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  1. #1

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    Hello there.

    In this week study I recorded Satin Doll.

    As always feedback is welcome.



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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Nice arrangement of Satin Doll and played with a lot of energy!

    You might want to add more chords in various spots that use the 6th string as the bass note for a fuller sound and more textural contrast.

    Thanks for posting your video for us!

    Regards,
    Steven Herron
    Learn To Play Chord Melody Guitar

  4. #3

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    Thank you Steven for wathching.
    Almost all the arragements that I'm working on are thinking about to play with a bass later, I'll start a duo with a friend, but I need to start to learn/add those bass notes on it and just don't play them with the bass.

  5. #4

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    feedback is welcome
    Are you sure? Okay then.

    Nice intro, and you've got the altered bit right. But it resolves to a straight major which sounds a bit plain. You could try a 6th.

    What are you playing at the beginning? It sounds as though you're playing EDE DA and F#EF#EB instead of AGA GA and BAB AB.

    You're rushing the bridge a little. You can either watch that... or start slower... or start faster in the first place (that's not recommended) :-)

    Playing extended single-string notes without a backing has to be done carefully too. Some of your notes don't fit the chords (if you play along with it). Players like Joe Pass can get away with it because he makes sure that the chords of the harmony can be heard through what he's doing. It's not the same as having a backing that does that for you so you can afford to depart extensively from the melody. I know it's all a bit tricky but you could think on that.

    If you're playing chords then it mustn't sound as though you're playing a backing for a soloist (but without the soloist!). There should be some kind of melody line (high notes) in there to give it meaning.

    Lastly, your end licks aren't thought out enough. On that very last one you're playing:

    | - C A G F Eb E G E | C B C |

    Too many notes, right? Try:

    | - C A G F Eb E G| C -- strum |

    Or easier, play an open G before the Eb, but very gently so it sounds like a 'ghost note':

    | - C A G F (G) Eb E | C -- strum |

    (And make that last chord a 6th or a 69 (810x91010). More interesting).

    There, I don't mean to tear it apart but it gets it over with and the intention is helpful. But you've certainly got the right idea so keep going and it will absolutely get better
    Last edited by ragman1; 11-02-2018 at 06:43 AM.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Are you sure? Okay then.
    Yes, this is the reason that I started to record a song per week, I want feedback to get better and this is what I expect. I already have incredible friends that says that I play so well. hahahahaha
    Thank you for your time. Great ideas there (but I like to sound a little rocky playing jazz. )
    Last edited by clebergf; 11-01-2018 at 08:20 PM.

  7. #6

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    Nice. One small criticism though: you seem very unsure of your rhythm. I struggle with that a lot when playing up tempo solo. Ballads are more forgiving.

    What works for me is to play it very COLD with a metronome or click track a dozen times. Then turn the metronome off and allow yourself to feel freer and more in the groove. Going back and forth really helps to make sure the swing and feel is intentional.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  8. #7

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    Thanks rlrhett, yeah I'm working on the tempo. I practice with a metronome but not the same day that I'm recording, usually I record one/two takes and it's that for this weekly stuff, but maybe I'll start to play it with a metronome before record it.

  9. #8

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    I think it's a little harsh, ragman. Criticism of timing, technical execution is a fair observation, but 'strumming' is absolutely part of jazz. Some strum more aggressive than others, but 'smooth and sustain' is not part of it. It needs to be as percussive as possible.

    I understand where cleberg is coming from, and I think working on quality of performance is a good advice, but stylistically I wouldn't change much. I'm coming, or going rather, for the same trad jazz/rocknroll kind of vibe myself, and IMO that needs to be encouraged.

    So I say cleberg is on the right path, just need some improvements in precision.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    as percussive as possible.
    I did say put some melody (high notes) into it. Not just chords by themselves. But I've amended my post :-)

    Wes did strumming on this. It's certainly percussive but... smooth at the same time. Maybe smooth isn't the right word.


  11. #10

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    I think it's a very solid start on a classic standard. The opening head and first chorus have a Charlie Christian and Barney Kessel vibe that some like and some might not. I liked some of the ideas in the "note" chorus a lot. I was not as impressed by the chord solo, which has a kind of Carl Kress, Dick McDonough, or Freddie Green feel. Those were great players, of course, but some might find the style a bit old-fashioned. But at the same time, if you have your head in Charlie Christian, Kress and McDonough are not too far away and the styles could cohere. Barney Kessel was definitely the heir of that tradition and did some very percussive chord playing.

