The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Posts 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Last week I recorded a trio set on both my iPhone (for video) and my Zoom H4 (audio).

    I did my best to line the two things up (audio and video) and to "mix" and "master" the audio a bit.

    One big issue I noticed is it's impossible to perfectly line up the audio and video, I'm guessing because the internal clocks of my two devices are not perfectly synced.

    Any tips on capturing live performance with relatively good quality?

    How do you mix a stereo recording from a Zoom H4?

    Here are my results below, any tips on how to improve are appreciated.


  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Cool cut!!

    I've done several videos with separate audio recording. You need to use a video editing program to align and join the two. I use Lightworks, a very serious program with amazing capabilities - the commercial package has been used to make Oscar winners. But they offer a free version for us little people, and it really works great. You can drop a wav file into the sound track, align it and export a video from the merge. It does have some audio editing capability, but I usually do my editing in Audacity first.

    The clocks shouldn't be that far off. I synch a starting point for audio and video recordings when I start, usually by adding a bar or two of a click track and a visual indicator of the beats (e.g. finger snap, pointed finger etc). And I make a visual and audible indicator of a synchronized end point. The onboard sound track is also very useful, so I record audio in the video as well as the separate audio recording. If you put the same click track on both, you can see the spikes in the waveforms when you add the external wav to the video in the editor. Then I run the audio and video tracks together to the end and see how far off the end points are between the audio and video recordings.

    You can measure the exact offset between the same click on the audio track and the video track w/audio in the editing program. And you'll know the exact length of each track from designated click start to designated click stop. If they're not exactly the same, you can use Audacity (or a similar program) to expand or contract the wav file to the same length as the video without changing the pitch. Then replace the original wav in the video with the time-corrected one and you should have perfect alignment. I've never seen a video or audio recording program that was irregular in its timing - it may be fast or slow, but it's always running at a constant speed in my experience.

    There may be a way to stretch or shrink the audio track in Lightworks, but I've never found it. And without a clear marker (like click spikes), you'd be only aligning the two visually anyway. It's much more precise to use the wavfeorms themselves.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    The key is to import the iPhone video / audio file and the H4 audio file into the same video program, then let the program automatically sync the two audio files. All video editing programs will do this for you.

    Then, you simply delete the audio portion of the iPhone file and use the H4 file for the audio.


    The H4 sound is incredible, there's no need to include the iPhone audio file.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Clark
    The key is to import the iPhone video / audio file and the H4 audio file into the same video program, then let the program automatically sync the two audio files. All video editing programs will do this for you.

    Then, you simply delete the audio portion of the iPhone file and use the H4 file for the audio.


    The H4 sound is incredible, there's no need to include the iPhone audio file.
    As far as I understood the OP has used the audio from the H4 only and asks how he could get the sound a little better, is that right?

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    This is exactly why you always have to record both audio and video on whatever device you are using to record the video.

    The audio associated with the video track then acts as your sync guide.

    If your video track lacks audio, you are basically screwed. Trying to sync a pure audio track to a pure video track is close to impossible.

  7. #6
    Yes, I only used the H4 sound. It was pretty good on its own, but I did try to finesse it a bit in GarageBand. I then used iMovie to put it together, and I swear if things were lined up at the beginning, then they looked out of sync at the end, or vice versa.

    I will definitely be looking into Lightworks, and I'm interested what other software folks are using.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    I use Adobe Premiere Pro for all this stuff. There are many good solutions and most are easier than premiere pro.

    Your trio sounds great and with a little bit of experimenting with placement and maybe using the limiter on the H4N you should get great recordings. I have both the
    h4n and the h2n and they are amazing.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    As far as I understood the OP has used the audio from the H4 only and asks how he could get the sound a little better, is that right?
    As oldHaus liked my post I guess my assumption was right.

    The difficulty of working on stereo mixes / recordings is that everything you do affects everything that is in the recording. So the goal has to be to change as little as possible to make some elements a little better without doing to much harm to the whole thing.

    What I hear is: Overall quite good, drums and guitar sound good, guitar maybe a little too loud, bass a little indirect, overall a little boomy

    So the next question is: What have you done so far to process the audio?

    EDIT: All above said is apart from the playing which is really nice BTW.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    The difficulty of working on stereo mixes / recordings is that everything you do affects everything that is in the recording…Overall quite good, drums and guitar sound good, guitar maybe a little too loud, bass a little indirect, overall a little boomy
    I’ve recorded hundreds of gigs with everything from a Sony Pro Walkman and a high speed Crown SX724 to a Raspberry Pi to my current TASCAM DR40x. It didn’t take long to realize that most of the problems with live tracks from clubs etc stem from mic placement. You can’t fix them once they’re in the file.

    I now use an adapter (male tripod screw to female mic stand) to put the recorder on a mic stand, and I’ve moved it around a lot to find the best (or least worst) locations. I’ve also used my tablet holder’s clamp-on adapter to mount it on an existing stand, and I’ve even tried hanging it from a long boom stand. For me, positioning is both the most important and hardest factor to optimize.

    One night I got a late start and forgot to put the adapter in my gig bag. So I sat the recorder on a music stand set all the way down and slightly pointing upwards (a few degrees above horizontal). I don’t know why, but this turned out to be a great location. I wonder if the surface of the stand under the recorder reflected a lot of sound upwards at the mics, which sit on the top of the device. But for whatever unknown reason, it came out great. No, I couldn’t duplicate this - even being a few inches away from optimum seems to matter.
    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 10-04-2022 at 10:01 AM.

