View Poll Results: How many Charlie Parker tunes do you know?

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75. You may not vote on this poll
  • I don't know any

    16 21.33%
  • A couple

    32 42.67%
  • A half dozen or so

    17 22.67%
  • At least a dozen, probably a few more

    6 8.00%
  • Twenty, easy, probably more

    4 5.33%
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Well I seriously feel sorry for you if you can't dig that. From what I've read on the subject, most jazz musicians consider that to be one of the greatest expressions of Parker's music ever recorded. It's drenched in the feeling of the blues for a start.

    But then you're the guy who prefers the heads and doesn't like solos and improvisation much, if I recall.

    Which jazz musicians do you like? Is there a single jazz solo you DO like listening to?
    Freddie Hubbard - Red Clay (the version with George Benson, nice solo, nice vibe)
    Freddie Hubbard - Little Sunflower
    Miles Davis- Love for Sale
    Mal Waldron - Fire Waltz
    Jack McDuff -The Shadow of Your Smile
    Anything Lonnie Liston Smith
    Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Loving You
    Thelonius Monk - Blue Monk
    Anything Wes Montgomery
    Almost anything Grant Green, transcribing the solo of his version of Bedouin
    Hank Mobley - Greasin Easy
    John Coltrane - Big Nick
    Stan Getz- Sunshower
    Anybody - Blue Bossa
    Christian Scott - Litany Against Fear
    Joe Henderson - Recorda-me
    Horace Silver - Song for My Father
    There is No Greater Love - Haven't heard a vocal version I didn't like (yet)
    Ella Fitzgerald - Take the "A" Train
    Cannonball Adderley - New Delhi (listening/singing this right now....awwhhhhh I looooovvvvee itttt)
    Cannonball Adderley - Autumn Leaves (my medicine)
    Nikki Yanofsky -I Got Rhythm (Yeah, I know...but this is the only version I can stomach)
    Chuck Mangione - Feels So Good (Yes, yes it does!)
    Sonny Rollins - Doxy
    Dave Brubeck - Take Five
    Johnny Griffin's version of 63rd Street Theme from The Cat album (that part where it drops to just him and the bass is BEASTLY!)
    Nearly anything Herbie Hancock
    Jackie McLean - Bluesanova
    Miles Davis - Four


    ...sorry, I wanna keep going, but the thing all these tunes have in common and the reason they get repeat plays in my iPod is because they all have catchy, instantly singable heads that make me wanna learn them. When I am at work, or out and about, I sing these heads just I love 'em so much. That's the shit that made me fall in love with jazz music. Some of these tunes even have solos I kinda like. I respect Charlie for being good at what he did the way I respect anyone for being good at their craft, but I have no desire or incentive to learn any of his music beyond technical exercises and proving to the jazz gestapo that I am a serious musician when away from my instrument.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Ok, that's a great list.

    Which solos are the ones you like most?

  4. #28
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    I respect Charlie for being good at what he did the way I respect anyone for being good at their craft, but I have no desire or incentive to learn any of his music beyond technical exercises and proving to the jazz gestapo that I am a serious musician when away from my instrument.
    Well, nobody said you have to play or study Parker. I don't even care if you dislike his music. But that's different from stating that his solos are unlistenable vomit. The man was a genius and a key figure in the development of the genre. All the guys you dig listened to him.

    Bebop was never intended as easy listening pop music. The early boppers knew that all too well.

    DB

  5. #29

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    Well part of understanding the music of Parker is putting him in perspective.

    Maybe checking out his predecessors and contemporaries in detail, as well as learning a bit about the broader human condition of those times in that place will help to put the guy in perspective. Not saying you specifically haven't, but just throwing this point out there.

    Learning some of his tunes never hurt anybody either. Seems like you have learned a couple already. I learned a few of his tunes out of a sense of obligation, but found I started enjoying some of his stuff after I was able to access and identify more clearly some of his musical inclinations.

    He's not my favourite musician, he's not my favourite bopper, he's not my favourite sax player. Some of his stuff goes over my head. A lot of his heads go over my head! I prefer his earlier stuff (like that great 1943 recording of Cherokee). I believe this is considered a "still-in-development" version of Parker. Call me what names you like, but for me, he's cookin' there.

