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  1. #1

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    I was hoping to get some input on how you guys hear this tune. I hear the tune as having 2 eight bar segments in "A" and 4 four bar segments in "B". My instructor hears it the same way, but comes to a different conclusion when it comes to determining key centers.

    In the first 8 bars of "A", I hear C- F7 Bb7 as being in some sort of Bb- Maj7 key. I interpret the second 8 the same way with Eb- Ab7 Db7 as being in a Db- Maj7 key. Why do I hear what I consider to be the "I" chord as being minor when it is clearly written as dominant?

    I came across a different sort of problem in the "B" section where Db- Gb7 B- sounds like a B minor key, yet my instructor hears the Db- and Gb7 as being B Major and the B- chord as being B Major. The same goes for the next 2 four bar segments.

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    I was hoping to get some input on how you guys hear this tune. I hear the tune as having 2 eight bar segments in "A" and 4 four bar segments in "B". My instructor hears it the same way, but comes to a different conclusion when it comes to determining key centers.

    In the first 8 bars of "A", I hear C- F7 Bb7 as being in some sort of Bb- Maj7 key. I interpret the second 8 the same way with Eb- Ab7 Db7 as being in a Db- Maj7 key. Why do I hear what I consider to be the "I" chord as being minor when it is clearly written as dominant?

    I came across a different sort of problem in the "B" section where Db- Gb7 B- sounds like a B minor key, yet my instructor hears the Db- and Gb7 as being B Major and the B- chord as being B Major. The same goes for the next 2 four bar segments.
    Great tune, one of my favourites. I can tell you how I look at it. Starts with a big chunk of C minor. So to me, that's C minor. I don't see it as 'in the key of Bb something'. It's a great opportunity to play a load of cool lines in C minor. Then the Bb7 is just a V7 leading to Eb minor. The Eb minor is like the first 8 bars, except now it's a big chunk of Eb minor. So again, I treat it as Eb minor, not 'in the key of Db something'. Then it goes to Db7 which is a bit strange, as it is not really a V7 to anything. So what, I just phrase with the chord tones of Db7 on those 2 bars.

    Next bit is easy, just descending 2-5-1's on minor chords. So just keep moving it down 2 frets. I have no idea why your instructor hears this section as going Db minor to B major (for example). It's clearly Db minor to B minor, and so on down.

    And so on. After this there are a couple of 7th chords which can be awkward, i.e. the Eb7 and later there's a B7. For these I practise my dominant 7 arpeggios on these chords, which gets their sound and pattern under my fingers.
    Last edited by grahambop; 11-18-2014 at 08:38 PM.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    I was hoping to get some input on how you guys hear this tune. I hear the tune as having 2 eight bar segments in "A" and 4 four bar segments in "B". My instructor hears it the same way, but comes to a different conclusion when it comes to determining key centers.

    In the first 8 bars of "A", I hear C- F7 Bb7 as being in some sort of Bb- Maj7 key. I interpret the second 8 the same way with Eb- Ab7 Db7 as being in a Db- Maj7 key. Why do I hear what I consider to be the "I" chord as being minor when it is clearly written as dominant?

    I came across a different sort of problem in the "B" section where Db- Gb7 B- sounds like a B minor key, yet my instructor hears the Db- and Gb7 as being B Major and the B- chord as being B Major. The same goes for the next 2 four bar segments.

    What song is it?

  5. #4

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    Invitation.

  6. #5

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    Interesting.

    Sounds kinda modal with some more standard stuff in the B

    I just had a quick play and Im going with Cmin modal for the first 7 bars with a dominant lead into the new key of Ebmin

    So Cmin and Ebmin modal. I wouldn't think of it in a traditional ii-V sense.

    I didn't get much further, sorry.
    Last edited by Archie; 11-19-2014 at 01:09 AM.