    My big suggestion: Play amplified. The effect of the chord playing is vastly different when you play amplified. I'm assuming since you're playing an electric that you intend to play amplified, so you need (in my opinion which is worth what you've paid for it) to practice amplified. You'll find the chord lines have an entirely different feel.

    I think this is a very solid performance, and a good teacher would find tons of stuff here to help build on and extend, and really not much in my view that's "wrong." Time is an issue in places, but it is for most of us amateur players. Something always to be working on.

    I hope you post more and "journal" your progress with us.
    - Lawson
    "Whenever you come near the human race, there's layers and layers of nonsense." - Thornton Wilder, Our Town

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    I think it's a little harsh, ragman. Criticism of timing, technical execution is a fair observation, but 'strumming' is absolutely part of jazz. Some strum more aggressive than others, but 'smooth and sustain' is not part of it. It needs to be as percussive as possible.

    I understand where cleberg is coming from, and I think working on quality of performance is a good advice, but stylistically I wouldn't change much. I'm coming, or going rather, for the same trad jazz/rocknroll kind of vibe myself, and IMO that needs to be encouraged.

    So I say cleberg is on the right path, just need some improvements in precision.
    Yes, that is the point. English is not my first language and maybe I was not clear enough to ragman.

    I want to play that old Jazz swing and trad jazz but I love to do it with that rock energy and vibe I think that they can coexist. I like fusion rock but that's not something that I'm trying to play now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I did say put some melody (high notes) into it. Not just chords by themselves. But I've amended my post :-)


    I got the email from your other post ragman, but man, don't worry I really want to have feedback if not why I would ask for it? And it's fair that you talked about stylistically, because I didn't said what about I wanted feedback, I just said to you that this is the vibe that I'm looking for, maybe there is a balance that I don't how to achieve yet.

    I post the videos here in showcase because it's a weekly stuff that I'm working on it and this looks like a good place to post them.
    Please, feel free to give feedback in others videos ragman, you said great things that I really need to keep attention, like the ending phrase and the melody that was not clear in the beginning.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone View Post
    I think it's a very solid start on a classic standard. The opening head and first chorus have a Charlie Christian and Barney Kessel vibe that some like and some might not. I liked some of the ideas in the "note" chorus a lot. I was not as impressed by the chord solo, which has a kind of Carl Kress, Dick McDonough, or Freddie Green feel. Those were great players, of course, but some might find the style a bit old-fashioned. But at the same time, if you have your head in Charlie Christian, Kress and McDonough are not too far away and the styles could cohere. Barney Kessel was definitely the heir of that tradition and did some very percussive chord playing.

    My big suggestion: Play amplified. The effect of the chord playing is vastly different when you play amplified. I'm assuming since you're playing an electric that you intend to play amplified, so you need (in my opinion which is worth what you've paid for it) to practice amplified. You'll find the chord lines have an entirely different feel.

    I think this is a very solid performance, and a good teacher would find tons of stuff here to help build on and extend, and really not much in my view that's "wrong." Time is an issue in places, but it is for most of us amateur players. Something always to be working on.

    I hope you post more and "journal" your progress with us.
    Thank you for your time and feedback lawson-stone.

    Well, I'm an old-fashioned player (I try to be), at this point I really want to sound close to the guys from the 10's, 20's, 30's and 40's, a mix from those years and you just said the name of the most of the players that inspiring me. I'm really happy to see that some of the things that I played made you remember about them in some way.

    I'm buying an AER Classic 60 and thinking about get a Jr. Barnyard so I'll start to study amplified. I only play acoustic at home, with my band I always play amplified and you're right about that, the sound, feel and dynamics are completely different.

    I'm trying hard to improve my time while I play by myself, it's not easy, but one day I get there. I started to learn this song last week and there is some phrases that I really didn't get it yet.

    I'm doing classes with Frank Vignola online and with a guy here in Brazil too.

  14. #13

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    Cleber -

    As you suggested, I've had a look at your YouTube channel. I like the band stuff! I'll post one after this.

    Leaving aside the banjo, which I think you do pretty well, I can't go through every tune but I think the overall impression I get is that you're not giving yourself enough time to really digest each tune. I'd say you hadn't had time (or you're not giving yourself enough time) to really get the most out of them. Would that be fair?

    In short, they need more work, but I think you said you were trying to do one a week or something. That's quite quick, especially to get them off the page and under the fingers.

    I may be wrong but I think you're basing your solos on chord shapes. Would that be right? And you know your chords, that's plain. When it comes to soloing the lines are quite basic; you could definitely get more out of the shapes than that. There's nothing wrong with using shapes at all (better than noodling around on scales) but I think you need to explore the possibilities more.

