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  1. #1

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    Hey All!

    This looks like the lowest cost nicest condition JP20 out there right now at $1499 + $65 shipping.
    Might want to take a look see.

    https://www.musicgoround.com/product...uitar-sunburst

    I have no connection to this Merry Go Round but I did buy an Aria Soloette from them. They way underpriced and it was packed incredibly well (pix below). But as we know, past performance is no guarantee of the future right?

    Or you could go to Reverb to the guy in Texas selling one for 10,000$.

    jk

    PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-febb2099-793e-47e1-a28b-2a27f82a26be-jpgPSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-cba26511-60da-4ae2-90b0-cc9198e77a2a-jpg

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  3. #2

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    Long time daily reader of the forum, but haven't had the opportunity to post very often. I contacted the store to inquire about the age and condition and discovered that the instrument did not have the label or serial number on the back of the headstock. Otherwise it sounds like the instrument is in great condition . Was wondering what my fellow forum readers thought about the lack of serial number and signed Label.
    Joe

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe S
    Long time daily reader of the forum, but haven't had the opportunity to post very often. I contacted the store to inquire about the age and condition and discovered that the instrument did not have the label or serial number on the back of the headstock. Otherwise it sounds like the instrument is in great condition . Was wondering what my fellow forum readers thought about the lack of serial number and signed Label.
    Joe
    It's cause for concern. I worked for Ibanez and I worked quality control and repair/rejection on every model from the most basic acoustics up to the signature prestige models. Rule #1, if the identifiers of Hoshino/Ibanez are not clearly marked (Even a blemish or slightly misaligned logo, label or serial number) it's grounds for instant rejection, destruction or if it's a Fugijen, sent back to Japan.
    There's a bit that's not original on this guitar. Tuners changed, colour looks to have more amber tint than what comes as a vintage burst (though photos are notoriously variable).
    So it's far from a stock JP20.
    Maybe it's a very rare prototype. HIGHLY unlikely since those are largely kept on the walls of Hoshino for reference purposes.
    Maybe it's been stripped and refinished, which is likely if the owner wanted to really improve it. Poly off, nitro on is a definite improvement if done well.
    Maybe it's a Chinese knock off. That's my suspicion since I know of several really good shops in China that would do exactly that for me, even put a carved top and back and they WILL copy or graft the Ibanez logo on their work.
    Look at the back. It's a bookmatched figured maple with flame. Ibanez did not do that on their JP20. The veneers on a JP20 tended towards quilted one piece laminate. That's a red flag to me. I've seen a LOT of JP20's and all use a flat cut laminate. This one looks like quarter or slab. Most unusual at the very least.
    The foot of the bridge looks to my eye to be slightly wider than the bridges I'm used to seeing on a Pass, but that's really hard to tell from a photo so I won't say it's so for sure.
    Bottom line, there's more to this story than the description. I'd love to know the full history so I can decide whether this is a dubious look alike or a genuine up classed treasure. Simply no way to tell.
    If this were described as a show guitar, an instrument made for a trade show before the production run, I could be convinced. But the lack of accountability speaks loudly.

    I'd be curious to get a close look at the neck/headstock join, see how it compares with a stock Fugi join. It's covered on the sales photo.
    Stock JP20
    PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-screen-shot-2022-08-10-4-10-46-pm-png
    Item in question for sale
    PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-screen-shot-2022-08-10-4-12-35-pm-png
    PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-screen-shot-2022-08-10-4-20-15-pm-png

    It doesn't really walk like a duck or quack like one.
    WHAT IS IT? I'd love to have it in my hands and really see the workmanship.
    Most curious.

  5. #4

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    Roger Borys told me that, outside of the doofus location they chose for the pickup, Ibanez did an excellent job of copying the plans that JP sent them (without Jimmy's permission) of his D'Aquisto.

    It didn't take long for Jimmy to get it off the market, but it took him much longer to forgive JP.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Roger Borys told me that, outside of the doofus location they chose for the pickup, Ibanez did an excellent job of copying the plans that JP sent them (without Jimmy's permission) of his D'Aquisto.