  7. #6

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    grahambop explains it exactly how I think of it too. the Db7 is a little weird, but not unheard of. but I don't feel the Cmi and Ebmi as II chords. those minors are great for a min/maj chords.

    the bridge is like a minor "cherokee." one trick I use is to use the maj7 on the first resolution and then switch to the b7, so e.g. on /Dbmi7/ Gb7/ Bm7/ % // Bm7 / E7/Am7... I'll lean on the A# for the first 2 bars of Bm7 and then switch to A natural for the third bar. This works for comping and soloing.
    Last edited by pkirk; 11-19-2014 at 12:00 AM.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    grahambop explains it exactly how I think of it too. the Db7 is a little weird, but not unheard of. but I don't feel the Cmi and Ebmi as II chords. those minors are great for a min/maj chords.

    the bridge is like a minor "cherokee." one trick I use is to use the maj7 on the first resolution and then switch to the b7, so e.g. on /Dbmi7/ Gb7/ Bm7/ % // Bm7 / E7/Am7... I'll lean on the A# for the first 2 bars of Bm7 and then switch to A natural for the third bar. This works for comping and soloing.
    Not bad, I like superimposing major over minor harmony but you have to be careful.

    I certainly wouldn't lean on it though (I will have to try that out), I'd use it in an arpeggiated sense. Another good choice and in the modal context, would be to simply use paired triads and ignore the Gb7 for the first two bars. Seeing how the Db and B are a tone apart, you could get some interesting lines.

    So over Dbmin I would use Ebmaj and Dbmaj triads, moving down to do the same with Bm and Am using Dbmin Bmin and Amin. Interestingly the Ebmaj will also act as an alter dom type triad over the Gb7. Same in the next part too Maj3rd #5 and B9

    Would probably work well in context with the modal parts.

  9. #8

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    C-7 / G7alt / C-9 / C-7 G7#9/
    C-9 / F7#9 / Bb7#11 / Bb7#11 /
    Eb-9 / Bb7b13 / Eb-9 / Eb-9 Bb7b13 /
    Eb-9 / Ab713sus Ab7b13 / Db7#11 / Db9#11 /

    C#-7 / F#7alt / B-9 E9#11 / B-9 E9#11 /
    B-7 / E7alt / A-9 D9#11 / A-9 D9#11 /
    A-7 / A-7 D7alt / G-9 C9#11 / G-9 C9#11 /
    Eb7#11 / (A7alt) / D7alt / G7alt /

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Not bad, I like superimposing major over minor harmony but you have to be careful.

    I certainly wouldn't lean on it though (I will have to try that out), I'd use it in an arpeggiated sense. Another good choice and in the modal context, would be to simply use paired triads and ignore the Gb7 for the first two bars. Seeing how the Db and B are a tone apart, you could get some interesting lines.

    So over Dbmin I would use Ebmaj and Dbmaj triads, moving down to do the same with Bm and Am using Dbmin Bmin and Amin. Interestingly the Ebmaj will also act as an alter dom type triad over the Gb7. Same in the next part too Maj3rd #5 and B9

    Would probably work well in context with the modal parts.
    I wasn't suggesting to superimpose major over minor (although that is cool too), but rather jazz or melodic minor, i.e. a major scale with a lowered 3rd. In the bridge,
    the first two bars of Bmin function as a I chord, but the third bar it "becomes" a II chord leading to Ami. So at that point I lower the 7th.

  11. #10

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    WWJD? Joe Henderson recorded this tune several times.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk
    I wasn't suggesting to superimpose major over minor (although that is cool too), but rather jazz or melodic minor, i.e. a major scale with a lowered 3rd. In the bridge,
    the first two bars of Bmin function as a I chord, but the third bar it "becomes" a II chord leading to Ami. So at that point I lower the 7th.

    Why lower the 7th when it becomes a 2 chord?

    A melodic minor/maj as you say, would become lydian dominant for the V. Just ignore the 2, its more than common. V's have more interest so yeh, I would ditch the 2 and go straight to the altered V.

    Of course your idea is also correct and should work well, it will also spell out the changes more accurately. However, I think you could get more interest on a longer Min maj7 - V and forgetting the II

  13. #12

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    How would you break this progression down for analysis?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by sambrooker
    How would you break this progression down for analysis?

    not sure I follow the question or who it was aimed at but thats exactly what we're doing :-)

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by sambrooker
    How would you break this progression down for analysis?
    I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions. This truly is a forum for educated musical gentlemen.

