View Poll Results: How many Charlie Parker tunes do you know?

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75. You may not vote on this poll
  • I don't know any

    16 21.33%
  • A couple

    32 42.67%
  • A half dozen or so

    17 22.67%
  • At least a dozen, probably a few more

    6 8.00%
  • Twenty, easy, probably more

    4 5.33%
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  1. #51

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    You know, this is so stupid. Broyale doesn't like Bird. So what? Who cares? He doesn't like him. Why should that if end ANYONE??? Taste is taste and is subjective. This shouldn't be done fascist fall in lock step with conventional opinion forum. The jazz police are heavily in force here. This is bullshit. I used to tell people I didn't like Bach, and I didn't. It offended the hell out if people. I grew to appreciate his music but WHO THE F CARES?????? LIVE AND LET LIVE.

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  3. #52
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by larry graves
    How many years ago was that?...We were playing this stuff in the sixties, it was old hat then, jazz is an evolving art form (isn't it), If your any good at it, you do your own thing, not create a perpetual ground hog day. We should rename this site "The dead poets society"......All the practicing and learning in the world will not make you creative if you haven't got it in the first place. Regurgitating 60yr old music isn't going convince anybody otherwise. I suppose the bedroom players will scream from the roof tops, but in the real world it's a different matter, "Charley Who?......

    I think "the flat earth society" would be way more appropriate for this forum.

    DB

  4. #53
    destinytot Guest
    Broyale doesn't like Bird.
    That isn't at issue.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    Its okay, nothing I would buy. The melody doesn't really stick to me though. "shrugs"
    So, if I don't find Parker's playing listenable this means I don't understand jazz? At what point in my jazz development am I supposed shut off all subjectivity and accept the greatness of Parker?
    Listen to this solo again in 10 years. If you don't feel anything then, you must be doing something wrong!

    Seriously, in that great list of your fave solos, I seriously doubt that a single one of those players did not worship at the altar of Parker at some point in their learning. "Modern" Jazz starts with Bird. Sure it's moved on in many directions since, but if you don't get what everyone sees as special in what Bird brought to Jazz, then you just don't get Jazz. You don't have to love it, but you do have to respect it.

    There simply can be no ifs or buts on this, it's not even a subjective call, like saying if you don't like Joe Pass you don't like Jazz- on that one I'd say that is subjective. But not Parker, no way. Bird to Jazz is what the Bible is to Christianity!

    Period.

    Stop your deeply offensive trolling, you are spoiling a potentially good thread.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    You know, this is so stupid. Broyale doesn't like Bird. So what? Who cares? He doesn't like him. Why should that if end ANYONE??? Taste is taste and is subjective. This shouldn't be done fascist fall in lock step with conventional opinion forum. The jazz police are heavily in force here. This is bullshit. I used to tell people I didn't like Bach, and I didn't. It offended the hell out if people. I grew to appreciate his music but WHO THE F CARES?????? LIVE AND LET LIVE.

    i hear ya. Mahler isn't for everyone either. doesn't mean they don't appreciate great classical music.

  7. #56

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    I think you guys are full of it. I really do.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by larry graves
    This is just painting by numbers....copying!!.......L..

    so you are not a believer in the Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate concept, we take it?


    what learning path should the developing Improviser follow, or for that matter, Composer?
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 03-22-2015 at 01:37 PM.

  9. #58
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Full of what?

    DB

  10. #59

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    I definitely don't think the issue is not liking Bird here...Broyale's been having a tough relationship with this music...this has been going on for a while.

    There's really nothing more irritating than somebody telling you that you need to like something. But it's also tough to take somebody seriously when they make a comment like the "raging hard on for Charlie Parker" biz too. Respecting the fact Parker changed music forever--and jazz today would not exist as it does--is not blimd "sheep" like following. Anybody with ears can hear it. And if you can't--just as those who like to argue here improvisation isn't the key thing about jazz--maybe JAZZ just ain't your bag.

    Reg will post here from time to time saying "its music, we're not saving lives." Might be a good time for that perspective.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    I feel so disconnected from replies like this that, though we seem to be on the same forum (are we really?), I somehow doubt we even play the same instrument.