    For example, do you use the extended shapes? That is, say, over an A7 you could also use an Em7, that sort of thing. See what you think anyway.

    Here's your band. Very good! Makes you want to dance :-)


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Cleber -

    As you suggested, I've had a look at your YouTube channel. I like the band stuff! I'll post one after this.

    Leaving aside the banjo, which I think you do pretty well, I can't go through every tune but I think the overall impression I get is that you're not giving yourself enough time to really digest each tune. I'd say you hadn't had time (or you're not giving yourself enough time) to really get the most out of them. Would that be fair?

    In short, they need more work, but I think you said you were trying to do one a week or something. That's quite quick, especially to get them off the page and under the fingers.
    First thank you for your time and patience watching the videos, I’m really thankful for that.
    I was thinking about this, that one per week is too much and that I’m not really learning them as I should. I started to play Satin Doll one week before I recorded, so I just played it 3, 4 times a day for a week and recorded it. I always record it without reading.
    I wish to build a repertoire fast, but maybe I need to start to do it twice or once a month so I can get more from the songs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I may be wrong but I think you're basing your solos on chord shapes. Would that be right? And you know your chords, that's plain. When it comes to soloing the lines are quite basic; you could definitely get more out of the shapes than that. There's nothing wrong with using shapes at all (better than noodling around on scales) but I think you need to explore the possibilities more.

    For example, do you use the extended shapes? That is, say, over an A7 you could also use an Em7, that sort of thing. See what you think anyway.
    You’re absolutely right. I think that I play 90% of the time thinking about shapes, even when I use a scale it’ll be inside a shape. Charlie Christian is my main influence while improvising and I had a teacher that was very into this shape thing.
    I don’t use extended shapes, what I try sometimes is to put a different note here and there, chromatism and diminished over dominants.
    I never tried to use an Em7 over an A7. I will start to study it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    Here's your band. Very good! Makes you want to dance :-)
    I'm glad that you enjoyed it. This band is from Tito Martino, he is one of the jazz pioneers here in Brazil and I learn a lot from him.
    I have my own band too, which I founded with some friends 3 years ago, it’s called Fizz Jazz.


  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by clebergf View Post
    I started to play Satin Doll one week before I recorded, so I just played it 3, 4 times a day for a week and recorded it. I always record it without reading.
    I wish to build a repertoire fast, but maybe I need to start to do it twice or once a month so I can get more from the songs.
    I'm not sure this is something that can be rushed. There's a sort of middle way, not too much, not too little. Probably you can perform them once you more or less know them, bearing in mind that the process isn't finished. Some people can absorb very quickly, others take a bit longer, but you generally know when you've sort of 'got it' enough.

    You’re absolutely right. I think that I play 90% of the time thinking about shapes, even when I use a scale it’ll be inside a shape. Charlie Christian is my main influence while improvising and I had a teacher that was very into this shape thing.
    Yes, I was thinking Charlie Christian when I was listening.

    I don’t use extended shapes, what I try sometimes is to put a different note here and there, chromaticism and diminished over dominants.
    I was going to say that too, chromatic notes between chord tones. And if you know how to alter a dominant in the right way and right place that's a very good thing too.

    I never tried to use an Em7 over an A7. I will start to study it.
    Well, you know what a ii-V is, I expect. Playing the ii over the V is always another option.

    Using Em7 over the A7 you have immediately the E and G (5 and 7 of A7) but also D and B (4, or 11, and 9). So if you play the scale off the Em7 you have E F# G A B C# D etc. It positions the notes differently and changes the flavour of the A7 slightly.

    And if you move the Em7 up a minor 3rd to Gm7 you'll get a nice A7b9 sound... G A Bb C D E F.

    Fizz Jazz.
    The band sounds pretty good. By the way, as you're from Brazil, do you do bossa? Of course being from Brazil doesn't mean you do play bossa automatically! It's stereotypical, like assuming everyone from Japan is a karate expert :-)

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I'm not sure this is something that can be rushed. There's a sort of middle way, not too much, not too little. Probably you can perform them once you more or less know them, bearing in mind that the process isn't finished. Some people can absorb very quickly, others take a bit longer, but you generally know when you've sort of 'got it' enough.

    Yes, I was thinking Charlie Christian when I was listening.
    Yeah, I’ll try to find my balance for it. Recording is an incredible learning tool.
    It’s great that you thinking about Charlie listening, I know that is a lot to learn an get better to get closer to his style, but it’s good to know that is something already there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I was going to say that too, chromatic notes between chord tones. And if you know how to alter a dominant in the right way and right place that's a very good thing too.

