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  1. #1

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    I started working on "On green Dolphin Street" a couple of months ago, and I can functionally get through it pretty well now (scales, arpeggios, basic chords), but I'm looking for different ways to spice it up (substitutions, modern voicings etc.).

    Anybody out there with some advice! Thx if you have any thoughts or resources!

    Anyone with some Lenny voicings?

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  3. #2

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    This song is typically played in either C or Eb, but often is played in both keys (modulating from C to Eb at the recapitulation of the A section). That makes for an interesting variation. This version is in the "Colorado Cookbook" if you happen to have a copy of that.

    Also make sure to go back and forth between swing and Latin feels...also adds a lot of variety.

    Other than that, standard subs & voicings apply.

  4. #3

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    any tunes that are similar to this tune?

    I like this tune a lot. can't find anything quite like it.

  5. #4

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    you might like The Night has A Thousand Eyes... similar in terms it has a pedal A section and typically swung alternate sections. I prefer that tune to Green Dolphin more then likely because it's a very very commonly played tune (sort of like say All the Things You Are) and it's easy to get a little bit burnt out on it. The good thing though is that every time drummers will interpret the straight sections a little differently which at least makes it different every time.

    Personally when playing these tunes I dislike it if every 8 bars the feel changes. I think it works great for the tune and the first chorus or two (depending) but after that I always feel boxed in a little too much, it can be hard to get to the next level when every 8 bars the groove is getting pulled out from under you. That's just me tho.

  6. #5
    Thx a lot folks. I didn't know about the recap in the key of Eflat.

    'The Night Has a Thousand Eyes' is a beautiful tune. I think I used to have a version of Hank Mobley that I really liked, but I can't find it. I was actually working on GDS because it is a commonly-played standard, but find myself a little stuck. In general, that's how I am with jazz improv. That is, I've gotten to the point of being able to play okay through changes, but I'm just not getting any real juice out of it......immature phrasing is probably agood part of it. I also just recently started using chromatics, which helps a bit but still a little too "regular" sounding.

  7. #6

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    Transitioning feel tunes are way harder Rhythmically in terms of role as a member of the rhythm section then they seem to be at the start. If you listen closely on most recordings people push in the swing sections so they don't end up dragging the piece as a whole

  8. #7

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    I don't know if this is what you're looking for but have you tried simplifying even more? Reducing your chords to 2 note voicings (maybe 3rd and 7th) and absorbing the way you can use space, in rhythm, in adding a note at a time, in really learning to hear the entirety of the tune when you're playing as little as possible? If you do this right, really great substitutions come right out if these sounds.
    It sounds like you're starting out, and you have a real great chance to learn to hear without clutter. Clear out the room, learn to feel how the tune fills the space, and build your chords carefully from there. You'll even come across Lenny before too long. It might be closer than you think.
    Just my 1/2 cent thought... have fun
    David

  9. #8

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    Just changing the voicing of the chords helps. Try these inversions for the chords on the head .. all the same fingering:

    C - play G-A-C
    Cm - play F-G-Bb
    D9 - play E-F#-A
    Db9 - play Eb-F-Ab
    C - play D-E-G

  10. #9
    Interestng idea David .......I'll be checking that out for sure. If I understand you correctly........you are playing the 3rd and 7th of each chord and testing out chord tones or small melodic motifs against them?

    Hey Brian, those are some nice close voicings for sure!

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jzzr
    Interestng idea David .......I'll be checking that out for sure. If I understand you correctly........you are playing the 3rd and 7th of each chord and testing out chord tones or small melodic motifs against them?
    Yeah, that's right. Sometimes we wind up playing notes that fill out a chord, and that's great. Sometimes in the search for new sounds, it helps to take the essential elements. Sometimes that winds up being just the perfect sound.
    Try it out. Make it an exercise to be able to go as far as you can by hearing the changes through just the 3 and 7. Once you can hear that, you're in good shape. You can fill out the chord if you want.
    A useful exercise and you might build up quite a few new sounds to choose from.
    Enjoy-
    David

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by markf
    any tunes that are similar to this tune?

    I like this tune a lot. can't find anything quite like it.

    none quite like gds, but you may find interesting:

    invitation (same composer, played all sorts of ways--fast, slow, latin swing)

    nica's dream (latin/swing)

    tin tin deo (sometimes played l/s)

    night in tunisia (l/s)

    con alma (just a great tune)

  13. #12
    Those are some great tunes Randall. Thank you. It gets me thinking.....wonder what Stella would sound like as a bossa......maybe a slow bossa with a strong groove.