    DB
    you don't. You play guitar, he types.

    Guys like him ruin the forums for people who are actually real students of the instrument. And to Henry's ridiculous contention that we're all puppies and unicorns and rainbows....Sorry but no. There are established greats. They are established greats for a reason.

    Also, only an attention-whore comes into a charlie parker thread and calls bird's playing vomit.

    Got to be one of the most ignorant postings I've ever here and that's saying something.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I definitely don't think the issue is not liking Bird here...Broyale's been having a tough relationship with this music...this has been going on for a while.

    There's really nothing more irritating than somebody telling you that you need to like something. But it's also tough to take somebody seriously when they make a comment like the "raging hard on for Charlie Parker" biz too. Respecting the fact Parker changed music forever--and jazz today would not exist as it does--is not blimd "sheep" like following. Anybody with ears can hear it. And if you can't--just as those who like to argue here improvisation isn't the key thing about jazz--maybe JAZZ just ain't your bag.

    Reg will post here from time to time saying "its music, we're not saving lives." Might be a good time for that perspective.
    I think the larger point is being missed here. To come into a Charlie Parker thread and to say his playing is vomit is just a weak attempt at getting attention. He did it for a reaction. Either he needs to attention or he's taking a cue form RB and just trying to stir the pot. At least RB does it with intelligence and humor.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Full of what?

    DB
    Maybe Henry thinks we're on heroin...

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Full of what?

    DB
    and which guys? so confusing, hehe.

  15. #64

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    We all let our guards/screens/filters down on internet forums. If we hang on for a second and imagine a human being in front of us instead of a computer screen, I think the whole thing is not actually so bad as it seems. No need to go too far.

    Broyale if you're still hanging around this thread - wish you all the best from a fellow beginner!

  16. #65

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    I think bullshit to try an force anyone by intimidation or calling ignorance when someone doesn't like a revered figure. People get their noses pushed out of shape. It happens to me. It's snobbery. He has the right to not like or like what he wants and we have nothing to do with it. We can accept it or not but we cannot change it. Not by force or ostracism or name calling. I admire Broyale's guts for saying what he did in the face of crys to the contrary. I happen to think Bird was a genius and changed the face of 20th century music. But SO WHAT???? The world is F'ed up because too many people are up in arms because THOSE OTHER PEOPLE have different opinions!!!

    Geesus!!!!!
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 03-22-2015 at 02:01 PM.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I think the larger point is being missed here. To come into a Charlie Parker thread and to say his playing is vomit is just a weak attempt at getting attention. He did it for a reaction. Either he needs to attention or he's taking a cue form RB and just trying to stir the pot. At least RB does it with intelligence and humor.

    Nah...i don't think it's just trolling. Broyale's been having a tough time with jazz as a whole...i don't think he's yet reconciled with the fact that it takes a long time to become even passable as a player...there's been a lot of threads here where he's looked for outs...questioning some common knowledge/acceptances because he's not getting the results he wants. But he's not a bad guy, and not just here to start shit. But we gotta plenty of those people too. And some who just don't seem to really like jazz.

  18. #67
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    You know, this is so stupid. Broyale doesn't like Bird. So what? Who cares? He doesn't like him. Why should that if end ANYONE???
    Maybe because he chooses to liken the man's playing to vomit?

    DB

  19. #68
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    i hear ya. Mahler isn't for everyone either. doesn't mean they don't appreciate great classical music.
    Great answer, and an important principle. Thank you!

    Charlie Parker was an interesting person, but his music is a major turn-off for me and his solos are unlistenable.
    Actually, I felt that way at 18, reading the Ross Russell biography and wanting to get his music. (I was 25 when my ears opened - and when they did, it opened the door to a whole world of Beauty.)

  20. #69

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    In the end, Henry's got the right idea.

    It's also good advice for when you don't like somethimg, try to understand why...and if it's just not for you, that doesn't make it crap.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Maybe because he chooses to liken the man's playing to vomit?

    DB
    So???!!!!!