    I don't think its wrong or ass-like(?) not to enjoy his music as much as some other player(or even at all), but I think a lot can be learned from him. Given his importance in the music, I don't think anybody can kind of bypass the acknowledgement of the fact that he is one of the monumental figures in jazz.

    Here's the Cherokee recording. It's just way too good man. Even just the head...full of swing and melody.

    Last edited by pushkar000; 03-22-2015 at 08:43 AM.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Dear Broyale,

    I have listened to your playing a while ago when you said something uninformed about laminate guitars. And I tried to get where that stament was coming from. So I checked out your clips. You are a beginner at best. That is ok in itself but it also means that your opinions may be more uninformed than subjective. On the internet it seems that all opinions are equal but unfortunately in real life that is not the case. I teach at a university and there's a healthy distance between informed opinions and uninformed ones there. Unlike on the internet.

    If you fail to realise the greatness of Charlie Parker, that is NOT subjectivity. It's ignorance. It's like when I start proclaiming that Einstein was not that clever and that his theories are total garbage.

    Apparently you need to develop in the field of jazz a lot more. That's ok. Really. But spouting opinions like that Bird's solos are unlistenable vomit is not helping your development much I'm afraid. It only makes you look bad.


    DB
    I don't see how dishonesty would be any more helpful to my development. I am not going to lie and say I like something when I don't, especially not for the approval or acceptance of anyone else. And yes, I am a beginner, and not ashamed of it, either. Which is why I ask (in earnest) at what point am I supposed to recognize his greatness and start falling over myself in love with his music?
    How is it ignorance exactly? I listened to his music, learned a few of his tunes, watched a documentary, bought a collection of his music, bought that blue book of his transcribed solos, and at some point during all that, I came to the conclusion that I just did not like his music. Parker is just a man that made music, I am absolutely certain that in 10 years from now when these 6 hours of practice start to really pay off, I am going to feel the same way. Stick a Parker chart in front of me-I'll learn it. Call a Parker tune on the bandstand-I'll play it, but don't ask me to bow down and lie to others or myself on how I feel about his music.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Ok, that's a great list.

    Which solos are the ones you like most?
    George Benson's beastly solo on Red Clay.
    I like the little pauses he puts in between phrases at the beginning and the way it kicks up with the octaves and he just lets loose after that. Its singable, its not technical note-vomit, its just sooo smooth and cool. His playing on that song is just so inspiring, like it makes me wanna pick up my guitar and go to work.
    I like Grant's solos, but more for transcribing than listening. I am trying to pick up some of his phrasing.
    Last edited by Broyale; 03-22-2015 at 09:58 AM.

  8. #32
    destinytot Guest
    Although I learn lines most effectively by listening to flute and trumpet players who've mastered the language, I want the guitar to sound like... a guitar. In the right hands, bebop guitar is exquisite. Bird Lives!

  9. #33
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    How is it ignorance exactly? I listened to his music, learned a few of his tunes, watched a documentary, bought a collection of his music, bought that blue book of his transcribed solos, and at some point during all that, I came to the conclusion that I just did not like his music. Parker is just a man that made music, I am absolutely certain that in 10 years from now when these 6 hours of practice start to really pay off, I am going to feel the same way. Stick a Parker chart in front of me-I'll learn it. Call a Parker tune on the bandstand-I'll play it, but don't ask me to bow down and lie to others or myself on how I feel about his music.
    The man's music is part of the canon. You don't have to bow down for it. But it's not vomit.

    DB

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    My Little Suede Shoes is a great catchy tune! I love playing it at the gigs. Is it completely original by Parker, or he re- worked a folk tune or anything?
    I looked into this and found a claim that "My Little Suede Shoes" is a contrafact of "Jeepers Creepers." Here are both tunes. (I love "Jeepers Creepers," by the way. Sinatra did a great job with it. Johnny Mercer lyrics tend to please me---such a crafty mix of the down-home and the uptown.)