    It didn't take long for Jimmy to get it off the market, but it took him much longer to forgive JP.
    Yeah, that guitar had an incredibly short run. Joe was a funny guy. I'm sure getting on Jimmy D's shit list stung, but he did get lots of free guitars.
    People complain about the pickup placement on the JP20 but that location was the translation of the location from Jim Hall's old single pickup 175 and that laminate 16" Jimmy made was kind of a 'super 175' for all those 175 users that wanted a top of the line upgrade. Jimmy created the ultimate 175 in my book and Ibanez basically cloned it with a spruce laminate top.
    I have found the sound unpleasing but I didn't blame the pickup position as much as the pickup itself. Throw a PAF or a Duncan Antiquities in there and it's warmth with edge.

  7. #6

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    Thank you all for your insight and expertise. I also noticed the discrepancy with the back and tuners as compared to all other JP's I have seen and the finish looked off as well.
    I'm definitely going to pass on this one. (no pun intended).
    Joe S

  8. #7

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    It seems like this would be an odd instrument to make a look-alike of. A Chibanez? There aren't that many of them, they didn't sell all that well and due to the tone – or perhaps due to Joe's tone with it – they're not all that well regarded. Copying something like this just seems like a really low return on investment. Making a copy of a Gibson ES-175 or an L5, yes; you'd sell enough of those and they sell for enough money to make it worth doing (although nothing like doing fake Les Pauls). Despite that, they are an excellent playing instrument and I have heard some solutions for the tone that are pretty darn good, such as putting a floating pickup in between the existing pickup and the end of the fingerboard.

    As far as the design goes, what I have read was that the guitar was actually designed by Maurice Summerfield with Joe's input, rather than being designed from D'Aquisto's actual plans. How would Joe have gotten those, anyway? It's not like Jimmy would've given him a copy of the drawings with the guitar. Sure, his guitar could have been measured and copied, but Joe's D'Aquisto like Jim Hall's was based on a body not even made by Jimmy, as I understand it anyway, but ones that he bought and put his own necks on. Maybe that's incorrect. The guitar superficially looks like a D'Aquisto, but under the hood it isn't and it had two frets too many which is what caused the pickup placement issue. But Jimmy, having been ripped off badly several times prior to this, was I am sure acutely and very reasonably sensitive on the point. I don't know if the term "branding" was in vogue in those days, but Jimmy certainly understood the idea and the need to defend the "D'Aquistoness" of his instruments. They had an elegance that is still rarely matched by archtop luthiers.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    It seems like this would be an odd instrument to make a look-alike of. A Chibanez? There aren't that many of them, they didn't sell all that well and due to the tone – or perhaps due to Joe's tone with it – they're not all that well regarded. Copying something like this just seems like a really low return on investment. Making a copy of a Gibson ES-175 or an L5, yes; you'd sell enough of those and they sell for enough money to make it worth doing (although nothing like doing fake Les Pauls). Despite that, they are an excellent playing instrument and I have heard some solutions for the tone that are pretty darn good, such as putting a floating pickup in between the existing pickup and the end of the fingerboard.