  22. #71

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    Broyale's having a tough time accepting jazz on OUR terms. Maybe he's doing just fine on his own. I don't know.

  23. #72

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    Well, it's a bit like walking into a bar in Bridgeport and screaming "white sox suck!" And then running out expecting folks are gonna pat you on the back and buy you a beer.

    I mean, is it all stupid and meaningless in the end? Sure. But ya can't deny human nature...

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    You know, this is so stupid. Broyale doesn't like Bird. So what? Who cares? He doesn't like him. Why should that if end ANYONE??? Taste is taste and is subjective. This shouldn't be done fascist fall in lock step with conventional opinion forum. The jazz police are heavily in force here. This is bullshit. I used to tell people I didn't like Bach, and I didn't. It offended the hell out if people. I grew to appreciate his music but WHO THE F CARES?????? LIVE AND LET LIVE.
    Henry, if someone compared your music to vomit, would you not be offended?

    He could have just said he doesn't like Bird, then none of this would have happened.

  25. #74

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    Not a fair comparison at all. Nobody here called each other's music vomit.

  26. #75
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Not a fair comparison at all. Nobody here called each other's music vomit.
    Your point being?

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Henry, if someone compared your music to vomit, would you not be offended?

    He could have just said he doesn't like Bird, then none of this would have happened.
    Exactly. No one called anyone else's music here vomit. And I think there has been someone who had less than gracious things to say about my music. It hurt, but you know, I had no retort. That was their opinion and in that light, they were correct.

  28. #77

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    But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody hell what???? He can lie and say it sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 03-23-2015 at 11:02 AM.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    Your point being?
    My point is, however the comment about Parker was worded, it wasn't a personal insult...doesn't means folks won't get upset...

    Take my previous example of the baseball fans...now yell "white sox and irish catholics suck." Now you're looking at reconstructive dental surgery. There's a difference.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody well what???? He can lie and says its sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.
    i agree.

    and i wonder if Broyale actually thinks it sounds like 200mph vomit, or if he was sick enough of people telling him they "are sorry he can't hear it" that he decided to go for a real zinger.

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Broyale's having a tough time accepting jazz on OUR terms. Maybe he's doing just fine on his own. I don't know.
    I like Broyale and wish him the best. But clearly he is not doing just fine on his own----his struggles make that plain. I commend him for being honest about them and think this is a sign he will develop something special. I certainly hope so. But I would also caution him that when one is 'young in the game' (-which could come at age 60, if one takes up a new interest then) it is better to say "I just don't get this" than to say to people who know much more that "X's playing sounds like vomit." It is not Parker's reputation which is damaged by such talk.

  32. #81
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    So???!!!!!
    I agree it's important not to demonize anyone for being tactless. But we're all accountable here, and I'd rather they were challenged in case silence is taken for approval.

    Personally, I don't approve of likening Bird's playing to "note-vomit" because there are polite ways of expressing opinions and explaining views - i.e. ways that don't cause affront to anyone's dignity - and I'd rather see them used.

    So the simile goes too far. Likening the man's playing to "note-vomit" shows contempt, and in a manner that's unfair, unnecessary and unsavoury.

    (Oh, dear! Now I've made myself queasy...)
    Last edited by destinytot; 03-22-2015 at 03:00 PM.

  33. #82
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody well what???? He can lie and says its sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.
    Well, most mathematical formulas look like bullshit to me but I would never call a renowned mathematician full of it.

    By your standards, any opinion is sacred? Mmmm ... I completely and utterly disagree.

    DB

  34. #83
    destinytot Guest
    It is not Parker's reputation which is damaged by such talk.


    Such talk is unpleasant to read, but how easily it's dissolved!

    So... I've recently started using D'Andrea Pro-Plec 351, and I love playing with them. I think I'll start working on a couple of Parker heads this week.

  35. #84

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    can we summarize by saying the following?: (1) there is no need to go out of one's way to disparage another's work of art, but (2) on the other hand it's perfectly allowable to do so.


    if so, then maybe we can get back to this:

    1. Given that "playing Parker heads" has been a staple for serious jazz students for decades now, what do we think of the merits and drawbacks of doing so?