    There are a couple of reasons I'm focusing on GDS right now. One is some of the progressions in the tune such as the D7 to Db7. I want to study different ways to flow through that progression. Another spot is the 2nd A section. Also, I'm interested in getting a more modern phrasing for this tune as has been pointed out.......the tune has been played a lot, and ut needs some sort of spice.

    I'm definitely going to folliw up this weekend with the 3rd and 7th ideas as well as with some of the ideas from the phrasung post on another thread. Undoubtedly however, it's going to take some time to incorporte these great concepts. LOL!! Will update however.

  14. #13

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    In the thread I called Playing standards in a jazz style... I covered Invitation and Nica's dream. Always dig GDS and stella... Changing feel in tunes is about who's playing as much as it's about the concept. You shouldn't loose the feel when different sections are played in different styles. I need to post more tunes, I'll gladly cover GDS or Night has a 1000 eyes, Stella etc... I play them all the time at gigs...pick one Reg

  15. #14
    Hey Reg,

    You are awesome. I would love a post of GDS. I am particularly interested in various ways of approaching the D7 to Db7. I am also interested in different phrasing ideas and substitutions throughout the song. Been listening to a really cool version with Sylvain Luc and Bilreli Lagrene. Also, recently found an iPhone app for Amazing Slow Downer for a bit of transcription.

    Thx for any input!

  16. #15

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    This might seem like a stupid question, but I've read the aforementioned changes in the 'A' section as Dmaj7 Dbmaj7, not D7 Db7. Is either correct or incorrect? I'm slightly confused

    -Aaron

  17. #16

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    I've always played the A section over a C pedal (which makes it D7/C to Dbma7/C) but I have seen it notated as dominant 7ths.

    FWIW, I like triads and quartal voicings over pedals so if the OP is looking for a suggestion he might try:

    Cma7 as G/C (8xx787)
    Cmi7 as Eb/C (8xx888)
    D7/c as D/C (8x12 11 10x)
    Dbma7/C as Db/C (8x 11 10 9 c)
    Cma7 -

    The possibilities are endless

  18. #17
    Yes....i've seen it as both. Great suggestion with the triads, or the way Brian had it above with the add 2 close voicings. But for soloing, I dont know.

  19. #18

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    I've been working with On Green Dolphin Street for sometime and just recently started working on The Night Has a Thousand Eyes. I really love standards that have style changes from latin to swing to latin to swing just because of the fact it really keeps me on my feet. Listening to the Hank Mobley and Donald Bryd version, I found that key to any of those songs is having a great rhythm section. Horace Silver seems to make the style changes fit perfectly together.

  20. #19

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    Greetings- I've been working with Robert Conti's DVD's - specifically "Ticket to Improv Vol 1. The 2nd song is Green Dolphin Street and I have a question regarding the harmony. This focuses on bars 7-8 which from the Real book is simply 2 bars of CMa7. Robert changed it up and plays the chords below. | C6 B7#5 | Bb13 A7 | I'm trying to understand how these chords fit into C Major. I get the A7 is a VI chords. Are the B7#5 and Bb13 just passing chords? Should I just think of this still as 2 bars of CMa7? The line over these 2 bars is a nice bluesy line with some chromatic approaches. I love the line and want to steal it I just want understand it better so I can use it properly. Thanks!
    Last edited by j-mo; 10-04-2012 at 10:58 AM.

  21. #20

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    Hey j-mo,
    There are a few methods of hearing or understanding the Turn Around.
    The simple analysis is A7, (usually altered), is V7 of Dmin7 and the B7, Bb7 are extended Dom. chords. (or subs of Dom.)

    In jazz that series of chords is just one of many commonly used Chord Patterns, Chord Patterns are series of chords that are basically played and used by Jazz Players as functioning as One Chord. Chord patterns come from Jazz standards, basically any set of changes used in any standard, can function as Chord Pattern.

    A simple II- V7 is a chord pattern, Long story short... they help create movement and generally reflect what type of Harmonic approach jazz players are using.

    In Green Dolphin... The A7 can have analysis of VI7.... or V7 of II-7(D-7)
    Generally VI7 would imply more of functional target, the V7/II- is more of an approach, the D-7 is the tonal area or target and the A7 has approach function.... Generally that chord pattern...B7, Bb7, A7 is an approach chord pattern. The chords are approaching the target or D-7.

    There are many methods of playing, comping and soloing. The choice of note collections would reflect harmonic concept being used. The passage is generally played and heard as a Dom. relationship to Dmin.

