How to learn a jazz tune?

[p4chuss2]

Hi all.

Firstly I want to thank you all for all the valuable information I find always in this site. I is really THE VERY FIRST RESOURCE for me.

Introduction
I've been playing guitar for a long time, and always fascinated about jazz music. I've bought several guitar books over time, and now I am using Mel Bay's Jazz Guitar Method which I find great. I've followed several of your tips concentrating in arpeggios first instead of all scales up & down. I can play several arpeggios and scales almost comfortably on the guitar.

Problem
I realize that I am always practicing exercises but no tunes. I would like to focus in improvising. But I don't get to sound jazzy or interesting while improvising (mainly over Aebersold recordings). A reason might be that I actually don't play any tune (I read somewhere in this forum, that I should learn tunes instead of only playing exercises or trying to improvise)

About learning tunes
Now that I want to combine exercises with tunes, I really don't know how to really start. I am used to blues tunes or some folk or rock songs. To play folk or rock songs I usually strum chords only, and then play a solo. When trying to play jazz tunes and when listening to great jazz players (Joe Pass, for example) I realize that they play "solos" combined with chords. And I don't know how to really learn a tune.

Questions
Only strumming chords seems to be boring and does not sound so jazzy. If I could sing this would be much more fun (for tunes with lyrics), but I can't (believe, I get throat-ache every time I try). How do you usually learn tunes? How do you make it more fun? For example: playing "Joy Spring" chords on the guitar as the only one instrument doesn't seem to be so exciting. The same with "So what" or any song from the Kind of Blue album. I am doing something wrong? I cannot have fun strumming just the "All Blue" chords... How can tunes help me to better improvise if I have to improvise over those tunes to learn them?

I am a bit lost here on how to have fun and learn tunes without the ability to improvise....

Thank you so much for everything!

[MattC]

Start with simple tunes. At the level you're at I wouldn't touch something like "Joy Spring." This thread has a link to a list of tunes graded by difficulty. Aebersold and others have created similar lists. But definitely use some type of criteria for tune selection like:
-you love the tune
-there are great interpretations of the tune by jazz masters you love
-the melody is fairly simple, think singable and memorable
-it uses one, or maybe two key centers
-if it modulates, it goes only to a closely related key, defined as a relative major or minor (Cmajor and A minor)
or a key that has only one more or less sharp or flat (C major and F major or C major and G major, etc.)

Once you select a tune, listen to your favorite version(s) a lot. Like dozens or hundreds of times. Listen carefully to what the master(s) did in their versions. Sing the tune. Learn the words. Try to learn as much by ear as you can, including the chords. It's okay to use charts, but try to not completely rely on the chart to learn and memorize the tune. Understand the form of the tune: 12 bar blues, 32 bar AABA, 32 bar ABAC, 16 bar are the most common forms. Form is very important.

Learn to play the chords of the tune in various positions of the guitar with various voicings. After you've done this for awhile, play the chords as arpeggios. Play things like just the root of the chord for a full chorus. Then the root and the third of the chord. Then the third and the seventh of the chord. Etc., etc.

When you really, really have this stuff in your ears and under your fingers, start to approach notes of the chords from other diatonic or chromatic notes a step above or below the chord tone. These other tones are called neighbor tones. At first play the neighbor tone on weak places in the beat like upbeats, and land on the chord tones on downbeats, especially the 1 and 3. This is a big part of jazz vocabulary. But you gotta know the chord tones before you start dressing them up in lots of neighbor tones.

You can see here that learning a tune covers a lot (everything?). This why step 1 (selecting tunes you love) is so important. Pick great tunes that have stood the test of time, and that you love, because you are going to play those tunes for the rest of your life.

Oh, and rhythm, time and articulation are all incredibly important as well.

Matt

[p4chuss2]

Start with simple tunes. ..... Matt

Thank you! That was fast!

Do you play the chords you figure out by listen to a record, or the ones you extract from a real book of play book? If I follow the chords from a chart I usually find out that:

1. The chords don't sound so exciting since they are basic chords
2. I strum 4 times per bar (every eight note in a 4/4) and ends up sounding "choppy"

Do you use alterations to decorate when playing from a songbook? Do you recommend playing from songbook or just trying to listening and figure our by yourself, which by the way, I found extremely difficult?

Thank you!!

[henryrobinett]

I always tell my students to start with the melody. Learn that separately from anything else. Play the melody until you can play it without hesitation or mistake.

Then learn the chords. Memorize them while humming the melody.

