Blue bossa & melodic scales

[Ronen]

Play Blue Bossa, starting Cm, and looking for licks over minor 251 that use melodic.

I'm trying the following scales
for 2 - F melodic
for 5 - Ab melodic
for 1 - C melodic

Too many scales and thus too complex to build lick...

Thanks,
Ronen

[JohnW400]

Sorry,

I don't understand what you're saying.

The mainn section is basically in c minor so you could play up to the Eb mi7 using C melodic, except for the Fmi where you would play C natural minor. The Next section of 4 measures of Eb melodic minor resolving to Db major oy Lydian. of course this is if you want to use the melodic minor on *most* of the tune.

[Sailor]

What else can I play over the second part Ebm, Ab7, DbM7.

Sailor

[JohnW400]

Sailor, I find that using the 3rd mode off of the Eb jazz melodic minor gets me through the Eb mi7 and Ab7 chords since it's the third of the Eb and the 7th of the Ab. This way I avoid scales starting on the root. Then use Db Lydian or the 3rd mode from Bb melodic minor (Db Eb F G A Bb C Db) which will give you a major7th with an alternate 5 sound.

Also I correct my post above. I shouldn't "post and run" I made a mistake.

[Ronen]

I meant to ask about the minor 2-5-1,
| Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm7 | Cm7 | of blue bossa.

While learning melodic scales, im trying to figure out scales / licks for that part.

I though that the following scales are suitable
for Dm7b5 - F melodic minor
for G7 - Ab melodic minor
for Cm - C melodic minor

But I found I have too many scales.

So what i'm asking...
Can you help with licks / scales for that part?

Ronen

[JohnW400]

Try to limit the amount of scales untill you get them under your fingers (which is what I was trying to get across with my original post)

On the ii7b5 to V you can use the C natural minor or harmonic minor and their modes. Looking at all the notes you see the only change from the Cminor melodic is the A versus the Ab.

Anyway, here's a couple of licks for you

[m78w]

Another cool approach uses the arpeggios and comes from Joe Diorio's teachings.

For the Dm7b5 play a Dm7b5 arpeggio, DFAC, then just move that shape up 3 frets for the G7alt chord and play an Fm7b5 arpeggio, F Ab B Eb, which outlines a G7alt chord. Then take the same shape and move it up 4 frets to play an Am7b5 chord over the Cm7 chord, A C Eb G, which outlines a Cm6 sound.

So you can use one shape to manouver through three chords.

MW

[Sailor]

At my stage this approach is easier Matt. I hate to keep asking but blue bossa done in your prescribed manner would make a great lesson?????

Sailor

[m78w]

Sure thing, I wrote a chord melody for it that I'll repost as the original is probably burried somewhere on the site. I'll have a chord study up later today!

MW

[Sailor]

Thanks Matt - I have your blue bossa CM and chord study but I'm not sure if that defines the ARP approach to soloing over this song, especially second part?????????? I could easily be WRONG!!

Another quick question. In another thread Jake clearly said that ii -V-I shouldn't be thought of as dorian, mixo, Ionian. I never got clear with this; it sure seems to be exactly that when you play those scales or look at the arps to the chords?? Any advice or comment greatly appreciated.

Sailor

[m78w]

I wouldn't think of it as Dorian, Mixolydian and Ionian because they are all the same scale. I would just think of the key center, say C major, when the chords are Dm7 G7 and Cmaj7.

Just keeps things simple, check out the chord study there are several spots where I used the m7b5 up a m3 then M3, hope that's what you were looking for.

MW

[Ronen]

MW78. these Arps works well.

I like the melodic and harmonic scales thus Im still looking for simple approach for using them and mainly over the minor 2-3-5

[Ronen]

Tnx, great lick. Can you breakdown it to explian how it was built?

[Ronen]

Found the breakdown in sheet, thanks

[m78w]

Try this trick that I got from Pat Martino:

Over Dm7b5-G7b9 play C harmonic minor, then over the Cm7 play C melodic minor.

