The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary

View Poll Results: How many Charlie Parker tunes do you know?

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75. You may not vote on this poll
  • I don't know any

    16 21.33%
  • A couple

    32 42.67%
  • A half dozen or so

    17 22.67%
  • At least a dozen, probably a few more

    6 8.00%
  • Twenty, easy, probably more

    4 5.33%
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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    I worked on a couple, last one was Scrapple from the Apple, but like alot of his music, I quickly forgot it.
    Charlie Parker was an interesting person, but his music is a major turn-off for me and his solos are unlistenable. Its like 200 bpm note-vomit.

    Wow!!! Shocking statement!!! Everyone has their personal likes and dislikes about music....but on a Jazz Guitar Forum to say this about CP ??? I'm still stunned in shock....wait....is it April 1st today? ...unfortunately not.

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  3. #202

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    Here we go again... make up your mind, can we be objective about what makes great art, or not? If the appreciation of all art is subjective, then how did "great art" get to be become great art?

    Are Bird and Trane "great"? Or were they just accidentally deified by "a la mode" media forces and/or public hysteria in much the same way that fashion pushes "artists" like Kanye West and Jayzee up the charts?

    That's right, there's no answer, so stop trying to have it both ways. You can't say that no art is greater than any other, and then decide that there is "great" art, which implies that some art must be less than great! LOL!
    I can. Please, check my previous post - as said there that it is neither subjective, not objective that I was talking about considering judgement.. that's why 'both ways' as you called are possible...

    I do not want to continue this too here, and appologize if being too emotional provoked this off-top. Just wanted to let you know that I do not take it that simple... if you wich I can always keep the discussion in another thread or in private...

    And yes Mark, let's get back to what your thread asks. It's a great topic. I often wonder how far into Parker us guitarists should really go, by pondering- "How far into Wes should sax players really go"...
    I don't think they should or would, mostly take guitar as supplimentary, secondary instrument... though I actually heard form a few clarinet, sax players that they 'envied' harmonic possibilities of guitar, one of them also said that 'guitarists begin to play in chords and that makes them involved in harmonic hearing and thinking from the very beginning.. and we (horn players) begin with lines and often underestimate harmony until we encounter problems with it' ... unfortunately it is partly true especially if the educators are not really good to push them into it.
    Guitar has its place in jazz, it has even certain 'image' in profane audience and it is not associated with horn imitation... the fact that CC or Wes tried to imitate horns is connected more with vocal nature of jazz, they tried to sound voice... it is more difficult on guitar than on the horn... but it does not mean they put themselves behind the horns, just took the best and applied it to guitar possibilities...
    No sax can imitate chordal colo of Wes.. special drive of his octaves, sharp attack of Grant Green... broken arpeggiato style of chord melodies played with a pick... and all that is also associated with jazz sound

    As per Wes... he is great, but his impact is very instrumental... say.. if he were a sax player he would not have been Parker or Trane.

    Bird really had something Mozartian in his approach to music, he obviously had some revelations of which he himself probalbly was both enchanted and terrified, music was a kind of mystical experience for him... I remember in one interview he said something like: I here a note that I have to play but I cannot hit it, i get very close to it but cannot get into it... It was not metaphorical he did not seem to be this kind of guy... I am sure he spoke about 'tritone' in certain context ('close to it') - when he plays I feel at moments that he is getting into point where local functiional relations between tonic and dominant like get 'froxen' - the point of balance - neither makes more tension... and I litterally feel that he tries to use this point as a gate.. he tries to go further... obviously it is impossible because then he would have lost connection with the context... but it was not needed, that aspiration that what was needed... he really had mystical experince with I am more than sure... and probably more than Trane who conciously developed a system for it.

    And Wes was a great story-teller, he was here, one of us, he was not obsessed with it just ame out and told great stories about what he loved best... about what we love
    Last edited by Jonah; 03-25-2015 at 04:16 AM.

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I can. Please, check my previous post - as said there that it is neither subjective, not objective that I was talking about considering judgement.. that's why 'both ways' as you called are possible...
    OK, I may have misunderstood, still, it was a point worth making. We're all on a slippery slope when it comes to subjectivity in art...

  5. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Y'know, PP, I'll get the mess beat out of me for saying it on a guitar forum, but as influential as Wes was to guitar players, he really didn't innovate anything musically. He was just the best damn hard bop playin' guitarist ever (IMHO)

    And that's fine!

    Parker, with a few others, changed jazz--the whole course of the music-- forever.

