's playing changed the way, say, Clifford Brown played a trumpet or Oscar Peterson played a piano.

    I love Bird too and think his tone was distinctive. (I think the main thing about Bird and Coltrane---and Miles, for that matter---among non-musicians is simply their tone. They express a lot of feeling with their basic tones.) But I don't know how much he changed the way people play alto saxophone. (I'm not saying he didn't. I don't play alto sax, or any sax, and don't know how Bird's mechanics influenced those of, well, most bebop alto players since.) And I really don't know what it would even mean to suggest he changed the way Wes played guitar or Elvin Jones played drums or Horace Silver played piano.

  4. #228

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    All great points!!! I guess my main contention on this guitarist as an innovator that changed the music of jazz through their playing is that I have never had a horn player,pianist,drummer,vocalist etc. call 4on6, Bright Size Life, Minor Swing, Cisco,El Hombre, West Coast Blues, etc. But on many many gigs I've been on Now's the Time,All Blues,Blue in Green, So What,Joy Spring etc. Are called and there is an expectation that I know these tunes.I believe that all of the other instruments have dominated the growth/progress of jazz up to now, this current generation. As innovative a guitarist and beloved giant master of jazz that Wes is horn players don't know his tunes. Yet here we are talking about how many Bird tunes we know. Ha ha ha. As an aside the number one jazz guitar tune that audience and other instrumentalist request in my experience is Breezin' mostly associated with Benson even though Gabor Szabo made an earlier version that is super tasty.
    Last edited by eddy b.; 03-25-2015 at 02:02 PM.

  5. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    In thinking about a theme of this thread, one name popped into my head: Miles. I love a lot of his material and some of his bands and recordings are among my all-time favorites. He had a distinctive way of blowing the horn but I don't think it can be said he changed the way most trumpet players played. (I mean physically play---hold, finger, blow--their trumpets.)

    I say this because there seems to be a suggestion that being an influential jazz musician means changing the way people play that same instrument (and other instrumentalists play their instruments). I don't think that's, um, a clear idea. (It may be a good one, it may be true, but I'm not clear on what truth is being claimed.)

    To take a simple example: Max Roach was a wildly influential drummer, as was Elvin Jones, but they didn't invent some new way of hitting a snare drum or ride cymbal. They are both giants. They were both great. They were innovative. Any band they played with was better for having them. But they didn't reinvent the snare drum or something. Miles didn't reinvent the trumpet. And I'm not sure how one might say Charlie Parker's playing changed the way, say, Clifford Brown played a trumpet or Oscar Peterson played a piano.

    I love Bird too and think his tone was distinctive. (I think the main thing about Bird and Coltrane---and Miles, for that matter---among non-musicians is simply their tone. They express a lot of feeling with their basic tones.) But I don't know how much he changed the way people play alto saxophone. (I'm not saying he didn't. I don't play alto sax, or any sax, and don't know how Bird's mechanics influenced those of, well, most bebop alto players since.) And I really don't know what it would even mean to suggest he changed the way Wes played guitar or Elvin Jones played drums or Horace Silver played piano.
    I can't speak for others, but when I say "changed the way people played" I'm not talking about mechanics...I'm talking about note choice, rhythm, tone, all that...

  6. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Some odd statistics,

    at the moment, there are more than 200 posts in this thread, 41 vote, less than 10 people gave the names of, or the list of the tunes they know (to play), one of the only two who posted their playing is me and I voted "I don't know any".
    If you want another video here's one of me and Dutchbopper playing Jordu (ok I know it's not by Parker).

    We have never met in person so some technological wizardry was used!


  7. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddy b.
    All great points!!! I guess my main contention on this guitarist as an innovator that changed the music of jazz through their playing is that I have never had a horn player,pianist,drummer,vocalist etc. call 4on6, Bright Size Life, Minor Swing, Cisco,El Hombre, West Coast Blues, etc. But on many many gigs I've been on Now's the Time,All Blues,Blue in Green, So What,Joy Spring etc. Are called and there is an expectation that I know these tunes.I believe that all of the other instruments have dominated the growth/progress of jazz up to now, this current generation. As innovative a guitarist and beloved giant master of jazz that Wes is horn players don't know his tunes. .
    It's probably because we're a lot more broad minded than horn players are! ;o)

  8. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    If you want another video here's one of me and Dutchbopper playing Jordu (ok I know it's not by Parker).

    We have never met in person so some technological wizardry was used! ...
    Yes, I already listened to that one, some time ago in one different thread about I don't know what. You're good.

  9. #233

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    About Parker's tone and the way he changed what people played ...

    Others have commented on Parker's phrasing, articulation, and timing. At the moment I accept on faith that these are distinctive, and perhaps more than I can appreciate at this stage of my journey.

    While not to detract from the totality of Parker's genius, some elements of his phrasing and vocabulary were heavily used before him. For example, buried somewhere around the house I have a Louis Armstrong transcription that came out of Scott Reeves' book Creative Jazz Improvisation (4th Edition) and that has significant across-the-bar phrasing, enclosure, and IIRC some sidestepping. I have heard at least one Armstrong clip where the rhythm section seems unable to keep up! I will look for these things, but I fear they may have been lost in a move.