    I generally pull from B7altered, Bb7 lydian b7, and A7altered, all in the context of approaching the target Dmin.

    I'm giving or referencing scales or note collections for complete explanation of where I would start from... when we solo... you generally don't simply play scales or arpeggios, but you do have a reference or starting point from which to base what your playing on.
    Some like to think or hear tonal center from which to base your reference. With jazz there are also many short tern tonal center references, which reflect in choices from where to pull from harmonically.

    If it seems like I'm dancing around a simple question... sorry. If you simply take the simple approach... generally that's what you'll sound like... somewhat straight, you might be playing a jazz tune, but you won't be playing like a jazz player.
    Reg

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by j-mo
    | C6 B7#5 | Bb13 A7 | I'm trying to understand how these chords fit into C Major.
    Well, the first chord (C6) is in the key of C, the other three are not...

    I get the A7 is a VI chords. Are the B7#5 and Bb13 just passing chords?
    Well, actually the A7 is not a VI chord in the key of C. It could be a secondary dominant, or just a quick modulation, but since you didn't tell us what the entire chord progression is, it is hard to analyze, as every chord has to be analyzed in context of the entire chord progression. The A7 is definitely not a VI chord. It could be a sub for the VI chord....

    Should I just think of this still as 2 bars of CMa7?
    Well sometimes when you have fast chromatic chord changes like that, you can just solo in the original scale, rather than trying to put a different scale to each chord, and this has the effect of making your solo over those chords sound "outside" when you are really not doing anything in particular to get "outside" the chords simply take you there. However, those 2 bars are definitely not in the key of C major.

    To me it just looks a simple chromatic chord movement, you'll notice the lower 3 voices can move down chromatically while the top voice can stay the same, if you play it like this:

    8x798x, 7x788x, 6x678x, 5x568x

    Another interesting thing about chromatically moving dominant 7 chords is they are all like altered V7s of each other. For example the B7#5 can be thought of as a F9b5, which is the V of the next chord Bb13, and the Bb13 can be thought of as an E7#9b5, which is the V of the next chord A7.

    As a general rule, you can do this type of thing in any chord progression, in any key, it doesn't matter. Obviously when you have something like 2 bars of one chord, that is a good opportunity to try some chord sub ideas. There is no specific set of rules of how to do this, but you generally have your starting chord, and the target chord you want to end on, how you get there is up to you and has many possibilities. Dominants tend to work the best as I explained, since they suggest a simple V of V cycle. Just another note, the strongest harmonic movement in music is the interval of a 4th, i.e. V to I, or in this case a kind of V of V cycle, or any other two chords that are a perfect 4th apart. We call this type of chord progression a "circle progression" referring to the circle of fifths/fourths.

  23. #22

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    This is a perfect example of why people need to:
    1. Learn songs
    2. Learn how chords and chord movement can be used in songs.

    In this case, instead of playing two bars of C, then going to Dm, he's targeting the Dm by playing its V7, A7, to increase the "harmonic pull" to Dm. Then. he's thinking "how can I best get to A7 from C ?" So he moves chromatically down in half-steps from C to his target A7 and on to Dm. Think of it as a chromatic back-cycle. This kind of thing was commonly done in ragtime, early jazz and swing.

    By the way, it really isn't a turnaround, A turnaround takes the end of the tune back to the top. This is simply the verse heading through the channel to the chorus. There's a turnaround at the end of the chorus.

    Jazzadelic's suggestion to play the decending chords with the common tone "G" on top is good for playing a simple line that bounces back and forth from the G to the decending third of each chord and really nails the changes without getting into a theoretical tangle.

    Try not to overthink or overcomplicate this stuff. I'm sure that if you e-mail Bob he would explain it to you. He's a regular guy.

  24. #23

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    Hey Monk... is a turnaround... simply the physical location... or are there other considerations...

    And yea... how can anyone playing Jazz not know Green Dolphin St.... that's like not knowing Blues changes.

    Just for a little more info.... That chord pattern... is just one of many used in that little two bar (turnaround, sorry monk... turnaround is the term used... it is standard practice to use the word when any Form has repeated sections...AABA, ABAB etc... when ever any section returns to a previous section. And when actually playing...the term is used to indicate any short chord pattern which harmonically sets up what's coming
    ... much looser than just relating to thematic material..)

    I mean... when playing GDS... that two bar turnaround usually changes as much as the actual changes do during the performance.