    So back to Parker...I'm learning Anthropology as a result of this thread. It's kicking my ass.
    Am inclined to agree, but in defence of Wes, we should all remember the story of how he came to the attention of Orin Keepnews. It was the Adderley brothers, who's minds were well and truly blown upon hearing Wes perform in some club. The went running into the night to make a 2 am phone call to Orin saying " You gotta hear this guy, he's doin' all this crazy shit, and we have no idea what he's doing!"

    The Adderleys, of course were no slouches themselves...

  6. #205
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I can. Please, check my previous post - as said there that it is neither subjective, not objective that I was talking about considering judgement.. that's why 'both ways' as you called are possible...

    I do not want to continue this too here, and appologize if being too emotional provoked this off-top. Just wanted to let you know that I do not take it that simple... if you wich I can always keep the discussion in another thread or in private...



    I don't think they should or would, mostly take guitar as supplimentary, secondary instrument... though I actually heard form a few clarinet, sax players that they 'envied' harmonic possibilities of guitar, one of them also said that 'guitarists begin to play in chords and that makes them involved in harmonic hearing and thinking from the very beginning.. and we (horn players) begin with lines and often underestimate harmony until we encounter problems with it' ... unfortunately it is partly true especially if the educators are not really good to push them into it.
    Guitar has its place in jazz, it has even certain 'image' in profane audience and it is not associated with horn imitation... the fact that CC or Wes tried to imitate horns is connected more with vocal nature of jazz, they tried to sound voice... it is more difficult on guitar than on the horn... but it does not mean they put themselves behind the horns, just took the best and applied it to guitar possibilities...
    No sax can imitate chordal colo of Wes.. special drive of his octaves, sharp attack of Grant Green... broken arpeggiato style of chord melodies played with a pick... and all that is also associated with jazz sound

    As per Wes... he is great, but his impact is very instrumental... say.. if he were a sax player he would not have been Parker or Trane.

    Bird really had something Mozartian in his approach to music, he obviously had some revelations of which he himself probalbly was both enchanted and terrified, music was a kind of mystical experience for him... I remember in one interview he said something like: I here a note that I have to play but I cannot hit it, i get very close to it but cannot get into it... It was not metaphorical he did not seem to be this kind of guy... I am sure he spoke about 'tritone' in certain context ('close to it') - when he plays I feel at moments that he is getting into point where local functiional relations between tonic and dominant like get 'froxen' - the point of balance - neither makes more tension... and I litterally feel that he tries to use this point as a gate.. he tries to go further... obviously it is impossible because then he would have lost connection with the context... but it was not needed, that aspiration that what was needed... he really had mystical experince with I am more than sure... and probably more than Trane who conciously developed a system for it.

    And Wes was a great story-teller, he was here, one of us, he was not obsessed with it just ame out and told great stories about what he loved best... about what we love
    I really enjoyed this post. Thank you!

  7. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Am inclined to agree, but in defence of Wes, we should all remember the story of how he came to the attention of Orin Keepnews. It was the Adderley brothers, who's minds were well and truly blown upon hearing Wes perform in some club. The went running into the night to make a 2 am phone call to Orin saying " You gotta hear this guy, he's doin' all this crazy shit, and we have no idea what he's doing!"

    The Adderleys, of course were no slouches themselves...
    exactly. to say that someone innovated on a musical instrument but not in music, isn't really logical.

    perhaps Jeff means his compositions weren't innovative.

    Wes innovated musically in a number of ways, which are very easy to list.

  8. #207

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    Some odd statistics,

    at the moment, there are more than 200 posts in this thread, 41 vote, less than 10 people gave the names of, or the list of the tunes they know (to play), one of the only two who posted their playing is me and I voted "I don't know any".

    Honorable mention of destinytot for posting own composition in notation.

  9. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    exactly. to say that someone innovated on a musical instrument but not in music, isn't really logical.

    perhaps Jeff means his compositions weren't innovative.

    Wes innovated musically in a number of ways, which are very easy to list.
    I wouldn't mind seeing your list.

    I think there's a few obvious things, like the thumb, which had never been done like that before...but guitar players everywhere didn't throw away all their picks...Wes also could solo in octaves like no one else, but he didn't invent that idea.

    I dunno...I stick to my guns--Wes definitely changed the way guitar was played, but not through innovation--he did it by raising the bar. So I don't think jazz as a whole changed it's sound because of Wes...I just think a new standard was set for guitar players. A lot of cats might have thought they were hot stuff...and then they heard Wes.

    But maybe this is a different thread for a different day. But it could be an interesting one...I think the list of real game changers in jazz is pretty small...and very horn-dominated.