    2. Is it time to supplement Parker's works with another player's or composer's when developing one's vocabulary and capability, and if so who? (answer limited to 1-2 artists please)

    3. Is it time to replace Parker's works with another player's or composer's when developing one's vocabulary and capability, and if so who? (answer limited to 1-2 artists please)

  36. #85

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    Good questions, FF.

    As far as I'm concerned, almost everything about the jazz language, rhythmically and harmonically--or at least the first things any player should be learning, are right there in Parker. And while his stuff is a technical challenge, it's also straightforward enough that even a beginner can see what's going on in a lot of it...so in my opinion, its a perfect learning tool...

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    and i wonder if Broyale actually thinks it sounds like 200mph vomit, or if he was sick enough of people telling him they "are sorry he can't hear it" that he decided to go for a real zinger.
    Given that he has previously stated a dislike of jazz solos and improvisation generally, I think it's probably true that he just can't 'hear' Parker's stuff and so it really sounds that bad to him.

    Which is a shame, but there it is. Actually I can understand someone finding Bird hard going, I did at first. I would be more concerned about the whole 'not liking solos/improvisation' thing, yet wanting to play jazz. It's a bit of a roadblock.

  38. #87

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    Why not just ignore the vomit comment and get back to the OP's topic?
    Maybe a sub-forum should be created to complain about other members. (Mostly kidding, but I wish it were so, so I could follow the topics without seeing the gripes.)
    Last edited by KirkP; 03-22-2015 at 04:20 PM.

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by KIRKP
    Why not just ignore the vomit comment and get back to the OP's topic?
    Maybe a sub-forum should be created to complain about other members. (Mostly kidding, but I wish it were so, so I could follow the topics without seeing the gripes.)
    I confidently predict that would soon become the most popular sub-forum.

  40. #89

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    Back on topic a bit here, one handy thing about playing Parker tunes is of course that once past the tricky head, generally it's either blues or rhythm changes. So if you can nail those 2 progressions, you can (in theory) tackle a lot of Parker tunes.

  41. #90
    Dutchbopper Guest
    Ironically, I just posted a video interview of Jesse van Ruller in the "players" forum in which he states that his taste developed "backwards in time" and then went forward again. When Jesse van Ruller started his studies at the Hilversum conservatory, he actually disliked bebop and mainstream jazz guitar and had no clue about traditional jazz. He checked out a gig of his future teacher (Wim Overgaauw) but did not like it much. He was more into Scofield. Until he found out where it all came from. He had to look a bit further than his nose was long (Dutch expression).

    DB

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I looked into this and found a claim that "My Little Suede Shoes" is a contrafact of "Jeepers Creepers." Here are both tunes. (I love "Jeepers Creepers," by the way. Sinatra did a great job with it. Johnny Mercer lyrics tend to please me---such a crafty mix of the down-home and the uptown.)

    Charlie Parker ? ?My Little Suede Shoes? / Jack Teagarden and Johnny Mercer ? ?Jeepers Creepers? | Listening To Now
    Yeah I can hear similarity, but the melody is different enough, and the B section is very much original. Love both tunes, though. I think, harmonically alot of bebop tunes borrowed swing era progressions, just re wrote the heads.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Exactly. No one called anyone else's music here vomit. And I think there has been someone who had less than gracious things to say about my music. It hurt, but you know, I had no retort. That was their opinion and in that light, they were correct.
    WTF are you talking about. Someone compared - arguably the most important improviser in history's play - to vomit.

    And you're an apologist for that? And that's ok why? Cuz he's not a member of this pathetic forum?!? lol. Or is it because the cat is dead?!?

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    But if Bird's music DOES sound like vomit to him, so in the bloody well what???? He can lie and says its sounds like urine or rain clouds or peaches. It's his OPINION. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO FORCE ANYONE TO HAVE ANOTHER.
    So let me get this right...It's ok to call Bird's music vomit but if we call into question something broyale says, that's a violation of some chat-room ethic?!? Is that about the gist of it?