    Well, you know what a ii-V is, I expect. Playing the ii over the V is always another option.

    Using Em7 over the A7 you have immediately the E and G (5 and 7 of A7) but also D and B (4, or 11, and 9). So if you play the scale off the Em7 you have E F# G A B C# D etc. It positions the notes differently and changes the flavour of the A7 slightly.

    And if you move the Em7 up a minor 3rd to Gm7 you'll get a nice A7b9 sound... G A Bb C D E F.

    Yeah, I know what a ii-V is, and in Satin Doll I used the minor shape for both ii and V, I didn’t realize that until now. Hahahhaha.
    I’m starting to do that diminished stuff and whole-tone scale too, it’s weird to me think in a different chord from the “real chord” on the progression, but I’m working on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    The band sounds pretty good. By the way, as you're from Brazil, do you do bossa? Of course being from Brazil doesn't mean you do play bossa automatically! It's stereotypical, like assuming everyone from Japan is a karate expert :-)
    Thanks for the band. Unfortunately I do not play Bossa yet, I really want to learn it but I need to focus only in one style by now since my day job takes almost all of my time and I'm trying to learn swing jazz and traditional/New Orleans Jazz, they are close but different.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by clebergf View Post
    Yeah, I’ll try to find my balance for it. Recording is an incredible learning tool.
    It’s great that you thinking about Charlie listening, I know that is a lot to learn an get better to get closer to his style, but it’s good to know that is something already there.
    Absolutely, recording what we do is, as you say, a great learning tool. Some of it may be rubbish but then slowly it begins to take shape.

    Of course, Charlie Christian's style is probably out of date now. It's been superseded by much more fluent stuff. The thing is that he did it so well and it suited the music of the time.

    I've found a good example of him using the ii of A7 (Em) and the ii of D7 (Am) and then moving that up a m3 to Cm to get the b9 altered sound before the G. Except in this example he's going down as opposed to up, but it's the same principle!

    Here's the video transcription in Ab. I've only taken the first line:



    So this is the line in Ab:

    Satin Doll - Swing Jazz-untitled1-jpg

    And this is it in G because it's easier to read:

    Satin Doll - Swing Jazz-untitled-jpg
    You can see how he's adapted the Am notes to include the 9th (B).

    Incidentally, he's doing something very interesting over the F7... see if you can work that out.


    I’m starting to do that diminished stuff and whole-tone scale too, it’s weird to me think in a different chord from the “real chord” on the progression, but I’m working on it.
    Yes, it's never just shapes, it's shapes plus scales, arpeggios, licks and tricks, and everything else. And the diminished and whole-tone sounds are vital to give it some colour.

    I know, difficult with a day job too :-)

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Absolutely, recording what we do is, as you say, a great learning tool. Some of it may be rubbish but then slowly it begins to take shape.

    Of course, Charlie Christian's style is probably out of date now. It's been superseded by much more fluent stuff. The thing is that he did it so well and it suited the music of the time.

    I've found a good example of him using the ii of A7 (Em) and the ii of D7 (Am) and then moving that up a m3 to Cm to get the b9 altered sound before the G. Except in this example he's going down as opposed to up, but it's the same principle!

    Here's the video transcription in Ab. I've only taken the first line:

    So this is the line in Ab:

    Satin Doll - Swing Jazz-untitled1-jpg

    And this is it in G because it's easier to read:

    Satin Doll - Swing Jazz-untitled-jpg
    You can see how he's adapted the Am notes to include the 9th (B).

    Incidentally, he's doing something very interesting over the F7... see if you can work that out.

    Yes, it's never just shapes, it's shapes plus scales, arpeggios, licks and tricks, and everything else. And the diminished and whole-tone sounds are vital to give it some colour.

    I know, difficult with a day job too :-)
    Yeah, I know that most people don't care too much about Jazz from that era, there are a lot of new stuffs, the instrument evolved in so many aspects, but this is what I really enjoy and have fun playing.

    I transcribed this CC's solo and sometimes I use that lick when playing In a Mellow Tone or Rose Room but I never stopped to analyze it like this, thank you for the insight.

  20. #19

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    I never do analysis for its own sake but in cases like this it makes it very clear how to play certain things. Which is what we want.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I never do analysis for its own sake but in cases like this it makes it very clear how to play certain things. Which is what we want.
    Yes, I'll start to get more into this.