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  1. #1

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    I just have to ask. I don't listen to much slower-tempo music. My preference is mid-to-higher tempo songs. To me, there are few music genres that can take you on a high-speed journey the way that Jazz can, complete with twist and turns (outside notes, 16th-note bursts, conter-melodies, "odd" chords", etc...) that keep your attention and provide a thrill.

    Slow songs and ballads, while beautiful, tend to depress me, or at the very least, relax me to the point that I am ready to take a nap, especially during a gym workout or long drive in the car - when I need to be alert and aroused.

    If I was at a performance, I would not want to hear all ballads, but I could happily hear one with all mid-to-upper tempo songs.

    Does anyone share my feelings on this? Does it run around 50/50 for you? Do you have a preference or do you just let the CD play?

    P.S.: I do like slow songs when relaxing with loved ones.

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  3. #2

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    I think any show without contrast gets boring really fast. That's my preference.

  4. #3

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    I'm with ecj. I like it all, and variation.

    but I also trend towards slower stuff...so if I can prefer ballads, you can prefer fast stuff.

  5. #4

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    Could you imagine a set of Buddy Rich with no ballads? He almost gave me a heart attack as it was. And I was just a teenager.

  6. #5

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    I too prefer medium to up tempo jazz. But in my case it's definitely a problem. Ballads are sometimes a bigger challenge to play in the opposite way. I tend to be the king of medium up. It DOES get old! The poor guys who have to play with me! "Henry? Can we please play a different tempo?' lol.

  7. #6

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    C'mon man .. . how could you not like this?


  8. #7

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    I am with ecj and Mr. B on this one. I do like and listen to both ends of the speed spectrum but I also prefer to play ballads because I can use more time & space to express myself musically with a ballad. I think maybe this is partly because at my age I am dealing with arthritis problems as well as a lack of energy and I can't stretch my fingers to make the chords I used a few years ago. When I make up the sets for an upcoming gig, I try very hard to mix the tempos and styles to match whatever I know about the audience. If I am just playing for personal enjoyment, I would migrate toward Bossanovas and Ballads.

    wiz

  9. #8

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    Sid Jacobs. Love his playing -very haunting song indeed. And the song does a great job of conveying the lyrics.

    Here they are below as I am sure a man of your pedigree already knows:

    I used to visit all the very gay places
    Those come what may places
    Where one relaxes on the axis of the wheel of life
    To get the feel of life...
    From jazz and cocktails.


    The girls I knew had sad and sullen gray faces
    With distant gay traces
    (Note: This should say "With distingué traces")

    That used to be there you could see where they'd been washed away
    By too many through the day...
    Twelve o'clock tales.


    Then you came along with your siren of song
    To tempt me to madness!
    I thought for a while that your poignant smile was tinged with the sadness
    Of a great love for me.


    Ah yes! I was wrong...
    Again,
    I was wrong.

    Life is lonely again,
    And only last year everything seemed so sure.
    Now life is awful again,
    A troughful of hearts could only be a bore.
    A week in paris will ease the bite of it,
    All I care is to smile in spite of it.


    I'll forget you, I will
    While yet you are still burning inside my brain.
    Romance is mush,
    Stifling those who strive.
    I'll live a lush life in some small dive...
    And there I'll be, while I rot
    With the rest of those whose lives are lonely, too..

    Now I have to ask, how is one supposed to feel after a song like this? I just don't have much time anymore to feel somber and melancholy. By the time the Hellhounds of Time are through with me, this may be all I will be listening too.

    I generally avoid melancholy movies/dramas. I guess I get enough of it on the news (which I also don't watch much) and around me.


    I guess that if life is like a night club, I still want to be a fast dancer. Slow songs are for cuddling with someone or for personal reflection. I do too much reflection as it is. I don't want to be the melancholy guy at the bar just yet because I have to stay upbeat, too many responsibilities.

    But, there are times when I give in and that is when I listen to this type of music, maybe even engage in few moments of self-pity and regret, before I shake it off and get back at it again.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 10-29-2013 at 09:20 AM. Reason: changed a line

  10. #9

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    distingué traces

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz
    distingué traces
    distingue (adj.) "having an air of distinction," 1813 (in Byron), from French distingué, literally "distinguished," past participle of distinguer (see distinguish). The girls I knew had sad and sullen gray faces
    With distingué traces
    That used to be there -- You could see where they'd been washed away
    By too many through the day
    Twelve o'clock tales.