    As far as the design goes, what I have read was that the guitar was actually designed by Maurice Summerfield with Joe's input, rather than being designed from D'Aquisto's actual plans. How would Joe have gotten those, anyway? It's not like Jimmy would've given him a copy of the drawings with the guitar. Sure, his guitar could have been measured and copied, but Joe's D'Aquisto like Jim Hall's was based on a body not even made by Jimmy, as I understand it anyway, but ones that he bought and put his own necks on. Maybe that's incorrect. The guitar superficially looks like a D'Aquisto, but under the hood it isn't and it had two frets too many which is what caused the pickup placement issue. But Jimmy, having been ripped off badly several times prior to this, was I am sure acutely and very reasonably sensitive on the point. I don't know if the term "branding" was in vogue in those days, but Jimmy certainly understood the idea and the need to defend the "D'Aquistoness" of his instruments. They had an elegance that is still rarely matched by archtop luthiers.
    Just curious what the extra 2 frets have to do w pickup placement unless it has something to do w the bracing getting in the way. There's at least 2 1/2 more frets worth of space between the end of board and the pu. I don't know a lot about the model other than the unfortunate pickup placement and Jimmy's anger, maybe you or someone like JBN can chime in and enlighten me.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Just curious what the extra 2 frets have to do w pickup placement unless it has something to do w the bracing getting in the way. There's at least 2 1/2 more frets worth of space between the end of board and the pu. I don't know a lot about the model other than the unfortunate pickup placement and Jimmy's anger, maybe you or someone like JBN can chime in and enlighten me.
    Most often, designers tend to place the pickup as close to the end of the fretboard as possible. The farther the neck pickup is from the bridge, the warmer the sound tends to be, so a shorter fretboard will allow a pickup to be located farther "down the neck" if the pickup is against the end.
    With the JP20 and some single pickup 175's though, that pickup location was situated clear of the neck and if the fingerboard ends at the 22, 20 or 12th fret, it's not going to effect the string location sampled by the pickup magnets.
    Moving a pickup closer to the bridge in an archtop gives a little more "edge" or treble response. I find this can accentuate an acoustic quality of a pickup if it's one that's well matched for that situation. A good design of a guitar involves matching design, electronics and ultimately a good balance to the player's needs and playing habits. There's no single factour that's going to give you a perfect sound for everybody.
    I hear a lot more talk about pickup and fingerboard relationships when it comes to solid bodies where the pickup's sound finds its location by the location of the length of the fretboard.
    Hope this nebulous and far from complete answer can give you some idea of what's involved.

    It should be pointed out that in a two pickup situation, you can move the neck PU right to the edge of the fretboard, and balance treble with the bridge PU. This blend (selector in middle position) gives a huge amount of range. On a single pickup guitar, the individual location of the pickup is how one achieves a frequency curve. As simple as that. It was the thought behind the D'Armond monkey on a stick PU's that used a long rail to get variable locations: slide the floating pickup to the place that is your sweet spot.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    It seems like this would be an odd instrument to make a look-alike of. A Chibanez? There aren't that many of them, they didn't sell all that well and due to the tone – or perhaps due to Joe's tone with it – they're not all that well regarded. Copying something like this just seems like a really low return on investment. Making a copy of a Gibson ES-175 or an L5, yes; you'd sell enough of those and they sell for enough money to make it worth
    i agree , i think it’s more likely an Ibanez prototype
    interesting guitar ....

  12. #11

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    has anyone seen a JP20 with the pu
    moved to a more conventional place ?
    that would be an awesome axe !

    the necks/fingerboards on those are a dream to play (for me)

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    i agree , i think it’s more likely an Ibanez prototype
    interesting guitar ....
    Big maybe. I can get my shop in China to MAKE me this guitar, with nitro, one off, as you see it there... for about $500. I can get it with a mahogany neck and a different pickup location...still $500.
    That's why I'm not thinking prototype. You don't need to do a "run" of knockoffs to get a knockoff if you work with the Chinese shops. Their work is uncannily good and their prices are really, let's say conducive to a big resale profit.
    I could, if I wanted to, get my own custom JP20 for less than the market price on the used one.
    I build prototypes here, work out the exact specs and they build them for me. For them, it's a gig. I can't afford to build my own guitars for what they charge.
    That's why I put such a big question mark on this example. Because I went through a lot of filtering before I found the shop and luthiers I work with now, and some of them made pretty stuff that didn't sound so good.

    I also know Hoshino, and the chance that there's a prototype out there, for sale from a little shop...well not likely in my mind. Also even in the Bensalem facility, any prototypes had internal Ibanez markings. Just sayin'

    Hoshino knows these guys and that's why they can have a Chinese version of the Pat Metheny that has such close specs to the Japanese ones. If they wanted, they could have China build them one that has lacquer, but it's not cost effective.