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    agreed ,
    the most important thing
    is the mic placement
    use a good pair of closed back
    headphones and wander around with
    the recorder/mic till you find a good
    balance , while the band plays on

    thats not possible if you’re in the
    band of course !

  12. #11
    I tweaked a few general parameters in Garageband, like compression, EQ, reverb, etc. but to be honest I try to feel it out and don't really know what I'm doing. I might put together another track from the set without editing the sound at all and then at least I will be able to judge the raw sound vs. my edits.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    You have a good basic mix of the three instruments, in my view.


    Whether a recording sounds good or not lies 99% in the performance, not in the quality of the capture.


    You might do well to focus on preparing for your next performance rather than trying to rework this recording.


    For what it’s worth, I record all my full rehearsals with the H4N and listen back to them. I've done this so many times now that I know exactly how to set the recorder in terms of placement and level.


    Last week I did a gig for the first time in quite a while and I simply put the H4N on the floor about four feet in front of my all-in-one mono mini-PA (basically the same setup as in my studio), and got an excellent capture.


    It helps that I do not use a guitar amp: vocals, guitar, and other instruments all come out of the PA as a mono signal. My interest lies in what the audience hears in total. That is far more important than what my guitar or any other element sounds like on its own.


    You can also take stereo output from the PA and put it into left and right channels into the H4N, then use the other two channels for a stereo room noise recording. I have done that, too, and it works well, but I'm most interested in simple stereo room noise recording that captures what the audience hears. After all, each of them only has two ears :-)

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by oldHaus
    I tweaked a few general parameters in Garageband, like compression, EQ, reverb, etc. but to be honest I try to feel it out and don't really know what I'm doing. I might put together another track from the set without editing the sound at all and then at least I will be able to judge the raw sound vs. my edits.
    Be careful with reverb on a mix.

    The first thing I would do is to put a not to steep (typical values would be 6 dB/octave or 12 db/octave if you have a choice) low-cut (resp. high-pass — same thing) filter after the recording very low to remove rumble that cannot be reproduced on most systems and only eats up energy in the recording. The lowest note (E1) of a normally tuned bass is ca. 41 Hz so I would not go higher than that in your case. Start with the filter at the lowest available frequency and go up in the smallest available increments. There will be points where you get the feeling that the whole thing opens up. Write down those frequencies and after you have reached 40 Hz dial in those frequencies again, compare and decide which filter position sounds best.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Clark
    You have a good basic mix of the three instruments, in my view.


    Whether a recording sounds good or not lies 99% in the performance, not in the quality of the capture.


    You might do well to focus on preparing for your next performance rather than trying to rework this recording.


    For what it’s worth, I record all my full rehearsals with the H4N and listen back to them. I've done this so many times now that I know exactly how to set the recorder in terms of placement and level.


    Last week I did a gig for the first time in quite a while and I simply put the H4N on the floor about four feet in front of my all-in-one mono mini-PA (basically the same setup as in my studio), and got an excellent capture.


    It helps that I do not use a guitar amp: vocals, guitar, and other instruments all come out of the PA as a mono signal. My interest lies in what the audience hears in total. That is far more important than what my guitar or any other element sounds like on its own.


    You can also take stereo output from the PA and put it into left and right channels into the H4N, then use the other two channels for a stereo room noise recording. I have done that, too, and it works well, but I'm most interested in simple stereo room noise recording that captures what the audience hears. After all, each of them only has two ears :-)
    There is always a big influence of the room / mic positioning. The key word is standing waves.

    Of course a good performance will sound better than a poor performance. But there are also poor recordings of great recordings — think e.g. those wire spool live recordings of early beboppers at 52nd street. Their value is that of being historic documents but not high-fidelity.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    When bringing a separate audio and video recorder to a gig, i choose the best placing for the video camera, taking into consideration the recording angle, but also the chance of possible theft, people stepping over it (if it's a bar!), etc.. Then i place the audio recorder where i think it will get a balanced sound, and as close to the band and away from the audience as possible (in order to avoid room ambience and noise). If possible i might record direct from the mixing console as well, but usually the room sound is better. These zoom mics record pretty well, if it sounds good to your ears it will sound good on the recording.

    As mentioned already, record audio with the video camera as well, as it lets the video editing program auto sync the final video and audio, by comparing the waveforms of the two audio signals.

    -- I think your audio is very good, everything is clear and audible, it is a good representation of a live gig. It could improve by moving the audio recorder somewhere in the middle, to avoid hearing the guitar so upfront and the bass so far (with a lot of room reverb). The video angle could be a lot better, if we could see the whole band. I have a mic stand clip for my camera, so wherever we play i just use a mic stand for it, easy!

    But basically it's the playing that carries that sort of on the spot videos. When, like here, it's good playing, most listeners won't really mind the sound and video imperfections.

  17. #16
    Thanks for a lot of great responses. I will say I love the suggestion to put a low-cut filter on it, that's the kind of technical thing I am specifically looking to learn. Also, I added reverb, and I don't think I should next time.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    I sometimes record gigs by directly hooking up my Zoom H2n to my phone. I connect the Headphone out of the Zoom with my phone, which recognizes it as an external microphone. Wired up like that my phone will use the Zoom as it's audio source, so everything is in sync to begin with.