The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I'm looking for suggestions on a good mic to use for recording/amplifying an acoustic archtop jazz guitar... a 1947 Gibson Super 400, to be specific. I've tried a couple of low to mid range dynamic mics, and wasn't thrilled with the results.

    If anyone has had good luck with a particular microphone that's reasonably priced, I'd be most appreciative of your suggestions. The mic will be run through an analog Allen & Heath mixer with good preamps.

    We're talkin' low budget home studio here, and maybe occassionally micin' the thing at a small venue. I wouldn't be doing this often enough to warrant spending a lot of money on the mic, but I'll spend what it takes to get a decent sound that at least does the guitar a little justice.

    Thanks in advance for any help anyone can offer...

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  3. #2

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    I think Audio-Technica makes a studio pack that has the large diaphragm condenser and the condenser that looks like a little bitty SM57. As you can now tell I know very little about microphones, but a good friend of mine who is a sound engineer swears by the AT stuff. It's pretty reasonably priced stuff, too. Another option is an old company called JTS. Apparently their stuff was a close enough rip-off of Shure that they sued them and put them out of business. I have a 57-style mic that I use for micing my guitar amp and love it. Their stuff ran about half the price of a comparable Shure, but they've been gone for a good 8 years or so, so they might be hard to find. You could always check ebay.

  4. #3

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    You are talking about 2 different applications-recording and live work.
    Here's the thing-a dynamic mic is not (generally) great for recording, unless it's for high spl things like guitar cabs or drums. Why? Slower transient response times, less detail and frequency response. Conversely- a condenser is not great (generally) for live work, because they have a much lesser gain to feedback threshold, for the same reasons.

    Now-for recording-you'd generally be looking for a good small-diapragm (1/2") condenser, rather than a large diaphragm (1"). They have a tighter "bloom"-the area that is picked up- and have a more focussed sound than the large diaphragm type. Inches matter in mic placement.

    Any of the big name manufacturer small diaphragm condensers will be suitable, but don't discount the chinese-made mics out of hand. They are much improved over the last few years. On a budget, I'd recommend a very well-made chinese mic than a bottom of the range name mic.

    So-Specifics? For a good live mic-be looking for something that gives you good feedback rejection-a dynamic mic with a hyper-cardoid polar pattern. AKG D880's, Shure Beta 57's-those sorts of mics.

    For recording- Take a look at the Joe Meeks and studio projects range- especially the Joe Meeks-excellent value for money. Superior mics, but manufactued in China to keep price down.

  5. #4

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    Thanks, guys... for live stuff, I dug out a good Sennheiser mic I usually use for vocals but have mic'd amp cabinets with on occassion. It worked quite well, much better than the lower quality AKG mics I tried a few days ago. Those mics actually work well for vocals, but just sounded a bit muddy with the Gibson.

    A local player suggested I pick up a MXL package deal that's common on the e-commerce music equipment sites as well as brick & mortar stores... the MXL 990 and MXL 991... for about a hundred bucks for the pair. At that price point, I think I can get a feel for using the condenser mics for my archtop, and they'll be useful for a lot of other purposes. If I like the results, I figure I can spring for something better when my budget allows.

    My friend here also suggested I try the small diaphram mic first, then try the large diaphram one to see what it sounds like... room dynamics and my board's preamps may make the less obvious one sound better. Makes sense to me.

    I appreciate your feedback!

  6. #5

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    for an archtop, i think you would have more pleasing results with a large diaphragm condenser. from my experience, small diaphragms typically shine more on a dreadnaught or something kind of boomy. to me, an old L5 doenst qualify as boomy. depends on the parts you are playing with the guitar. solo guitar or rhythm in a group? for solo, i think a mix between a LDC and SDC would be ideal, with a group you could easily just go with a SDC mic'ed 12 or so inches off the 12th fret and have it sit nicely in the mix with the bass and drums. on a budget, cant go wrong with the MXL stuff. but its just like anything, if you got an L5, you can probably afford a nicer mic down the line...

  7. #6

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    these are my shots Gibson Super 400C, 1979 with floating BJB pick up, the Shure SM57 ($99), Fender Vibrolux amplifier and directly into the mixer. seems to me that I had no major problems got me a perfectly normal tone.