  10. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Am inclined to agree, but in defence of Wes, we should all remember the story of how he came to the attention of Orin Keepnews. It was the Adderley brothers, who's minds were well and truly blown upon hearing Wes perform in some club. The went running into the night to make a 2 am phone call to Orin saying " You gotta hear this guy, he's doin' all this crazy shit, and we have no idea what he's doing!"

    The Adderleys, of course were no slouches themselves...
    That's a great story. Another, more recent one, concerns Sonny Rollins giving the names of two guys he considered to be total jazz masters: Elvin Jones (drums) and Wes Montgomery (guitar).

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I wouldn't mind seeing your list.

    I think there's a few obvious things, like the thumb, which had never been done like that before...but guitar players everywhere didn't throw away all their picks...Wes also could solo in octaves like no one else, but he didn't invent that idea.

    I dunno...I stick to my guns--Wes definitely changed the way guitar was played, but not through innovation--he did it by raising the bar. So I don't think jazz as a whole changed it's sound because of Wes...I just think a new standard was set for guitar players. A lot of cats might have thought they were hot stuff...and then they heard Wes.

    But maybe this is a different thread for a different day. But it could be an interesting one...I think the list of real game changers in jazz is pretty small...and very horn-dominated.
    yep, its a different thread, lol.

    but,

    you nailed it, the thumb playing, octaves, and three part solo approach (horn lines, octaves, chords).

    Wes was the only major jazz player who extensively used the thumb, and played melodies and improvised solos in octaves. Others certainly played octaves but not like him, not the way he featured them so emphatically.

    the test? when someone plays the guitar like him, it is immediately obvious who they are aping, err i mean copying, err i mean ripping off, err i mean emulating. they aren't referencing someone before him, or someone after. it's him.

    case for innovation, made.

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I think the list of real game changers in jazz is pretty small...and very horn-dominated.
    Well, there's the piano: Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Bud Powell, Monk. Nat Cole (first) and Oscar Peterson with drummerless trios made a real big difference too.

    Though it is not as well known, even among guitarists, as it should be, Barney Kessel's playing on Her Name Is Julie" (-her voice, his guitar and an upright bass made all the sounds on that great record) had a huge influence on what came to be known as Bossa Nova. When Jobim met Kessell later, he (Jobim) thanked Kessel for giving him so many harmonic ideas!

    Here's Barney backing Julie London on "Cry Me A River." This was a huge hit and shows one reason Barney was such an important guitarist.



    Here's "I'm In The Mood For Love," a track I prefer. Barney's playing here set a new standard for comping for singers.

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    That's a great story. Another, more recent one, concerns Sonny Rollins giving the names of two guys he considered to be total jazz masters: Elvin Jones (drums) and Wes Montgomery (guitar).
    Say, didn't you hear that from me? I think I reported that here on this forum recently after I heard him say that in the flesh at a post concert talk he gave a year or two ago. He absolutely did single out those 2 very players, and emphasised " total " when calling them total masters...

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Well, there's the piano: Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Bud Powell, Monk. Nat Cole (first) and Oscar Peterson with drummerless trios made a real big difference too.
    If you're talking piano playing game changers, then I guess you oughta include Bill Evans, Herbie, McCoy, maybe Chick and Jarret.... Mehldau even...

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    exactly. to say that someone innovated on a musical instrument but not in music, isn't really logical.

    perhaps Jeff means his compositions weren't innovative.

    Wes innovated musically in a number of ways, which are very easy to list.
    And some that are downright impossible to list. Even if you just consider his single line playing, his melodicism is not just unrivalled, it's darn uncanny. There are more twists and turns in some of his solos than in most of the great horn or piano soloists (IMO). His note choices, devices and harmonic concept were also fresh at the time. Sure, only guitar players were influenced by him, certainly Benson and Martino, but I did sense that the organ, piano and horn players that played with Wes picked up a few of his nuances...

    Who knows why horns and piano players don't really copy the guitar greats (if Miles copied CC, then I can't hear it!). I hang out on sax forums, and when the topic comes up, quite a few players say things like "yeah, there's a few guitar things I wish we could play, like Hendrix..." They seem to like Rock/Blues bendy licks, the kind we're all too embarrassed to admit we used to play! Haha
    Last edited by princeplanet; 03-25-2015 at 10:40 AM.

  16. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

    ....I dunno...I stick to my guns--Wes definitely changed the way guitar was played, but not through innovation--he did it by raising the bar. So I don't think jazz as a whole changed it's sound because of Wes...I just think a new standard was set for guitar players. A lot of cats might have thought they were hot stuff...and then they heard Wes.....

    .