    Yes... learn the tune... that is the starting point, where you begin. When playing commonly performed and recorded tunes.... like GDS, there are so many already accepted and played versions of the tune. You almost don't need to start with the basic version... everyone already knows the tune... the melody and harmonic movement is there whether you play it or not. ... I'll come up with something to show examples of how turnarounds work... like I said they are heard as basically one chord... like a pedal to get back to target. You can play inside, through or outside the changes and generally as long as your approaching the target... works very well.
    Reg

  25. #24

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    Anyone else find the choice of B7#5 odd? The melody note (across both bars) is E. That's fine with Bb13(#11) and A7, but B7?

    Of course it works functionally, as explained well above (and there's the obvious implication of holding the G note across all 4 chords, with the #5 on B, 13 on Bb and 7 on A). No problem in solos. But not on the head, surely? (or make it a B7sus if it is?)

  26. #25

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    Hey Jon.. yes what is Bb7#5... it's obviously Bb7b13 . Last time I check it's not a matching numbers game. Think pedals, ostinato that type of concept if you have difficulty hearing or seeing notes that don't fit your equation, or line up.

    Isn't the melody note G in Cmaj chart and transposed as needed.

  27. #26

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    Yes, Reg, you're right about the G - my bad. Sorry I just took a quick look at a lead sheet, saw the note in the top space (on Cmaj7), without noticing it was bass clef... (duh Clearly I don't know this tune as well as I should...)

    BTW, though, it's B7#5 and Bb13 - that gives the G in both cases. Clearly (then) harmonising the melody was the reason for those alterations/extensions.
    The dom7s themselves - as I think you said - can be seen as tritone subs, or at least the Bb13 can (for E7alt).
    Last edited by JonR; 10-05-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Monk... is a turnaround... simply the physical location... or are there other considerations...
    I hear what you're saying Reg and I'll respectfully disagree with you. At that point in the form, the song isn't turning around, it's still moving forward. I was taught that the phrase that leads from one section of the form to another is a cadence and that the turnaround ends the form and returns to the top. We simply have two ways of looking at the same thing.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    I hear what you're saying Reg and I'll respectfully disagree with you. At that point in the form, the song isn't turning around, it's still moving forward. I was taught that the phrase that leads from one section of the form to another is a cadence and that the turnaround ends the form and returns to the top. We simply have two ways of looking at the same thing.
    So it's a simple physical location thing... Where and who taught you and about what music... If I give you page numbers from Groves, dictionary of music as well as dictionary of jazz... would that be enough to maybe change your opinion. Do you really refer to chordal patterns as cadences when they set up any section of any form... that would be great at gig.

    The same set of changes used....at end of a tune...are a turnaround only when they return to the top of tune... what if the tune has a intro that's part of the form... or goes to a solo section... an interlude...this is a little silly, I could give tons of examples where the physical location concept breaks down.

    We're not looking at the same thing... I'm talking about jazz, Green Dolphin ST...right, not contrapuntal music from hundreds of years ago.
    I'll check in later... this is cool, I'll post some turnarounds... and we can decide which ones are cadences and which are real "turnarounds"

    Reg

  30. #29

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    Re turnarounds, I was made aware of their uses [beyond getting back to the top] by David Baker's book Jazz Improvisation.

    Baker offers various purposes for what he calls Turnbacks.

    1 The composition calls for that progression.
    2 The last two bars of one section of a tune consists of a tonic chord and the first beat of the next section is also a a tonic chord.
    3 To add forward motion in an inactive flat patch in the harmony of a tune.

    ....The third example could be used to rationalize what's happening in the
    situation that we're dealing with here.

    In fact isn't one of the main stand points of jazz harmony the use of
    forward motion?....anything to avoid a vacuum.
    I like Howard Rees' words: "As I see it either one becomes a becomes a
    chord "hitter" or a chord "mover".
    [Rees is the Barry Harris inspired pianist, writing in the intro to Alan Kingstone's Harmonic Method for Guitar]

  31. #30

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    Hey Moonray...
    Great references, Although I dig Howards metaphors for hitters, the traditional player who plays jazz tunes and the mover... much better representation of what playing jazz is, at least metaphorically... I'm not a big fan of Harris method... I have been through and understand the concepts... just don't like the mechanics, or the resulting sound. I still totally dig Harris, and all he does...

    Don't hear many using... Baker's ?..term Turnback much anymore. Sometimes in reference reading etc...never performing.