  14. #13

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    Really interesting discussion guys - thanks.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    I also know Hoshino, and the chance that there's a prototype out there, for sale from a little shop...well not likely in my mind. Also even in the Bensalem facility, any prototypes had internal Ibanez markings. Just sayin'
    Could it have been a pre-release NAMM demo? Back in the '70s, Harry Rosenbloom used to sell his NAMM demo instruments to musicians he knew (like me) for very little money, presumably to get them seen and heard by potential customers. I got a gorgeous 335-style guitar in about 1976 that had just come back from NAMM for a few hundred dollars. It didn't have a model number as far as I can remember, and it was much fancier than the production ones that were available at the time or came out within a year or two. In retrospect, it seemed like a very high end version of the 2630 that came out in shortly afterward as I recall. It had 5 or 7 ply binding and all the inlays were complex and beautiful blends of abalone and MOP. The gold hardware was gorgeous, and the tailpiece was similar to that on the 2630 but heavily engraved. The finish was a richer, darker SB than that on the production 2630.

    I could be wrong, but I don't think those NAMM demos were prototypes - they seemed more like carefully assembled teasers to arouse interest and generate orders. I don't recall whether or not the few I bought from Harry had stickers and serial numbers, since Harry was the father of Ibanez in the US. There was never a reason to doubt that these were genuine, and they were absolutely wonderful guitars - I never even thought to look inside. I was so happy with Ibanez from the first time I played one that I pre-ordered my AF207 the day I read the announcement in Guitar Player that they were going to be made. I waited about a year for it and I've loved it every day since i got it sometime in the winter of 1997/98. It's been my default jazz box all that time. Once I got it, I was firmly in the 7 string camp for all gigs and sold my last 6 string archtops - a blond X500 and a black 165.

    I too would love to know what this JP is.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    Could it have been a pre-release NAMM demo? Back in the '70s,

    I could be wrong, but I don't think those NAMM demos were prototypes -
    I too would love to know what this JP is.
    It's possible. One of the possibilities I outlined in a previous post, but were that the case, I would think it's got a very marketable provenance and I would suspect it would be known, and honestly, such an instrument would be sold for much more.
    But in a used market with no history revealed, it's anybody's guess and anything is possible.
    I could have been hand built by one of D'Aquisto's students, lost or stolen from them and resurfaced where somebody thought "Gee why don't I have someone put a JP20 marking on the headstock to avoid suspicion?" Outrageous scenario, but still, when history is not there, who really knows what it is.
    Only the eventual buyer can say what it means to them, whether it plays like a dream and lets the owner become a better player or not.
    To the collector or aficinato, without a provenance, it's not a collectable. I'd guess.

    By the way, at the Ibanez US headquarters in Bensalem, they had a genuine prototype hanging on the wall in a big frame. It's their reference for all JP20's from inception to end of run. Beautiful example. But devoid of the discrepancies present in this one, and that one did have an internal label which, from my experience, is the bare minimum for anything bearing the Ibanez head logo.
    In my humble opinion, the bookmatched back is the tell tale. Fujigen (the only factory that made the JP20) didn't do that. ...that I know.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    It's possible. One of the possibilities I outlined in a previous post, but were that the case, I would think it's got a very marketable provenance and I would suspect it would be known
    Maybe - but back in the '70s and '80s, Harry usually had several such instruments in the shop (Medley Music). I'd be a bit surprised if many of them were actually documented - the ones I bought from him had nothing at all in the case except a case key (and a truss rod wrench in one).

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    Maybe - but back in the '70s and '80s, Harry usually had several such instruments in the shop (Medley Music). I'd be a bit surprised if many of them were actually documented - the ones I bought from him had nothing at all in the case except a case key (and a truss rod wrench in one).
    Oh yeah. 70's and 80's were a very different dynamic for Ibanez. They were out there giving away fantastic instruments in their quest to get a foothold in the professional market. A lot of things changed in the 90's. I watched policies on seconds and the diversity of factories change while I worked there. I should have written it all down.
    Yeah old Hoshino was largely Fujigen from late 70s to late 80s. Then was the era of expansion and proliferation. Broader more diverse manufactoring plants, more dealers, fair trade issues, secret deals with Sam Ash...all sorts of things that marked the end of the sweet days of most incredible guitars like the JP20.
    Maybe this came from then. I do wish someone had thought to have shone some light on this curious anomaly. Are those even grovers or Gotohs?