    Charlie Parker ? ?My Little Suede Shoes? / Jack Teagarden and Johnny Mercer ? ?Jeepers Creepers? | Listening To Now

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    George Benson's beastly solo on Red Clay.
    I like the little pauses he puts in between phrases at the beginning in the beginning and the way it kicks up with the octaves and he just lets loose after that. Its singable, its not technical note-vomit, its just sooo smooth and cool. His playing on that song is just so inspiring, like it makes me wanna pick up my guitar and go to work.
    I like Grant's solos, but more for transcribing than listening. I am trying to pick up some of his phrasing.
    I can't remember that Benson solo and youtube seems to be screwed at the moment so I'll check it out later.

    Grant Green is a good one to start transcribing - good lines and easier to figure out than most.

    I didn't like Parker that much at first, it was too fast and complex for my ears, which were not used to jazz. But the more I listened and got into other players, eventually I realised a lot of it ultimately stemmed from his influence. By then my ears had adapted and I could hear him properly.

    It sounds like you're still at the stage where you dig the heads/melodies, but you're still not getting into the solos so much.

    Which is understandable, but calling any fast playing you don't appreciate 'vomit' is just going to piss people off.

    In one of your previous posts you said you would eventually like to sit in with a jazz singer called Carly Colman. I don't know her, but I suspect that turning up and saying 'all fast jazz solos and Charlie Parker sound like vomit to me' is not the best way of approaching that goal!

  12. #36

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    Originally Posted by Broyale
    I worked on a couple, last one was Scrapple from the Apple, but like alot of his music, I quickly forgot it.
    Charlie Parker was an interesting person, but his music is a major turn-off for me and his solos are unlistenable. Its like 200 bpm note-vomit.



    if I were you I'd spend more time listening and practicing and less time typing.

    This is some of the lamest !@#$ I've ever read about jazz. If you don't like Charlie Parker why are you even on a jazz guitar group?!?

    Sometimes this group is like the blind leading the deaf.

  13. #37
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    George Benson's beastly solo on Red Clay.
    I like the little pauses he puts in between phrases at the beginning in the beginning and the way it kicks up with the octaves and he just lets loose after that. Its singable, its not technical note-vomit, its just sooo smooth and cool. His playing on that song is just so inspiring, like it makes me wanna pick up my guitar and go to work.
    Benson's playing is always great, but that whole style is a minefield.

    It's unlikely to be appreciated by anyone without sophistication, but the audio and transcription of solos by Hawkins, Young, Parker (aged 20), and Konitz on Lady Be Good at the blog 2) Oh, Lady! - Do The Math show that Bird (like Benson, when he so chooses) has sophistication.

    Singable? Lester Young's Lady Be Good is singable. "Look what they've done to my song, Ma."

    What I find grotesque about the first of the clips below is absent from the second - and it's absent from Bird's music, too.

    For me, the third clip makes plain the difference between the two. It also points to why the "note-vomit" comment sounds egregious to such a delicate doily as me.




  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    Originally Posted by Broyale
    I worked on a couple, last one was Scrapple from the Apple, but like alot of his music, I quickly forgot it.
    Charlie Parker was an interesting person, but his music is a major turn-off for me and his solos are unlistenable. Its like 200 bpm note-vomit.



    if I were you I'd spend more time listening and practicing and less time typing.

    This is some of the lamest !@#$ I've ever read about jazz. If you don't like Charlie Parker why are you even on a jazz guitar group?!?

    Sometimes this group is like the blind leading the deaf.
    Because, when I started learning jazz, no one told me a prerequisite for learning/listening/liking jazz was a raging boner for Bird's music or even a required casual preference for it. And I am certainly not gonna force myself to like or appreciate anything, least of all to fit in with someone else view of what the jazz music is.

  15. #39
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    Because, when I started learning jazz, no one told me a prerequisite for learning/listening/liking jazz was a raging boner for Bird's music or even a required casual preference for it. And I am certainly not gonna force myself to like or appreciate anything, least of all to fit in with someone else view of what the jazz music is.
    Are you, by any chance, an adolescent?

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Are you, by any chance, an adolescent?
    Does claiming one's own individuality make them an adolescent?
    If so, at what point does one stop thinking for themselves and just "go with what everyone else is says", then?
    Last edited by Broyale; 03-22-2015 at 11:53 AM.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Are you, by any chance, an adolescent?
    He is at least 34. He said so in a previous post.