    ["Lush Life," Billy Strayhorn, age 17]

    Should have known I could not completely count on the internet for lyrics!

    +2 to you randalljazz

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Sid Jacobs. Love his playing -very haunting song indeed. And the song does a great job of conveying the lyrics.

    Here they are below as I am sure a man of your pedigree already knows:

    I used to visit all the very gay places
    Those come what may places
    Where one relaxes on the axis of the wheel of life
    To get the feel of life...
    From jazz and cocktails.


    The girls I knew had sad and sullen gray faces
    With distant gay traces
    (Note: This should say "With distingué traces")

    That used to be there you could see where they'd been washed away
    By too many through the day...
    Twelve o'clock tales.


    Then you came along with your siren of song
    To tempt me to madness!
    I thought for a while that your poignant smile was tinged with the sadness
    Of a great love for me.


    Ah yes! I was wrong...
    Again,
    I was wrong.

    Life is lonely again,
    And only last year everything seemed so sure.
    Now life is awful again,
    A troughful of hearts could only be a bore.
    A week in paris will ease the bite of it,
    All I care is to smile in spite of it.


    I'll forget you, I will
    While yet you are still burning inside my brain.
    Romance is mush,
    Stifling those who strive.
    I'll live a lush life in some small dive...
    And there I'll be, while I rot
    With the rest of those whose lives are lonely, too..

    Now I have to ask, how is one supposed to feel after a song like this? I just don't have much time anymore to feel somber and melancholy. By the time the Hellhounds of Time are through with me, this may be all I will be listening too.

    I generally avoid melancholy movies/dramas. I guess I get enough of it on the news (which I also don't watch much) and around me.


    I guess that if life is like a night club, I still want to be a fast dancer. Slow songs are for cuddling with someone or for personal reflection. I do too much reflection as it is. I don't want to be the melancholy guy at the bar just yet because I have to stay upbeat, too many responsibilities.

    But, there are times when I give in and that is when I listen to this type of music, maybe even engage in few moments of self-pity and regret, before I shake it off and get back at it again.
    I've mentioned before, here on JGF, and have done so just recently in another thread, that I do not hear lyrics. Oh . . I hear them audibly . . . But, I don't *hear* them mentally. I don't want to hear them. With very rare exception, the lyrics of a song mean absolutely nothing to me. Lyrics are almost always a fabricated story offered up in prose or poetic verse in rhyme. More often than not, they mean absolutely nothing . . . unless you choose to let them relate to a specific event or phase of your own life. I did that on two separate occasions. One still haunts me to this very day. It has to do with Harry Chapin's song Cats in the Cradle . . . and my life long inability to connect with my son. My son is now 38 years old and it still to this day brings tears to my eyes. I fucked up and there's no getting around it.

    But, I'm far more moved by performances than by lyrics. I feel that if a performance moves me to tears . . then that's a good thing. Barbara Streisand's performance of Send in the Clowns . . especially when I saw her perform it live when she did a democrat political fund raiser at her home . . had tears streaming down my cheeks. (for the record, I saw it on television. I would never attend a democrat fund raising event, except to discourage donations LOLOL) Yet, when I hear others sing the song . . it has no effect. Notice that I said I saw Streisand *perform* the song . . while I heard others only sing it. Oleta Adams. Wow! Just listen to her performance of Elton John's song Don't Let The Sun Go Down on Me. It's on the album Two Rooms . . a tribute album to Elton and Bernie. Many different artists and a great product. Sometimes I spin that up just for the shear joy of having it bring me to tears. But, in either of the above cases, I was totally oblivious to the lyrics.

    Similarly in ballads . . I hear the performance. Whether they are slow or up tempo has no relavance to me. Something slow and beautiful by Lee Morgan, Dexter, Miles, Segovia, Itzak Perlman, Yo Yo Ma, Pass, Greg Allman's Sweet Melissa . . . so on and so on . . . those performances bring me joy and if they cause me to well up . . that too brings me joy and a great respect for the artist's ability to move me emotionally.