    Your point about motion is much more relevant... even in stagnant harmony there is movement. Not always with tonal, can be with modal concepts... anyway

    I understand western classical theory and terms, but they don't always apply to jazz concepts and usage of musical term, hell they don't really apply to much of late Romanticism, Impressionism and 20th century tonal music. I get carried away with the obvious sometimes... Man I got to go... work. Would dig hearing more of your views etc... I have doubles Sat and Sun... will check in when I can..
    Reg

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So it's a simple physical location thing... Where and who taught you and about what music... If I give you page numbers from Groves, dictionary of music as well as dictionary of jazz... would that be enough to maybe change your opinion. Do you really refer to chordal patterns as cadences when they set up any section of any form... that would be great at gig.

    The same set of changes used....at end of a tune...are a turnaround only when they return to the top of tune... what if the tune has a intro that's part of the form... or goes to a solo section... an interlude...this is a little silly, I could give tons of examples where the physical location concept breaks down.

    We're not looking at the same thing... I'm talking about jazz, Green Dolphin ST...right, not contrapuntal music from hundreds of years ago.
    I'll check in later... this is cool, I'll post some turnarounds... and we can decide which ones are cadences and which are real "turnarounds"

    Reg
    Reg,
    I"m always willing to listen to what someone has to say. By all means, post page numbers and I'll be happy to take the time to look them up. As to where I learned most of what I know about theory, It was from Sarah Vaughn's pianist, Carl Schroeder. While you're looking for your Grove's, here's what my Harvard Dictionary of Music says about cadences.

    "Cadence-A melodic or harmonic formula that occurs at the end of a composition, a section or a phrase, conveying the impression of a momentary or permanent conclusion."

  33. #32

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    Turnaround, turnback. In jazz, a passage occurring at the end of one section of a form leading harmonically or melodically to the next, especially to the repetition of the section or of the entire form...--the new harvard dictionary of music...

  34. #33

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    Hey Monk... yea I remember Carl back in late 70's and 80's down in LA, I was teaching at UCLA. So Carl taught you to use term Cadence or Channel to refer to series of chords... a Chord pattern... at end of section of music... in a jazz tune which gets you back to beginning or next section. Not that common in actual usage... maybe in composition. Somewhat a stretch, but OK.

    I found your reference in older Harvard dictionary of music...mainly deals with Western Classical tradition and the latest reference to actual music was late 1800's... from development of harmonic vocabulary, composition of novelty and modal cadences, again all with reference to Western Classical tradition. That article ends with, "Unfortunately the classification and terminology in this area lack uniformity and frequently also clarity." Now that resonates.

    I also have Randall's reference the new Harvard ed. and if you check in the Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music and Musicians, pg 693, you'll see, " In Jazz, a turnaround is a passage at the end of a section which leads to the next section. The next section is most often the repetition of the previous section or the entire piece or song,"

    The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Music and Musicians... I have old as well as new sets... has basically the same as Harvards... just much more with way too many references and is also Western Classical Tradition... But the New Groves Dictionary of Jazz... does talk about Turnarounds and leads you to a discussion where Turnarounds and Chord Patterns are discussed harmonically with reference to Form and gets into usage with Western Classical, Pop and Jazz. It's a good read and helps bridge some of the language and terms confusion.

    I generally try and use terms with reference to the subject being discussed. We are somewhat discussing two aspects,

    1) Form of the music... what governs the overall structure of the music, which relates to the period of the music.

    2) Form in the music... the relationships within the music, within a single chords and also between successive chords and the rest of arrangement concepts and principles.

    Getting back to the...Cadence, Channel or Turnaround... the Chord Pattern at end of A section of Green Dolphin St, Cmaj7, B7, Bb7, A7.

    There are obviously many methods to approach... Hmm..This could be a great example to go through and explain how Jazz Concepts work, It's short, simple, most know the tune and can cover many of standard jazz performance practices as well as compositional techniques.

    If you don't mind j-mo, I'll put something together and post my comments/video over at my thread in the Theory section... I do have two doubles today and tomorrow, I'll be a little fried, 7 hours today, 4 hours as trio outdoors... don't know the bassist or drummer... yea I love playing Jazz, lots of jazz...
    Reg

  35. #34

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    Notice two C half notes sound clunky played on 1 and 3 and a lot of players either just hold the C through the first bar and a half or hit the second off beat. In general I am guessing it is a swing thing to hit longer sustained notes either ahead or behind the beat?

  36. #35

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    On Green Dolphin Street-capture-jpg

    This is what I have for the first two bars, swapped the half /whole C's