Improvise over the tune without assistance from reading the chords or from a play-a-long. Improvise based on your memory alone.

After THAT, then you're ready for playing it with a play-a-long, or better yet, with people.

[p4chuss2]

Thanks you for the reply.

It is true that sometimes I have some good ideas when playing alone (no backing track) which I lose when trying to play with backing track. It is like when hearing bass and or piano I get limited and the ideas do not flow.

A music teacher once told me that I concentrate too much on what the other musicians are playing (when I was trying jazz on a combo).

Do you have any other suggestions?

Btw, jazz is really hard! Is that also for you people? Was it also such hard and difficult for musicians like Jimmy Rainu, Joe Pass, Djando...??

[henryrobinett]

Everything is hard until you break it down. My suggestion is to take only a handful of tunes. Maybe three, maybe five. Not much more. Learn THOSE until you can play them in your sleep. The problem happens when you try to do too many things all at once. Start with JUST ONE SONG. When you've learned that one, start another song. Revisit the first song a little every day but focus on the 2nd song. Do this until you have five songs that are all a little different. A medium, a ballad, a waltz, a straight 8ths, a real hard swinging tune.

You'll find after that it'll be easier to learn songs. They fall into a pattern. But REALLY LEARN THOSE TUNES.

[mr. beaumont]

Great advice from Henry.

Learning your first five tunes inside out, and having them all be different styles will make the next five come SO much easier.

[henryrobinett]

Thanks Jeff. Oh and a bossa! That's probably your straight 8th tune.

[p4chuss2]

Thanks Henry!
Thanks Jeff!

[p4chuss2]

Hi all,

I've listened to you:

1. I've started with an easy song as MattC recommended. I started with "All of me"
2. Then I've learned the melody as HenryRobinett recommended.


I've recorded myself for the first time on youtube for you to help me and give me further recommendations if you can please:

(Note: in minute 2.08 I wanted to stop recording since lots of mistakes, but then I get relaxed and gets sounding better. If you don't want to listen to the 6 full bad sounding minutes, can you start at minute 2.10?)

Challenges I have are:

a) When I just play the melody from the Real Book I have to count. Otherwise I do to get into the next bar with the note that is written in Real Book.
b) When I just play the melody from the Real Book counting it sounds no swing. Boring. Lot's of space.
c) I do get lost if I don't count!!
d) I tried to learn apreggios and try to improvise but that's another thing. I get lost, and just play some notes without "hearing" them first.
e) I try to swing, not get lost, and lose the tempo

I you can please give me some advices on how to improve, what to do, what you see and would recommend, etc. I would appreciate it. Here's what I played and time:

0 to 1.00 --> Chords and melody
1.01 to 2.53 --> Melody with pick
2.54 to 3.58 --> Trying to solo
3.59 to end --> Chords and melody

Thank you!

[docbop]

To me your trying to practice two things at once reading learning the melody. The reading is taking mental process from learning the melody I would practice them as two different things.

Learning the tune get it inside you so listen, listen, listen to it, learn the lyrics they help with remembering the melody. Try transcribing the melody, use the Real Book just for a point of reference. The transcribing is good because you learn a measure or two and then try to pick it out on the guitar that is really drilling that melody into you. Once you have the melody memorized then focus on getting the phrasing down. George Benson did a nice version of All of Me on an early CD, but might be a bit fast for now. Their is a excellent Billy Holiday version on Youtube at relaxed tempo and great phrasing. All of our voices suck so get over it and sing the melody, singing you don't have to worry about guitar stuff, just the melody and feel.

So by now you show have the melody memorized and listen to it a few hundred times to have the time and feel inside you. Now focus on playing the melody on the guitar get your guitar and get it to be smooth like when you sing it. Try to sing and play the melody so the one helps the other. Now you got the tune in ONE key, now its guitar time use your ear and play it in another key, use your key and knowledge of the melody to play it and for extra challenge play it where the melody starts on a different string. This now is becoming an ear training and fretboard knowledge lesson.

Okay now you have a melody of a tune can move it to another key or two or three, now to memorize the chord progression and then move it to a couple keys. Now its becoming a theory lesson.

Okay you want to improvise well start by embellishing the melody adding a few notes here and there think Louis Armstrong there are Youtubes of him doing All of Me. Louis' solos used a lot of the melody in them. You know the chord practice playing the arpeggios of the song in eighth notes to get the chord tones in your ears.

We aren't even close to being done, but you can see how really learning one song inside-out can teach a whole lot. After you learn one song this way each song after gets simpler and simpler to learn.