    It can be what ever you want it to be I guess, if you've got the $$ to make it yours.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Most often, designers tend to place the pickup as close to the end of the fretboard as possible. The farther the neck pickup is from the bridge, the warmer the sound tends to be, so a shorter fretboard will allow a pickup to be located farther "down the neck" if the pickup is against the end.
    With the JP20 and some single pickup 175's though, that pickup location was situated clear of the neck and if the fingerboard ends at the 22, 20 or 12th fret, it's not going to effect the string location sampled by the pickup magnets.
    Moving a pickup closer to the bridge in an archtop gives a little more "edge" or treble response. I find this can accentuate an acoustic quality of a pickup if it's one that's well matched for that situation. A good design of a guitar involves matching design, electronics and ultimately a good balance to the player's needs and playing habits. There's no single factour that's going to give you a perfect sound for everybody.
    I hear a lot more talk about pickup and fingerboard relationships when it comes to solid bodies where the pickup's sound finds its location by the location of the length of the fretboard.
    Hope this nebulous and far from complete answer can give you some idea of what's involved.

    It should be pointed out that in a two pickup situation, you can move the neck PU right to the edge of the fretboard, and balance treble with the bridge PU. This blend (selector in middle position) gives a huge amount of range. On a single pickup guitar, the individual location of the pickup is how one achieves a frequency curve. As simple as that. It was the thought behind the D'Armond monkey on a stick PU's that used a long rail to get variable locations: slide the floating pickup to the place that is your sweet spot.
    I still don't understand the thinking of having it so far from the board, I guess that's why Joe's last 175 had it up against it.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    I still don't understand the thinking of having it so far from the board, I guess that's why Joe's last 175 had it up against it.
    It can give you a more cutting sound and in some band situations, it gives you a presence that stands up better against being buried by other midrange instrumentalists (piano, drums, bass).
    It's personal taste.
    PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-screen-shot-2022-08-11-3-11-46-pm-png
    This was Jim's workhorse guitar. In it's evolution, it got a humbucker replacement, a pickguard replacement by Jimmy D', and several modifications by D'Aquisto before he decided to use this as the jumping off point for an entirely new instrument. Note that that pickup is not up against the end of the neck.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    It can give you a more cutting sound and in some band situations, it gives you a presence that stands up better against being buried by other midrange instrumentalists (piano, drums, bass).
    It's personal taste.
    PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-screen-shot-2022-08-11-3-11-46-pm-png
    This was Jim's workhorse guitar. In it's evolution, it got a humbucker replacement, a pickguard replacement by Jimmy D', and several modifications by D'Aquisto before he decided to use this as the jumping off point for an entirely new instrument. Note that that pickup is not up against the end of the neck.
    True, but it's the same distance from the nut (or bridge) as on a Les Paul or 335, both of which's pick-ups are against their (22-fret) necks.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    It seems like this would be an odd instrument to make a look-alike of. A Chibanez? There aren't that many of them, they didn't sell all that well and due to the tone – or perhaps due to Joe's tone with it – they're not all that well regarded. Copying something like this just seems like a really low return on investment. Making a copy of a Gibson ES-175 or an L5, yes; you'd sell enough of those and they sell for enough money to make it worth doing (although nothing like doing fake Les Pauls). Despite that, they are an excellent playing instrument and I have heard some solutions for the tone that are pretty darn good, such as putting a floating pickup in between the existing pickup and the end of the fingerboard.