    The three things that seem distinctive about Parker to me are

    1. His speed
    2. His vocabulary including the liberal use of bebop scales.
    3. His ability to put everything together high tempo.


    These are not the only great thing about him, but they are the three distinctive things of which I am aware at the moment. The second item, vocabulary, seems to me to be a way that he (and Diz) influenced how people after him play.

    As for tone ... It is difficult to separate a player's tone from the rest of their presentation, but people do it, myself included. That said, I have to say that I find Parker's tone beautiful, but not earthshakingly so or in any way pioneering. I find it easier to focus on his tone in his slower presentations, and this is the best one I've run across in terms of tone:


  10. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    The three things that seem distinctive about Parker to me are

    1. His speed
    2. His vocabulary including the liberal use of bebop scales.
    3. His ability to put everything together high tempo.
    I think you're overlooking Rhythm.

  11. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think you're overlooking Rhythm.
    I think that is fair, although phrasing is related in my mind, but thank you just the same. And while we are on the subject of what I overlooked, how about melody? Charlie Parker was melodic, even at speed.

  12. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    I think that is fair, although phrasing is related in my mind, but thank you just the same. And while we are on the subject of what I overlooked, how about melody? Charlie Parker was melodic, even at speed.
    Oh yes, very melodic. What I meant by rhythm is that in all Bird's solos, there are amazing rhythmic games and variations going on that I think you would have rarely heard before he came along. For example Coleman Hawkins was harmonically advanced and could eat up the chord changes with virtuosity, but not displaying those rhythms.

    If you slow one of Bird's solos down and try to play along, even if you know the correct notes, trying to match his rhythmic complexities and 'elasticity' is incredibly difficult.

  13. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Yes, I already listened to that one, some time ago in one different thread about I don't know what. You're good.
    Thanks Vladan. There's always room for improvement though!

    Actually I think it's really useful to record yourself. You hear the weak points that you don't notice while playing. Then you know what to focus on to improve.

  14. #238

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    Re: Mark's post-

    Except Max and Elvin did re-invent how the drum set is played in jazz.

    And it's likely that the approach of the Coltrane Quartet (which remains influential) was - in part - developed to capitalize on the sound and approach of Elvin Jones.

    From the Washington Post Obit:

    "Mr. Roach's most significant innovations came in the 1940s, when he and another jazz drummer, Kenny Clarke, devised a new concept of musical time. By playing the beat-by-beat pulse on the "ride" cymbal instead of on the thudding bass drum, Roach and Clarke developed a flexible, flowing rhythmic pattern that allowed soloists to play freely. The new approach also left space for the drummer to insert dramatic accents on the snare drum, "crash" cymbal and other components of the trap set.
    By matching his rhythmic attack with a tune's melody, Mr. Roach brought a newfound subtlety of expression to his instrument. He often shifted the dynamic emphasis from one part of his drum kit to another within a single phrase, creating a sense of tonal color and movement.


    Virtually every jazz drummer plays in that manner today, but in the 1940s, it was a revolutionary musical advance."

    But to Mark's point about Miles and to bring this back to the OP a bit, a musician's influence can be multi- dimensional. Is Miles more important as a trumpet player, composer, musical conceptualist, or band leader ( including who he hires and how much control he delegates)? And Parker? Player, theorist, and composer. He's like Bach. Like him or not, he's directly and indirectly responsible for the development of our language - the language of jazz and music in general. If you are serious about music you would be wise to study and understand it.
    Last edited by rictroll; 03-25-2015 at 07:10 PM. Reason: add stuff

  15. #239

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    Grahambop & Dutchbopper.

    Congrats on the Jordu rendition, I've heard it previously but it's
    certainly worth another listen , absolute bliss.


    Best.

  16. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by rictroll
    Except Max and Elvin did re-invent how the drum set is played in jazz.

    And it's likely that the approach of the Coltrane Quartet (which remains influential) was - in part - developed to capitalize on the sound and approach of Elvin Jones.
    I absolutely love that 'afro-latin' polyrhythmic groove that Elvin patented (I don't know the correct name for it!). I don't think anyone played the drums like this before Elvin. Art Blakey did some things which were a bit similar, but Elvin just took it to a whole new level.

    Here's a classic example. I have listened to this track loads of times, and I still can't figure out the drum pattern Elvin does here. It sounds like he is constantly fitting more sub-divisions of beats into the bar than there can possibly be.

    This performance always takes me 'out of this world'!


  17. #241

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I absolutely love that 'afro-latin' polyrhythmic groove that Elvin patented (I don't know the correct name for it!). I don't think anyone played the drums like this before Elvin. Art Blakey did some things which were a bit similar, but Elvin just took it to a whole new level.

    Here's a classic example. I have listened to this track loads of times, and I still can't figure out the drum pattern Elvin does here. It sounds like he is constantly fitting more sub-divisions of beats into the bar than there can possibly be.