So you're really only changing one note, the Ab-A, between the two scales.


MW

[Jake Hanlon]

Sus arpeggios everywhere and always!!!

Muahahahahahaha.

Tri-tone subs with wreckless abandon.

Sequenced Diminished Scales.

That's jazz right?

[JohnW400]

Ronen, are are you asking Matt or me to breakdown the the lick? If It's the lick I posted, I tried to use the key notes from each melodic minor scale you mention in your original post. The exception is the Ebmi where I use just the Eb melodic minor to a Db lydian.

[ShiffronLandren]

Hey all,
As with all minor II-V-Is, the simplest, most economical approach is to play the harmonic minor scale of the tonic chord. Why would you want to give yourself a headache by playing a separate scale for each chord when the notes of the D mi7b5 and G7 are contained in C harmonic minor? It's a matter of using your ear and targeting those notes. Practically speaking, the duration of each chord really doesn't allow the improvisor to establish the colors of multiple scales. One or two chord tones, plus approach notes, will spell out the harmony quite nicely and is plenty to work with. Keep it simple dudes!

[funnyval]

How's this for keeping it simple, dudes (guy dudes and any chick dudes out there). Look at the melody for measures 1 - 8 and 13 - 16. It is completely from the C natural minor scale.

On the G7, the gives the b9, #9, and b13 alterations that everyone is usually looking for to add spice to the chord anyway. If you want to give the G7 it's basic flavor, play the 3rd (B note).

The melody in measures 9 - 12 is completely from the Db major scale.

So two basic scales as an improvisation basis for the whole tune. Add color tones, passing tones, approach tones, altered tones, etc. as desired.

[Breezy]

Another look that 's fun:
Dm7b5= Fm7 arp (better if you learn it on fret 3 with G.
G7= Ab melodic minor ..to get the 'alt scale
Cm= whatever you like....Cm dorian, Cm blues, etc.
I know the Fm7 arp is just another way of saying the normal --but-- I heard Benson do it and it turned out easier to remember and become one of my staples
Breezy

[Electric Larry]

D dim. arp. works nicely. D F G# B D F G# then slide down to G into C har min. Lands on the G# which is b9 of G7 and G is the5th of Cmin.

[Sailor]

I like when such a simple tune brings up such diverse answers, must be the nature of Jazz. Is Funnyval correct?? C minor and Db Major take care of it??

I also like shiffrons "headache" answer; at a certain tempo it's hard to incorporate too many scales, (for me).

Sailor

[Electric Larry]

The keyboard player I work with graduated from N. texas with a degree
in jazz, and has many yrs. of hard boppin' experience. I came through the
blues and don't have the jazz experience he has. He always tells me
"don't think in terms of scales, because you'll sound like your practicing
when you solo". He emphacizes learning the proven cliche's and think
in terms of playing the changes. He had me listen to Sonny Rollins doing
old devil moon, which is a really hard song to solo on. He does it with
just bass and drums, and I swear you can hear the chords changing,
and there aren't any. His point is to outline the chords with your solo.

[Electric Larry]

Learn the scales and understand chord scale relationship, then forget about them and just solo. Funnyval is right, and I would add the harm.
minor over Dm7b5 to Galt. to Cm7.... I think someone else mentioned that.

[gravitas]

One cool one that I find works really well over both Minor and Half Diminished chords is the Half Diminished Pentatonic scale... It's basically the blues scale with the omitted natural five. If you're playing over C Minor7 for example, the tones you would get would be:

1 b3 4 b5 7
C Eb F Gb Bb

But then again you could take the same shape down a minor third so that it outlines an AMin7b5 chord and play the exact same notes, but this time the tones the shape would yield would be

1 b3 4 b5 7
A C D Eb G

Over the original C Minor scale this gives you the minor third and the root as well as the 6th and the 9th, so a really hip Dorian type of vibe. But if you were to play it over AMin7b5, you get the colour of AMin7b5(11) with no more thought process than you would give to playing the blues scale.