    As far as the design goes, what I have read was that the guitar was actually designed by Maurice Summerfield with Joe's input, rather than being designed from D'Aquisto's actual plans. How would Joe have gotten those, anyway? It's not like Jimmy would've given him a copy of the drawings with the guitar. Sure, his guitar could have been measured and copied, but Joe's D'Aquisto like Jim Hall's was based on a body not even made by Jimmy, as I understand it anyway, but ones that he bought and put his own necks on. Maybe that's incorrect. The guitar superficially looks like a D'Aquisto, but under the hood it isn't and it had two frets too many which is what caused the pickup placement issue. But Jimmy, having been ripped off badly several times prior to this, was I am sure acutely and very reasonably sensitive on the point. I don't know if the term "branding" was in vogue in those days, but Jimmy certainly understood the idea and the need to defend the "D'Aquistoness" of his instruments. They had an elegance that is still rarely matched by archtop luthiers.

    On the Wiki entry for Summerfield, it says that he "instigated" the JP-20 Ibanez deal with JP's input.
    Nowhere does it mention he designed the guitar, or that he does design guitars.

    JP used to treat it pretty poorly when he used it on gigs, sometimes with output wires hanging outside the guitar, buzzing loudly.
    In any event, if you prefer to take the word of others over a luthier who apprenticed with Jimmy for five years, made the laminate top for Jim Hall's D'Aquisto, and even went into business with Jimmy for a number of years, until Fender's contract forbade them to even talk on the phone, far be it from me to dissuade you otherwise.
    Just remember the words of John D. as he lay in the hospital after a heart attack:
    "Forget him Jimmy, he's just a whore...

  23. #22

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    FWIW, Since we are postulating prototypes and show guitars, i have two NAMM Ibanez guitars, LGB300 and AF200. The LGB is very stock, although nicer wood than ive seen. Must have not been allowed to be played as it came to me in 100% clean ahape. Gonna sell it soon)))
    The AF200 was verified as the first ‘14 model shown. It is believed to be a prototype, but dont have a letter or anything. It has great flame back and sides, and coolist of all a handwritten Ibanez label inside with a serial number of “0001”. That is in addition to a normal Fujigen serial number on the neck for 2013. Was first shown in the 2014 show, makes sense as that was the reintroduction of the AF200. Its shipping box had labels from NAMM LA to PA.
    In checking with Hoshino US there was no one (who answered emails) that could provide any more info than i had from the seller, the reliable and crazy honest Rich Harris at Ibanezrules.com. Jim777 would agree.
    Fun conversation yall!
    jk

  24. #23

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    Walkin' in Japan had one that's remarkably similar!...

    ジョー・パス・シグネイチャーの希少仕様! | WALKiN'


    Also appears to have no label nor serial number. Same book-matched back, non-standard colour and tuners too.

  25. #24

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    I had a JP-20 and used it on gigs for quite awhile. It is a reasonably nice design and probably would have been a better seller if the pickup was under the harmonic (as a 175's neck pickup is). I also think the Guild-Benedetto Artist Award would have been a better seller if it had Benedetto's 25 inch scale rather than Guilds 25 5/8 scale (I had two of those and found the stiff action to be a bother). I sold the JP-20 for what I paid ($1500) and was not sorry to see it go. The ES-175 is a WAY better jazz guitar (I have three of those and use them on most of my gigs). Don't just take my word for it. Hire a medium and ask Joe Pass. I am pretty sure that he would agree with me.

  26. #25

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    I’m sure he would agree, but he might mention that D’Aquisto as well..
    Funny thing, I had a jp-20 also. I loved the guitar but the neck was too shallow for me.
    Joe always fingerpicked that guitar in the much publicized parcel of land in between the end of the fretboard and the beginning of the pickup. It was almost as if he wanted it that way.
    In retrospect, it really didn’t sound anywhere near as good as the benchmark, the legend the 175.
    If jazz guitars ever fall back into favor with Gibson, I hope they start producing his final prototype single pickup 175. Take note where the pickup placement was on that guitar. This guitar sounded spectacular.
    Attached Images Attached Images PSA Ibanez JP 20 Joe Pass decent price-7f46f6ab-5c77-45b6-ba97-cd262c498f79-jpeg