    Slow songs and slow ballads aren't going to make you feel melancholy . . unless you want them to have that result and effect.

    By the way . . if you liked Sid Jacobs' version of Lush Life . . you should hear Vinnie Corrao's.

  13. #12

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    A Ballad is cool here and there, sometimes I let the CD play, sometimes it's all about the particular mood. To many Ballads can wear me out... one or two on a gig is fine...Pat Martino's "We'll Be Together Again" has some great Ballads. I try to find the beauty in the Ballads and Burners... Except when I'm driving, where I prefer no traffic and Clifford Brown playing Cherokee very loud going 75 mph

  14. #13

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    Billy Strayhorn was a teenager when he wrote that. I believe he was in high school. How's he supposed to know all that?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Billy Strayhorn was a teenager when he wrote that. I believe he was in high school. How's he supposed to know all that?

    He really seems to have been a very advanced fellow for such a young age.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739
    I am with ecj and Mr. B on this one. I do like and listen to both ends of the speed spectrum but I also prefer to play ballads because I can use more time & space to express myself musically with a ballad. I think maybe this is partly because at my age I am dealing with arthritis problems as well as a lack of energy and I can't stretch my fingers to make the chords I used a few years ago. When I make up the sets for an upcoming gig, I try very hard to mix the tempos and styles to match whatever I know about the audience. If I am just playing for personal enjoyment, I would migrate toward Bossanovas and Ballads.

    wiz

    I would probably love your set list over a really nice dinner.

    That is one disclaimer. For me, some nice slow to mid-tempo Jazz goes oh so well with a nice dinner with someone special.

    It can help make for a perfect evening.

  17. #16

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    Maybe that's the problem AlsoRan...You're treating ballads as background music.

    Do some really close listening to something like Kenny Wheeler's "Angel Song." No words, no implications that the songs have to be sad or depressing...just exercises in beauty and space.

    I think the slow stuff rewards close listening even more than the fast stuff much of the time.

  18. #17

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    I can't listen to too many ballads in a row, but I also can't listen to too many up tunes in a row either.
    However, I do think ballads are a really important part of our repertoire, even more than the up tunes, the bop tunes, and all that.
    Here's why:
    You can take an up tune, or even a medium tempo tune and double time it, and just play the fastest lines you can. No one except the musicians on the bandstand and some in the audience will really know what you're doing. When you play a ballad, there is so much space, that every single note you play is exposed, so it has to be perfect.
    It also shows taste and musicianship of the performer. When there is so much space, it is the easiest thing to do one of two things: simply overplaying, as in, filling in too much of the space with either long tones, bad phrasing, or fast lines in bad time. Or, take it into double time feel and play a really stale swing feel and play the song in a way that has nothing to do with itself.
    A musician who can play a ballad, not overplay (although I don't like using the word overplay, because Coltrane certainly did, but everything he played was pure gold), and keep it at the original tempo, all while giving it all the space to breathe is way better than any bebop cat.
    (hint: the bebop cats could do this VERY well, and most likely your favorite jazz musician as well)

    Lastly, you might not like it, but just because you might not like it doesn't mean you will ever play it. I mean, I really hate smooth jazz, but in all honesty, I would take a Kenny G gig if it paid the right amount. It's not about self respect, it's about paying the bills, and I would play the shit out of that smooth jazz if it meant paying the rent for a few months. So, if someone calls you for a tour and asks you to learn a few ballads since you're gonna play at least four a night, and you better play the shit out of them, hell, learn the shit out of those ballads! haha

    And I'm also going to agree with Jeff about the fact that you treat it as background music, which isn't bad, but you should do some active listening. Just sit at home and listen to a tune over and over again and focus on different aspects of the tune. The instruments, the tempo, the changes, etc.
    Last edited by jtizzle; 10-29-2013 at 12:17 PM.

  19. #18

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    Next chance I get, I will add "Misty" to the songs I have been working on, and than maybe I will understand and have greater appreciation for ballads.


    So far, you guys have not steered me wrong.

  20. #19

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    I've been working on Ask Me Now. Well, I'm done with that, but I recently revisited that tune last month. Great ballad for when your pants get too big.
    Last edited by henryrobinett; 10-29-2013 at 03:07 PM.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Next chance I get, I will add "Misty" to the songs I have been working on, and than maybe I will understand and have greater appreciation for ballads.