    Shrani.si - slike, video posnetki in druge datoteke - gibsonwmv.wmv

    What do you think?
    Last edited by merk; 04-02-2010 at 11:54 AM.

  8. #7

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    I got a nice little stereo condensor mic by Edirol a little while ago (but I'm almost 100% sure the mic itself is made by Audio-Techinca). Works pretty well for recording solo.

    CS-50 Stereo Shotgun Condenser Microphone

    I've got some samples up here with it....any of the tunes that say Solo Guitar after them...

    SoundClick artist: Peter Kossits - page with MP3 music downloads

    If I were to do it again, I'd get a matched pair of little pencil condensers. That would let me mic each f-hole separately.

  9. #8

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    Thanks for input... I'm going to experiment with a few low budget mics, and a couple of better ones borrowed from a friend and see what kind of results I get. A couple of people have suggested trying both a dynamic and a condenser mic together, playing with positioning and seeing what the two tracks sound like together.

    Sounds like I just need to experiment with different approaches until I get a sound I like. A friend of the wife, who has a small pro studio, has offered to let me bring the Super 400 there and we can try some of his high-end stuff, too. He's a bass player, but likes old jazz guitars, too... says he's mic'd up a few in the past and would be glad to help out just to have a look at my old '47. Should be a good learning experience, so I'm going to make plans to do that.

    Beautiful video of a beautiful guitar, merk.
    Beautiful music, Peter.
    Last edited by Jeff Gu; 04-02-2010 at 02:12 PM.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterk1
    If I were to do it again, I'd get a matched pair of little pencil condensers. That would let me mic each f-hole separately.
    Peter, how would that work for the lower "f" hole? That's right where my forearm wants to be -

  11. #10

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    It's not a good way to mic up an archtop-pointing it at the F-holes-same as you wouldn't point a mic at the soundhole of an acoustic flattop. You'll get a lot of boom and loose a lot of your acoustic sound doing that.
    Best results are gotton by pointing the mic where the fretboard meets the body-around the 12th fret. Back the mic off about a foot. Inches can make a great difference, so a little more towards the body or a little more down the fretboard can make a huge difference. Don't get the mic too close to the guitar. Remember-when you are micing acoustic instruments you want to let the sound "grow" and pick up that "grown" sound.

  12. #11

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    It's more about the mic placement than the mic.

  13. #12

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    Interesting stuff - it's not at all intuitive (at least not to me). I've never had any luck with accoustic instruments and microphones, LOL, I'm beginning to understand why.

  14. #13

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    I've never had good results micing an archtop as I would a flat-top. The volume is very low on the archtop with fingerpicking. The only place I get decent volume is close-micing the f-holes. Micing the 12th fret as I would with a flattop gives me pretty much 0 on my arch.

    The bottom f is a little tricky, you have to get it close but out of the way of your picking hand.

  15. #14

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    OK, thanks. Do you use compression in the post-production to sort of even out the amplitude?

    (Attempting to record my own archtops, I find that the relationship between guitar and microphone isn't very constant - if I'm attentive to what I'm playing, I'm not holding the guitar rock-steady.)

    I've tried this a couple of times and gave up because of erratic results.

    PS: your playing reminds me a lot of Van Epps - very nice ! What guitar were you using?
    Last edited by randyc; 04-02-2010 at 06:52 PM. Reason: add PS

  16. #15

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    Thanks for compliment. Wow. I consider myself pretty much a beginner so that's pretty cool to hear.

    No I never use compression when recording solo. I don't want to kill any dynamics when there are no other instruments.

    My guitar was a bit of a special treat to myself for my 40th birthday...

    Hopkins Guitars - Custom Archtops - Penticton, BC

    it's the one all the way at the bottom.

    It's quite loud for a small archtop, which makes it all the more frustrating when my input levels out of the mic aren't strong enough. With strumming, I can place the mic farther away, but for solo fingerstyle I have to mic closely, otherwise I get too much noise when I boost it up in my mixer.

    I'm probably going to try to get a good tube preamp for my mics one of these days to see if that helps.

