Metronome - 2 and 4 vs 1 and 3

[rodolfoguitarra]

I saw an interview with Jonathan Stout where he mentioned that early jazz is '1 and 3' music.

Starts at minute 29:19

For a long time, I assumed that in jazz, you have to set the metronome on 2 and 4 when practicing. However, after trying to practice Rhythm Changes at 250 bpm, I reconsidered this because it feels so difficult and awkward. Practicing swing at higher tempos with the metronome on 1 and 3 feels much easier and more natural. What do you think?

[pamosmusic]

I saw an interview with John Stout where he says that early jazz is '1 and 3' music.

Starts at minute 29:19

For a long time, I assumed that in jazz, you have to set the metronome on 2 and 4 when practicing. However, after trying to practice Rhythm Changes at 250 bpm, I reconsidered this because it feels so difficult and awkward. Practicing swing at higher tempos with the metronome on 1 and 3 feels much easier and more natural. What do you think?

Oh I’m a convert on this one.

for what it’s worth, I think you should practice both.

but Hal Galper says the same thing in his Forward Motion book. If you want to feel bigger chunks of time you have to use the big beat. So feeling 1 and 3 helps you feel quick tempos at a less frantic pace. 2 and 4 would theoretically be the same, but you body can’t help but feel that 1, so you still feel in four.

I love it but I usually have students do both.

[Christian Miller]

I set my click on the and of 4 the moment, so I don’t have a dog in this fight haha. Foot tapping though, that could get acrimonious.

According to Hal Galper all 4/4 jazz is actually in 2. It’s just modern jazz hides it.

I would also suggest there is value setting the metronome somewhere else once you are used to one way of doing it. Put it where you are not once you are able to synchronise with it.

Barry Harris taught us to pat our foot on 1 and 3. He said the 2 and 4 were about the upper body and the 1 and 3 were about the lower body (“to keep the devil away”). This is also about dancing you shift your weight on 2 and 4. He also said that the worst thing ever to happen to jazz was that it went out of the dance halls because the dancers kept the musicians honest. He and Jonathan would agree about a lot of stuff.

He didn’t practice with a metronome at all, but I would hope that one can tap one’s foot on one and three and have the metronome somewhere else.

In fact I would think it a good thing to practice.

Early Jazz two feel goes BOOM CHICK BOOM CHICK. the chick is the tension.

[pamosmusic]

I set my click on the and of 4 the moment, so I don’t have a dog in this fight haha. Foot tapping though, that could get acrimonious.

Show off. Mine is on 4.

[Christian Miller]

Show off. Mine is on 4.

I have it on the and of 4, pat my foot on one and three. and then play quarter triplets and dotted quarters.

If I don’t pull the and onto the 4… tricky!

If I can do that I alternate quarter triplets and displaced quarter triplets. One of them lines up one of them doesn’t.

Then the ultimate challenge - alternating straight four comping with soloing haha

I do and of 3 too, weirdly it feels easier

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[pauln]

"Pat" your foot sounds like bouncing the toes,
but the most Jazzers I see bounce their heels,
especially the seated guitarists; e.g., Joe Pass.
Don't we have a word to distinctly mean that?

[Tal_175]

Show off. Mine is on 4.

On that note, I set mine to and of 5 sometimes so it clicks on a different beat in every subsequent bar

[Tal_175]

"Pat" your foot sounds like bouncing the toes,
but the most Jazzers I see bounce their heels,

If you bounce your heels, you really have to train your weak leg to be the time keeper.

[Alter]

Lots of famous players count on just the 1 on fast tempos.

[sgcim]

Hal Galper is right.

[AllanAllen]

Lots of famous players count on just the 1 on fast tempos.

That was Dizzy’s move.

[AllanAllen]

I think 2 and 4 helps to feel the swing, once you have the feel 1 & 3 to get the tempo up there.

I only just started getting faster so who knows.

I also like setting it at 40 and playing scales/exercises at 160. Click on the one.

[Hep To The Jive]

I set my click on the and of 4 the moment

Great for practicing tango I imagine?

I can't play swing of any kind with metronome on 1 and 3. So awkward. I don't think Jonathan Stout meant that

However funk 16th rhythms are perfect. I'm practicing Corey Wong exercises like that.

[Christian Miller]

It’s worth learning to play jazz with the click on one and three. I had to do that for a session one time.


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[Hep To The Jive]

It’s worth learning to play jazz with the click on one and three. I had to do that for a session one time.


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I don't see how it's 'worth' it. Maybe a New Orleans type of groove? But swing, nope. I've done sessions with metronome on every beat, that was fine. But if I just practice it home I don't need to make it counter intuitive for no reason.

[Hep To The Jive]

Like Barry Harris, I remember George Benson said in an interview he never practiced with metronome either, because he never had a timing problems lol. Personally, the metronome set me straight many years ago, it was a breaking point that I could play with metronome and it felt natural. I think I sorted some technique issues to be able to do that.

But I have a feeling once you got it you don't have to learn it again. So it doesn't matter how you set the click, it will not make a dramatic changes in your playing. It's still helping me to monitor my speed threshhold though, when I'm working on technique, but not the time feel.

[Christian Miller]

I don't see how it's 'worth' it. Maybe a New Orleans type of groove? But swing, nope. I've done sessions with metronome on every beat, that was fine. But if I just practice it home I don't need to make it counter intuitive for no reason.

They paid me money to do it.


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[emanresu]

Dunno, I like it more to put a bass drum on each beat than using just tick on 2,4.
Seems to be working better. For each their own.

[Hep To The Jive]

They paid me money to do it.


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Totally fine, sometimes I get paid to do much crazier things than that. Musically speaking, of course...

[djg]

It’s worth learning to play jazz with the click on one and three.

yep. the audience might clap along...

[Christian Miller]

Totally fine, sometimes I get paid to do much crazier things than that. Musically speaking, of course...

Well you have to know that in a studio the click is going to be on the beat. So if you want to do well at studio work it’s good to practice recording with an on beat click.


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[Hep To The Jive]

yep. the audience might clap along...

Does audience clap along on a jazz gig though?

[Christian Miller]

yep. the audience might clap along...

Yes, well I understand it’s an occupational hazard in your neck of the woods.

About the years ago I saw Chick and Bobby at the Berlin Philharmoniker.

Wonderful concert and venue.

They started playing some swing tune, and the audience started clapping on 1 and 3.

Deftly, they pulled out the Harry Connick Jr move and added a bar of 5 to get the audience on 2 and 4.

Without missing a beat, the audience moved back to 1 and 3

At this point, Bobby and chick dissolved into giggles and were unable to continue.

That was the end of the gig.

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[djg]

[MarkRhodes]

I saw an interview with Jonathan Stout where he mentioned that early jazz is '1 and 3' music.

Thanks for posting that interview with Jonathan. (I'll have to look for those transcriptions he mentions by Gary Hanson of CC solos.) I view Jonathan as the master of this style and its history. It's a delight to hear him play.