Sightreading is a whole another topic, but learning the tune should help with feeling time and developing internal clock so you won't have to be counting so much.

[p4chuss2]

Hi Docbop. Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

I'm feeling a little bit disappointed now But anyway I appreciate the answer and honest comments.

The thing is that I really really learned the melody for a long time now to the point that my wife is angry to have to listen to the same song again and again. I also tried to play it in different keys and strings, but then came back to the same position to not add more complexity. It also took me a long time and work to get those voicings. I tried, listened and studied different voicings so that I can have the melody line in the first strings.

Without backing tracks and with counting I get just melody without any "swing" and feeling. Without backing tracks and not counting I am not sure if I'm sticking to the bars. That's why I put the backing tracks.

What would you recommend me? It's like if I read your post again I get de-motivated since that was what I was doing for more than one month Mainly learning the melody and voicings.

I have listened all the versions you posted in the past month and listened also to the great G. Benson version (I actually own the record The George Benson Cookbook from 2001).

Help me please!!

Btw, I am not sure to have understood what you mean with "practicing two things at once reading the melody".

[henryrobinett]

I'm not in a place where I can listen to your youtube video, but try just humming the melody. You should break away from reading or counting the melody. Sing it AWAY from the guitar. Sing or hum it till you're blue in the face. Learn to sing it away from a play-a-long or Benson recordings or any other recordings. Sing it just by your own voice with no other accompaniment. When you can do that pick up your guitar again and play the melody like you sang it.

Reading it and counting is the stage at the very beginning of learning the melody. Unless you can read very, very well it's going to be mechanical and probably won't sound very musical. As soon as you can, memorize it. Interpret the melody. It's ok to put your own spin on it. You don't have to phrase it exactly like it was written or exactly like some other person phrased it, unless you're studying that persons style. But get the essence of the melody; it's basic notes and rhythms, hills and valleys. Listen to how Miles takes liberties with melodies. He makes them his own.

Then play the chords while you hum it so you have the melody with the chords.

[docbop]

Hi Docbop. Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

I'm feeling a little bit disappointed now But anyway I appreciate the answer and honest comments.

Why be disappointed all I did was say your trying to do too much at once, break things in to pieces.

The thing is that I really really learned the melody for a long time now to the point that my wife is angry to have to listen to the same song again and again. I also tried to play it in different keys and strings, but then came back to the same position to not add more complexity. It also took me a long time and work to get those voicings. I tried, listened and studied different voicings so that I can have the melody line in the first strings.

Again just focus on the melody for now try playing it on one or two strings. If you can do that you know the melody. Then time to start playing in musically, soulfully, and when you can play it with good feeling and phrasing your wife will like it too.


Without backing tracks and with counting I get just melody without any "swing" and feeling. Without backing tracks and not counting I am not sure if I'm sticking to the bars. That's why I put the backing tracks.

Just play it by yourself sound like the reading and backing tracks are intimidating you. Once you got the melody in you to where you can play it musically by yourself then start with backing tracks.

What would you recommend me? It's like if I read your post again I get de-motivated since that was what I was doing for more than one month Mainly learning the melody and voicings.

Everyone learns at difference speeds and I think you're being too tough on yourself, playing always has to be fun even when working on tough stuff you need to be enjoying working on something tough. Plus once you accomplish what your working on you'll enjoy it even more because you earned it.

I have listened all the versions you posted in the past month and listened also to the great G. Benson version (I actually own the record The George Benson Cookbook from 2001).

I hadn't heard the Benson in a long time I thought he solo'd on it, but I listened later yesterday and discovered only Ronnie Cuber slowed. So wasn't a good example sorry.

Help me please!!

Btw, I am not sure to have understood what you mean with "practicing two things at once reading the melody".

You talked so much about reading and counting, then memorizing the melody. To me reading and counting is one thing, memorizing a melody/tune and a different thing. Those two things need to be practiced in different ways and mindsets. in fact once you know the melody then going back and reading you should be able to start "feeling" the time more and count less. Also once you know the melody then try to read it you can focus on reading and fretboard less. You will start seeing how the dots on the staff are this fretboard interval shape.

All this stuff takes time and a different amount of time for every person. Also as adults we start becoming over critical of ourselves when learning things. We need to be more like kids and just keep trying and let it happen when it happens and enjoy the journey. From teaching computers to adults I've seen a lot of this they judge themselves too much. Where kids aren't afraid to make a mistake a thousand times till they figure it out. Relax enjoy working on learning things stop thinking "I should know this by now".

Listen to the Louis Armstrong video more and the joy coming through the playing.