    You want a mic that has a decent amount of "pull". I have a large diaphragm condensor from Behringer that I use for sax, but if I use it on the guitar I get a way lower level than I do with my Edirol.

  17. #16

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    Very pretty guitar and it sounds very nice! I certainly wouldn't describe what I heard as the work of a beginner. There were some nice transition embellishments where an amateur would have felt obligated to insert bass string lines - you avoided the temptation and the result worked well, IMO, even solo.

    Why would you want a vacuum tube preamplifier? There's no advantage in small-signal conditions and multiple disadvantages (hum, noise). FWIW, transistor preamplifiers are superior in areas like this - where signal levels are low and noise is critical - just an opinion, of course, and not really germane to the discussion

    Keep up the good work, both the playing and the recording - nice stuff !

  18. #17

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    Has anyone tried a ribbon mic? That was what was widely used in the early days of recording. I have an Avantone CR-14 ribbon mic and it sounds great on whatever I've used it on. Not an archtop to be sure, but the sound is really full without a lot of hyped high end like many condenser mics. On fingerpicked flattop it sounds really smooth and, well, rich. Anyone else?

  19. #18

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    Problem with ribbons is that, generally, they require quite a lot of preamp gain to get a decent signal. A lot of the middle to lower end preamps will only give you 40-50 dB of gain, where a ribbon generally needs about 60 to put you in the ballpark for enough gain to capture at a good enough level that leaves you high enough above the noise floor whilst recording. They're not great on quieter instruments like archtops.

    Randy's dead right about being better off with a good transistor pre over a middling valve pre. Very good valve pre's, like some of the Neve's for example, will give you better signal to noise ratios than cheaper ones, but price is very prohibitive. You'd be better off buying a better solid state pre and perhaps a better mic- the cost of the two of those being the same as one good valve preamp. A better mic will give you a bitter signal to noise ratio, and probably give you the sound you wnt with much less messing about afterwards with EQ.

    As for compression-the gent is right-leave that for the mastering stage on solo guitar. Try to use your technique to control the dynamics whilst recording. Jazzers are MUCH better at this than Rock, Folk and Country dudes and dudettes. If there are still some ups and downs, automation on the fader is a better way to control it.

  20. #19

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    Isn't there another problem with ribbons in that if you happen to apply phantom power to them they start to burn up and give off fireworks? My mixer has a switch to turn phantom on/off for all channels - it would be kind of ridiculous to ruin a nice expensive mic, just because you flip that switch while it's plugged in.

    Thanks for the advice on the preamps guys.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by peterk1
    Isn't there another problem with ribbons in that if you happen to apply phantom power to them they start to burn up and give off fireworks? My mixer has a switch to turn phantom on/off for all channels - it would be kind of ridiculous to ruin a nice expensive mic, just because you flip that switch while it's plugged in.

    Thanks for the advice on the preamps guys.
    That would sure ruin MY day !!

  22. #21

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    Yes and no-lots of well-made ribbons can handle phantom, just as most dynamics can. Ask Royer. The problem is if the pins on the XLR are unequal in length, or if you use a TRS plug-they can cause fatal shorts, splattering the mic. If you have the mic plugged in, and are using good cable and connectors, and THEN apply phantom 48V-you should be fine. However-not all ribbon mics are made equal, so check up the user manual for your mic!!

  23. #22

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    OK, so these little FET type of cartridges, the powered ones (aren't they the ones used in the "pencil" microphones?) ... are they as good as specified? NOT for recording purposes but as a SPL indicator - they are advertised to have very flat response.

    I've been making SPL measurements with an SM-57 and then correcting for the rolloff at each end of the spectrum - would be nice to eliminate the correction step.

  24. #23

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    Generally, they are pretty good, Randy. If you are looking for something that works well as an SPL or room measurement mic, take a look at the Behringer Measurement Mic- the ECM8000. Very reasonably priced, a good performer.

  25. #24

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    VERY impressive response - I'll definitely check it out !

  26. #25

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    I was ready to order that Behringer (GREAT price) when I noticed that it requires phantom power. I don't want to have to use my mixer to power the thing because I want nothing between microphone and computer.

    Is there a similar PASSIVE reference level microphone ?

    Thanks,
    Randy