    So far, you guys have not steered me wrong.
    Hey man . . we're just giving our opinions in answer to your OP question. :-) We're not trying to steer you in either direction . . at least that's not what I'm interpreting here. Also, please do not allow yourself to BE steered. "Be trut to thy self". If you believe that slow ballads are not for you . . who is anyone at all to try to correct your course?

    If the replies you have received on this thread cause you to rethink your position and revisit slow ballads, then that's great. However, if in revisiting them you are still of the same opinion you were previously . . then that doesn't make us right and you wrong. As jtizzle said in the above post . . (at least the portion of it that I understood ) . . you don't have to like slow ballads . . but, you may have to learn and play them at some point in your jazz guitar playing life.

    If you want to work on and cover a tune like Misty . . after you've got it under your fingers and are totally comfortable with it . . try playing it at its normal tempo and as though you are making love to the melody. Then, try it again but this time try swinging it. That very same tune will take on a totally different vibe in your interpretation of it and phrasing of the melody.

  22. #21

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    The Wes version of Misty is great. I'm not too much of a fan of the tune, but Wes does some great stuff with it.
    One of my favorite ballads is Spring Is Here, the Bill Evans version. Anything Bill Evans does with a ballad is just beautiful. Coltrane could also play the shit out of ballads. His records "Ballads", the one with Duke, and the one with Johnny Hartman are really good.

    Edit: Totally forgot Ask Me Now! and while were on the topic of Monk tunes, Pannonica and Monk's Mood are also great.

    Patrick: Sometimes you have to steer people to like things, haha. I would still hate bebop if someone hadn't steered me into listening to Bird and Bud.
    Last edited by jtizzle; 10-29-2013 at 12:57 PM.

  23. #22

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    [QUOTE=jtizzle;373057]The Wes version of Misty is great. I'm not too much of a fan of the tune, but Wes does some great stuff with it.
    One of my favorite ballads is Spring Is Here, the Bill Evans version. Anything Bill Evans does with a ballad is just beautiful. Coltrane could also play the shit out of ballads. His records "Ballads", the one with Duke, and the one with Johnny Hartman are really good.

    Edit: Totally forgot Ask Me Now! and while were on the topic of Monk tunes, Pannonica and Monk's Mood are also great.

    Patrick: Sometimes you have to steer people to like things, haha. I would still hate bebop if someone hadn't steered me into listening to Bird and Bud.
    Well, you can certainly steer people to consider things. You can steer them onto a course exposing them to more of those things they claim to dislike. But, in the end, you can't steer them to liking what they hear if they don't like it . . unless they are just disingenuous to begin with. In your own case, you never really hated bebop. You just weren't exposed to enough of it. Someone steered you to listening to more of it. You made your own decisions about no longer hating it.

  24. #23

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    Flanagan had a beautiful version of "Ask Me Now."

    I could feel may heart melting, my muscles relaxing, and my resolve slowly diminishing. I'd better run and grab Pat Martino's "Impressions" and "Close Your Eyes" before I succumb totally!

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    Well, you can certainly steer people to consider things. You can steer them onto a course exposing them to more of those things they claim to dislike. But, in the end, you can't steer them to liking what they hear if they don't like it . . unless they are just disingenuous to begin with. In your own case, you never really hated bebop. You just weren't exposed to enough of it. Someone steered you to listening to more of it. You made your own decisions about no longer hating it.
    Totally agree, I think we're just pushing some new music and ways to listen to the music, not so much threatening to shoot him if he doesn't listen to the stuff, haha.

    Ran, if you want a pretty much perfect version of Ask Me Now, listen to Joe Henderson play it. It's on the record New York Reunion. Get ready to shed a tear of manliness.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtizzle
    Totally agree, I think we're just pushing some new music and ways to listen to the music, not so much threatening to shoot him if he doesn't listen to the stuff, haha.

    Ran, if you want a pretty much perfect version of Ask Me Now, listen to Joe Henderson play it. It's on the record New York Reunion. Get ready to shed a tear of manliness.
    Ha! Ha!

    Will do.