[mr. beaumont]

So after watching the video I'll make a few observations.

I think space makes you nervous...you're ahead a lot on the melody, and your body language looks uncomfortable...check out a few of these records: Diane, by Chet Baker and Paul Bley, Chiaroscuro, bh Ralph Towner and Paulo Fresu, and Live at Birdland with Lee Konitz, Paul Motian and Brad Mehldau...listen to how little they play...and nothing falls apart.

Watching your body language, you actually relax when you start improvising, you weirdo That's great...what you need to start doing is approach the melody from the standpoint that it's not set in stone...you can play with things, like a good singer...yes, don't overdo it, but relax and breathe, and if you want to throw in a little lick or hang on a note a little longer, go for it.

I'd put the backing track away too...try imagining a really loose drummer in your head and play along to him...most backing tracks, especially for these older tunes, "swing" pretty straight and square...force yourself to deal with silence...hear it and embrace it...ever hear Eric Dolphy take an unaccompanied solo?

Keep at it. I'm now about ten years into playing only jazz and I'm playing at a level I'd call "occasionally not bad."

It's a journey, for sure!

[WesMan]

Hi there,

i think an assessment is not complete without taking into account some of your strengths. For example, I like the touch you have on your chording, and I think also that you have a good feel, but the problems with learning the tune are not letting it shine through as much as it might if you were more sure of yourself with all of the elements of the song.

I also like what Henry has to say about getting to know the tune away from the guitar. That way you are less at mercy to muscle memory. This is something I just started working on myself, and it's cool to have validation from a professional. (Check out his sound clips!) that this might be a good idea.

[WesMan]

"Watching your body language, you actually relax when you start improvising, you weirdo That's great..."


+1!

[p4chuss2]

Thank you all so much for taking your time listening, watching and answering. I really appreciate your answers and comments. I have read a few times each of your answers in order to be able to be sure to get the max. of it. Thanks docbop, henryrobinett, mr. Beaumon and WesMan.

I will work on it and post my progress following your recommendations.

[eddy b.]

P4 you are on the right track!! It is great that you are open to constructive criticism. I only want to encourage you to be patient like Mr. B says ten years is about the amount of time it takes most of us to get comfortable with jazz guitar playing. Be patient and don't judge yourself harshly. It's like you're a little kid learning how to walk...if all that kid does is berate himself for falling every time he lets go of the table the kid will give up. Be kind to yourself in your head, take pleasure in what you are doing correct and laugh at the "mistakes" it's all there to learn from. Keep going you're gonna get it!!!

[p4chuss2]

Thank you eddy

[Reg]

Personally... I know hundreds of tunes, and can fake the ones I don't know, because I know and understand musical forms. All music fits into space, that space is a form.

You start with the basic overall Forms... A, A B , A B A, A A B A , A B A C, A B A C A B A etc... The actually number of bars, an outline of the tune, 8 bars, 12 bars, 16 bars etc...
There are only so many standard forms. Some have simple little changes, additions etc..

Then you apply that Form concept to chord patterns, melodic patterns and rhythm.

The point your heading towards is you'll become aware of how composition works... you become comfortable with the space of tunes... whether your playing or not.

Almost all tune are common patterns, melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. The simple changes to those patterns are what help you remember each tune.

You'll also begin to be able to feel that space... you'll feel 2 bar, 4 bars, 8 bars spaces etc...

Unless you have photographic memory, you need aids to help memorize tunes.

Reg

[Badge]

All this stuff takes time and a different amount of time for every person. Also as adults we start becoming over critical of ourselves when learning things. We need to be more like kids and just keep trying and let it happen when it happens and enjoy the journey. From teaching computers to adults I've seen a lot of this they judge themselves too much. Where kids aren't afraid to make a mistake a thousand times till they figure it out. Relax enjoy working on learning things stop thinking "I should know this by now".

This is the essence of the problem for us adults - same problem with adults learning foreign languages. If you were a kid, you would grind through 10 years or so of solid learning without any ambition or impatience and pop out at the end with some real skills etc. Adults want to be experts overnight and we are so impatient. Have a think about your trade and how long it took you to master it (and for most of us that was full time, not an hour grabbed here and there as is the jazz guitar route for an amateur like me) - kids coming into my trade (law) with 6 years tertiary study are not much chop for at least 6 years. It takes about 10 years to really know what you are doing. I'm not at all surprised that the jazz language, and jazz guitar, are no different...

Guaranteed too that, if it were easy, none of us would have the slightest interest in it!