    To stir the pot a little, I've read in more than a few interviews with the older players that Charlie didn't bring all that much new material to the table. In the Mr B quote above, just substitute Bird for Wes, and that about sums up their view on Bird. They say that apart from the rhythmic displacement and some new licks using upper chord partials, he was just a "sped up Lester Young". I'm not saying I can agree or disagree, I can't be sure, I mean I hear a difference between Bird and the predecessors, as well as the copycats. But then I can say the same thing for Wes.

    The fact that Bird influenced everyone and Wes influenced only some guitarists should not diminish Wes's stature as an innovative genius. I might even (subjectively!!) offer that Wes was Bird's equal in many ways, whether the history books say so or not!

  17. #216

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    Well, I certainly hope I'm not diminishing Wes in any way...I think he's the best there ever was.

  18. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Well, I certainly hope I'm not diminishing Wes in any way...I think he's the best there ever was.
    Guitarist, or Musician?

  19. #218

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    Best damn hard bop guitar player ever, and on the Mt. Rushmore of hard bop in general

  20. #219

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Best damn hard bop guitar player ever, and on the Mt. Rushmore of hard bop in general
    Yeah, so who else is carved into the cliff face next to Wes on that "Mt Rushmore of Hard Bop"? Rollins? Trane? Miles?

    Great idea for a new monument! Maybe Bill Clinton can pull some strings at the next Skull and Crossbones meet...

  21. #220

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    Lol...

    Hmmm...for me, Lee Morgan, Ron Carter, Sonny Clark, Art Blakey, Benny Golson, maybe Cannonball...

    It's probably just some iteration of the Messengers, right?

  22. #221

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    Back to Parker's music, the music is where it all happens.

    The Classic Yardbird Suite.


  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Well, there's the piano: Fats Waller, Art Tatum, Bud Powell, Monk. Nat Cole (first) and Oscar Peterson with drummerless trios made a real big difference too.

    Though it is not as well known, even among guitarists, as it should be, Barney Kessel's playing on Her Name Is Julie" (-her voice, his guitar and an upright bass made all the sounds on that great record) had a huge influence on what came to be known as Bossa Nova. When Jobim met Kessell later, he (Jobim) thanked Kessel for giving him so many harmonic ideas!

    Here's Barney backing Julie London on "Cry Me A River." This was a huge hit and shows one reason Barney was such an important guitarist.



    Here's "I'm In The Mood For Love," a track I prefer. Barney's playing here set a new standard for comping for singers.

    Thank you for that. I did not know about the connection between Kessel/Julie is Her Name and Jobim. This work was influential in other ways too:


    Quote Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
    ... Julie is Her Name [was] originally published as Volume I (1955) and Volume II (1958). This is still some of my favorite music ... Volume I featured Barney Kessel on guitar and Ray Leatherwood on bass, and Volume II featured Howard Roberts on guitar with Red Mitchell on bass. At least one source says that after the success of Julie Is Her Name, "every uptown singer -- from Johnny Mathis to Chet Baker to Sarah Vaughan -- was recording with a guitar/bass duo". ...
    Nothing against Howard Roberts, but I imagine that Volume I with Barney Kessel clearly led the way. If nothing else, it was 3 years ahead of Volume II.

  24. #223
    destinytot Guest
    They say that apart from the rhythmic displacement and some new licks using upper chord partials, he was just a "sped up Lester Young".
    I can buy that, but "just" seems to mock mere mortals.

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Lol...

    Hmmm...for me, Lee Morgan, Ron Carter, Sonny Clark, Art Blakey, Benny Golson, maybe Cannonball...

    It's probably just some iteration of the Messengers, right?
    If we add Jackie McClean, will they all fit? Speaking of Jackie Mac, I think he has great lines for us guitar wackers. Never seen a Jackie Mac Omnibook. Is there even a Dexter one? Another great one for guitar lines, methinks.

    But yeah, back to Bird. I think I learned the Koko and Billie's Bounce solos a few years back. But the lines, or even the cells, never seem to appear in my playing. I guess at bottom I just don't wanna sound like that, as great as it is... I probably prefer all the greats who stole shit of Bird and straightened it out a little. And yes Mr B, just about every soloist that Blakey ever found for the Messengers is right up my alley too.

    Art Blakey- please, at the very least, can we have an Art Blakey monument?

  26. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Say, didn't you hear that from me? I think I reported that here on this forum recently after I heard him say that in the flesh at a post concert talk he gave a year or two ago. He absolutely did single out those 2 very players, and emphasised " total " when calling them total masters...
    Probably! I sometimes forget where I heard things. Thanks for clearing that up. (I was wondering where it came from.)