    This performance always takes me 'out of this world'!

    Always amazed by this band. Thanks for reminding me.

  18. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Thanks Vladan. There's always room for improvement though!

    Actually I think it's really useful to record yourself. You hear the weak points that you don't notice while playing. Then you know what to focus on to improve.
    Especially when I listen to something I recorded long ago enough to become distanced. Usually in what I thought was good I hear all possible problems, mostly with timing , while what I thought was total crap suddenly becomes interesting and not bad at all.

    Let's not divert the thread to one more sub topic.

  19. #243

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    I know Ornithology, Bill's Bounce, Blues for Alice, Little Suede Shoes (from a workshop- don't care for the tune), maybe a couple more I can't recall off-hand. I like Anthropology so maybe I'll work on that. When it comes to Bird I stick to the heads. I don't want to spend time on the solos.

  20. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon

    As for tone ... It is difficult to separate a player's tone from the rest of their presentation, but people do it, myself included. That said, I have to say that I find Parker's tone beautiful, but not earthshakingly so or in any way pioneering. I find it easier to focus on his tone in his slower presentations, and this is the best one I've run across in terms of tone:
    I agree and more. For me Parker's tone is the reason I'm not the biggest fan of him. I find it rather on the harsher side.. And reading an interview of another legend sax player, I know I'm not alone in thinking that Parker's tone is the least appealing element of his style.

  21. #245

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    This may sound stupid , but i don't know the answer. Why the horn? i mean... things couldn't have been easy for black folks in those days. And i think a horn would be, one of the more costly instruments.and id think hard to get. was not like they were in every corner store!!!. where did all these horns come from? and get into the hands of a very discriminated people group in those days. I hope that's not a Racist question. i hate everyone equally. but would love some in-site , not a war lol

  22. #246

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pocket Player
    This may sound stupid , but i don't know the answer. Why the horn? i mean... things couldn't have been easy for black folks in those days. And i think a horn would be, one of the more costly instruments.and id think hard to get. was not like they were in every corner store!!!. where did all these horns come from? and get into the hands of a very discriminated people group in those days. I hope that's not a Racist question. i hate everyone equally. but would love some in-site , not a war lol
    I remember hearing that a lot of the instruments were passed around during the civil war, so after blacks were allowed to join the army they had access to horns and other European marching instruments, and were taught to play European marching music. I'm pretty sure all the new Orleans stuff has its roots in marching bands, I would say when guys from that area spread out they took their music with them. But I'm no American historian, I'm not even American! I'm more interested in how the double bass played pizzicato found its way into American folk music.

  23. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    I agree and more. For me Parker's tone is the reason I'm not the biggest fan of him. I find it rather on the harsher side.. And reading an interview of another legend sax player, I know I'm not alone in thinking that Parker's tone is the least appealing element of his style.
    Bear in mind, some of those recordings were quite primitive and probably only capture the part of Bird's tone which could cut through.

    Some of the ballad recordings probably give a better idea of how full his tone really was.

    Did that sax player ever hear him live? It makes a big difference.

    I once heard Dexter Gordon at Ronnie Scotts, and believe me, I have never heard a sound like that from any sax player. Even the modern recordings do not fully capture Dexter's sound. It completely filled the club, it was a massive 'wide' tone that seemed to come from all directions in the room. He started playing as soon as he left the dressing-room backstage, and his sound did NOT get any louder when he approached the mike and went through the PA system. I have never heard that happen before, and I saw most of the famous sax players at Ronnie Scotts.

  24. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pocket Player
    This may sound stupid , but i don't know the answer. Why the horn? ...
    Maybe because horns are part of a community effort, and certainly were appropriate for a lot of the early New Orleans jazz. Also simply because many of these musicians preferred horns, perhaps because horns are closer to singing than guitar and piano.

  25. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Bear in mind, some of those recordings were quite primitive and probably only capture the part of Bird's tone which could cut through.

    Some of the ballad recordings probably give a better idea of how full his tone really was. ...
    But some of them were not at all primitive for the time and convey beautiful tone. Coleman Hawkins playing Body and Soul is the first that comes to mind for me. Illinois Jacquet playing Flyin' Home is another, and not a ballad either. IIRC the seminal Hawk version was done in 1939, and Jacquet's famous recording with Lionel Hampton was in 1942.

    One wonders why Parker did not usually record as well.

  26. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by rictroll
    Re: Mark's post-

    Except Max and Elvin did re-invent how the drum set is played in jazz.
    Even if one grants this, it does not follow that they changed the way other instrumentalists played THEIR instruments. This was the caveat about Wes' influence, that it was very guitar-centric, that it didn't change the way other people (horn players, drummers, pianists) played their instruments. I'm not sure that's a clear standard.

    Earlier, someone pointed out how rhythmic Bird's playing was and someone else mentioned that Bird had played drums. I think that rhythmic quality of Bird's playing----like bebop drumming----is important. But I don't know if he got that from Max Roach or Kenny Clarke or it was a separate development....