    Nobody is denying him his right to free speech. He's welcome to say whatever he wants. Just don't expect people to take it lightly when someone comes into a charlie parker thread and compares his music to vomit.

  45. #94

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    Soapbox alert ...

    DB
    : Thanks very much for the clips. I'm sure I'll watch every one of them more than once. What better way for a guitarist to see Parker interpreted on guitar!?

    Broyale: Just for the record, I don't agree with you about Parker, but I'm not upset with you either. You have been honest and courageous, and as an aspiring artist, you need to keep that voice alive inside you. OTOH I don't see how you can get the full benefit of this community without being more smoothly integrated into it, and that means not pushing peoples' buttons when you can find a way around them. Others have already pointed out ways to do this. Regardless of who is right or wrong, taking it easy on people pays off in the long run, so I hope you view caring about other members' feelings as winning - which it is - and not as capitulating.

    Everyone: There has been an avalanche of poor manners in this thread. Poor manners are never necessary, and they never enhance the way we come across because they are simply not cool. If you think Broyale is a troll then report him. He had a small platform until we created a big platform for him.

    Finally, this is a public forum, and whether we like it or not there are young people tuning in with no other example than the one we set. As you know, they don't see the whole us, but only what we write. So please give some weight to writing with the voice of a father they would like to know face-to-face, and not with the voice of an ill-tempered man at the other end of the internet. You will capture their attention better, teach them more effectively about Charlie Parker, and teach them about a lot more too.

    Soapbox clear


    Thanks for listening guys and apologies in advance if I put anyone off. You can throw e-bricks at me now if you want to, but I hope we can be better colleagues than that.

  46. #95
    destinytot Guest
    So, Parker heads: it now seems to me that learning to play some is a rite of passage, in which case resistance is futile. Better to embrace it.

  47. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    So, Parker heads: it now seems to me that learning to play some is a rite of passage, in which case resistance is futile. Better to embrace it.
    Right. That's apparently what it is for many. Practicing Donna Lee, so I can get it down cold, show off to my jazz colleagues, once it done I can relax and actually enjoy working on my Art Pepper tunes.

    All jokes aside, I'm not the biggest Charlie Parker fan, but here and there I'd come across his solos that just so cooool! Like on Dizzy';s Atmosphere, right after the head... wow, the best, perfect solo! That one I actually learned and enjoyed for fun!

  48. #97

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    ..., soooo, ignoring the side show, what I'd like to know is, do the peeps here get more out of Parker heads, or the solos?. I never understood where people say all the best vocab is in the heads. A lot of my fave Parker vocab is in the solos.

  49. #98

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    I think that the heads are just as valuable as the solos, a lot of it is the same language.

  50. #99

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    To (humbly) clarify my statements, then back away from this thread to practice,
    What I meant by "note-vomit" (not literal vomit), is that when I listen to Parker's music, all I hear is notes on notes on notes with nothing for me to latch on to like, for instance, that bitchin' GB solo on Red Clay. His music always felt more like exercises to me. When I was in school, we watched a video of Greg Fishman and some lady singing a Parker head and while it was impressive from a technical sense of someone being able to nail it vocally, I was looking around like, "this sounds like gibberish" to me. Someone at work asked me if I felt that way, then why do I like Giant Steps, well, it should be obvious. Giant Steps is awesome and it makes me wanna sing it, some tunes don't. Someone mentioned that learning Parker solos are a rite of passage, and I would agree, I just see his music as technical exercises to master, nothing I would be inclined to sing or anything. I do realize that he kinda had to play like that considering what he went through just to be able to get on the bandstand and make it through a set without someone throwing a cymbal at him (allegedly).

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale
    ...... His music always felt more like exercises to me......, "this sounds like gibberish" to me. Someone at work asked me if I felt that way, then why do I like Giant Steps, well, it should be obvious. Giant Steps is awesome and it makes me wanna sing it, some tunes don't.......
    Obvious, really? Many of us feel that Giant Steps sounds more like an "exercise" than anything Parker ever played....