  16. #15

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    Just for note...

    Tunes in C-. That's the I, the 2nd part of "A" goes to what should be relative Maj. But become parallel Minor.

    So I-.... C- becomes II V of V of relative Min. Just using Modal Interchange, or parallel Min. of Relative Maj.

    Doesn't really matter... generally when you play the tune, you'll use or base your improv on a few different analysis.


    Then the "B" section goes through a series of contigous II V's... again you can plug and play a few different analysis.

    Get to G-,(V-) then that Eb... duel function going on, becomes sub V of V of V then back to I-

    Now you could call the tune In Eb, and just starts on the relative Min.(C-), adjust the analysis, as far as the roman numerials etc...

    But basically that would be somewhat silly... somewhat like calling a tune in major because of using a picardy third or maj third for last chord of a tune in Min. and then basing the analysis on Maj.

    I generally hear the tune as A B C

  17. #16

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    So Kaltu how do you now think of this piece, still in the same way you did originally?

    Are you still going to use the same teacher? I personally wasn't overly keen on his analysis of the harmony :-)

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    So Kaltu how do you now think of this piece, still in the same way you did originally?

    Are you still going to use the same teacher? I personally wasn't overly keen on his analysis of the harmony :-)
    I hear the tune the same way, but I analyze it differently now. When I improvise, I hit the D natural and Ab7 during the Bb chord and play the F natural and Cb (B) during the Db7, but I think of sections C- F7 Bb7 and Eb- Ab7 Db7 as being sections unto themselves because that's the way their melodies speak to me.

    As to whether or not I retain my teacher, I most certainly will. His name is Jeff Caldwell. He's been a performing jazz musician down here in South Florida for 40 years and has taught for just about as long. I've worked with many instructors, including professors from Florida International University and The University of Miami, and Jeff has been far and away the most effective teacher I've come across.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    I hear the tune the same way, but I analyze it differently now. When I improvise, I hit the D natural and Ab7 during the Bb chord and play the F natural and Cb (B) during the Db7, but I think of sections C- F7 Bb7 and Eb- Ab7 Db7 as being sections unto themselves because that's the way their melodies speak to me.

    As to whether or not I retain my teacher, I most certainly will. His name is Jeff Caldwell. He's been a performing jazz musician down here in South Florida for 40 years and has taught for just about as long. I've worked with many instructors, including professors from Florida International University and The University of Miami, and Jeff has been far and away the most effective teacher I've come across.

    Yeh thats totally fair, your also right to let the melody help guide your choice (good call).

    I was out of line to question someone over such a small sample of his ideas. I hope you an he will accept my apology.

  20. #19

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    No problem. I'm tough to offend and he's too old and blind to properly use the internet (although he still insists on driving).

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    No problem. I'm tough to offend and he's too old and blind to properly use the internet (although he still insists on driving).
    Lol

  22. #21

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    I am having great interest finding this thread and reading through.

    I just found this tune recently and have been studying it by many different jazz artists. Lots of folks have played this. I am really digging it and have been playing along with them for many days now. Finding my way through the changes by ear right now....a lot of chromatic runs used in this tune as it seems those chromatic runs can help create a smooth transition from one section to the next. Everyone I have listened to play it seems to do that. It is a great tune. I am working it out.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarvegas
    I am having great interest finding this thread and reading through.

    I just found this tune recently and have been studying it by many different jazz artists. Lots of folks have played this. I am really digging it and have been playing along with them for many days now. Finding my way through the changes by ear right now....a lot of chromatic runs used in this tune as it seems those chromatic runs can help create a smooth transition from one section to the next. Everyone I have listened to play it seems to do that. It is a great tune. I am working it out.
    Yea, nice moody tune. I like that I can use minor 9th chords.

    Here is a version I really like with Philip Catherine on Guitar:


  24. #23

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    Great version and what a band.