  18. #42
    destinytot Guest
    Does claiming one's own individuality make them an adolescent?
    No, it doesn't.

    But being obstreperous about one's own individuality might, hence my question.

  19. #43
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    He is at least 34. He said so in a previous post.
    Thanks.

  20. #44

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    How many years ago was that?...We were playing this stuff in the sixties, it was old hat then, jazz is an evolving art form (isn't it), If your any good at it, you do your own thing, not create a perpetual ground hog day. We should rename this site "The dead poets society"......All the practicing and learning in the world will not make you creative if you haven't got it in the first place. Regurgitating 60yr old music isn't going convince anybody otherwise. I suppose the bedroom players will scream from the roof tops, but in the real world it's a different matter, "Charley Who?......

  21. #45

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    I don't think you have to like Bird...bebop is certainly not my favorite brand of jazz (Rembrandt isn't my favorite painter either) But there's a masterclass in every Parker head you learn...jazz has a history, and knowing it is part of being well-rounded...and the stuff it teaches you! Jazz is a huge music that grew very organically...And if you listen carefully to good players, you hear an individual voice...AND the history.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I don't think you have to like Bird...bebop is certainly not my favorite brand of jazz (Rembrandt isn't my favorite painter either) But there's a masterclass in every Parker head you learn...jazz has a history, and knowing it is part of being well-rounded...and the stuff it teaches you! Jazz is a huge music that grew very organically...And if you listen carefully to good players, you hear an individual voice...AND the history.

    Without Parker and Diz none of the Jazz since would exist, their fingerprint is in every great Jazz musician since. They are the creators and elders of modern Jazz and deserve respect for that alone.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by larry graves
    How many years ago was that?...We were playing this stuff in the sixties, it was old hat then, jazz is an evolving art form (isn't it), If your any good at it, you do your own thing, not create a perpetual ground hog day. We should rename this site "The dead poets society"......All the practicing and learning in the world will not make you creative if you haven't got it in the first place. Regurgitating 60yr old music isn't going convince anybody otherwise. I suppose the bedroom players will scream from the roof tops, but in the real world it's a different matter, "Charley Who?......
    If you study Charlie Parker, your playing improves.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    Because, when I started learning jazz, no one told me a prerequisite for learning/listening/liking jazz was a raging boner for Bird's music or even a required casual preference for it. And I am certainly not gonna force myself to like or appreciate anything, least of all to fit in with someone else view of what the jazz music is.
    the real prerequisite for any art is to know when to listen and when to shut up. Anyway, not sure how you made it out of my ignore list but you're going back on it. Less than worthless commentary on a music that you've been fooling around with in your spare time for a few years but some of us have devoted a lifetime to. You type a mean solo though!

    Don't bother replying (to me anyway) because I will not be seeing it and I would appreciate it if folks didn't quite this ridiculousness.

  25. #49

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    this is fun. i guess i'll throw something in.

    like other's have said, Parker's music is old by now so one should place it in historical context. in fact, they can't help it.

    music has certainly moved on, but many of the great players mentioned above were deeply and directly influenced by Bird, Cannonball being an obvious example. new generations of players come along and are influenced by their immediate predecessors, oftentimes without appreciating the backward linkage to their predecessors' predecessors, and so on. i remember the first time that i heard Parker and thought "what's the big deal?" by that time i'd been listening to the very explosive Cannonball and Trane, and more Trane, and so on. it took me awhile to appreciate the historical connections.


    Broyale, just tell everybody that you recognize Bird's genius and huge contribution, but that you're really more of a Coltrane man, and people will think you're just fine - even hipper.

    peace out.

  26. #50

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    I think the bigger issue is when someone comes onto a thread about Bird or Coltrane or any of the established greats and then defames them and expresses that - despite the generally recognized genius of these historical figures - that they are just vomiting 16th notes , it just establishes your ignorance. The fact that this dude is given *ANY* credence at all is a testament to the worth of internet chat forums in general.

    For this seems to be a place where typing is more valuable than playing.