The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Of course, you could always do what my personal guitar hero Bill Nelson does and play, produce and record all of your backing tracks yourself.

    A bit time consuming, not to mention the requirement of proficiency on several instruments, (In Bill's case, drums, keys, marimbas, horns, bass, guitars, etc...),but the effect is mesmerizing and always entertaining!

    It's just another way of getting your music out there when you don't have access to a real band. Which Bill has also done ever since leading Be Bop Deluxe back in the day, whenever he can afford to...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squint
    Of course, you could always do what my personal guitar hero Bill Nelson does and play, produce and record all of your backing tracks yourself.

    A bit time consuming, not to mention the requirement of proficiency on several instruments, (In Bill's case, drums, keys, marimbas, horns, bass, guitars, etc...),but the effect is mesmerizing and always entertaining!

    It's just another way of getting your music out there when you don't have access to a real band. Which Bill has also done ever since leading Be Bop Deluxe back in the day, whenever he can afford to...
    It's a fine line, these days, recording. Most of the records in the charts for the last decade have all been "Pro Tooled" to some extent-timing of drums tightened with Beat Detective, keyboard players MIDI'd in and quantized or Humanized, Guitarists looped, sliced and diced etc. Is it live or is it Memorex.
    My view is that this is something that the producers WANT us Engineers to do-to get that "perfect" take, but with an eye on the clock. They know well what we are able to do.

    But-that's recording. Live work is different. Or was, till the 80's, when a huge number of bands started using sequenced stuff, blending in with their live stuff-the Who comes to mind. Nowadays, I'd venture that "most" of the top performers in the pop and country fields use sequences with their live stuff. The rationale is that people are paying a lot of money to see them and want/deserve to hear exactly what was on the record. Madness, eh? Of course-a lot of the Rock guys don't, but some do. For Jazz , Blues and Big Band? It's unheard of, of course. And it's nothing to do with being snobbish, it's because the Jazz culture is to play live, so they can go where they want to go, musically.
    You can't do that, to a large extent, with sequences. Sure, you can change your solos, but you can't modulate off the cuff, so to speak.

    However-I still believe it's a valid way to go, when money and musicians are tight.

  4. #28

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    Ok, just my two cents, I am probably just a purist, but I don't see Joe Pass using BIAB. Where do we draw the line as musicians? I have to agree with the notion it is glorified karaoke with a guitar. Use to be alot more place to play before that crap became acceptable. You are cutting your own throat. To the argument that someone wouldn't pay enough for a full band, it's because they know they don't have to. Just my opinion based on my observations from 40 years of playing live (with bands and solo).

  5. #29

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    If you're gonna play solo, play solo. Sure, you can augment your sound with a proper rig--look at the way Frisell, for example, uses loops, pedals and various effects. But it's all done live, to enhance his broad tonal palette. I've even thought of bringing other acoustic instruments, like a harmonium and various percussion pieces, playing them live, setting up loops, etc. All done live. But canned BIAB? C'mon, we can do better than this!!

    Do people tend to forget that the guitar is itself a miniature, self-contained orchestra?? What great possibilities in couterpoint we have on our instrument, how we can comp for ourselves, create our own bass lines as we blow, etc.

    However, the best way to avail of these possibilities is to fully develop a right hand without a pick, to really really develop the p-i-m-a thing.

  6. #30

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    couldn't agree more.

    people get so hung up on playing single notes, they forget what the guitar is capable of.

    but i also don't hold anything against folks who gig with backing tracks. the job is to be entertaining, and most people aren't going to care at all.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-10-2010 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #31

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    I don't want to appear contrary but I tend to the "no BIAB" viewpoint. If I went into a bar and heard a musician playing with backing tracks I would be irritated and think "why the smoke and mirrors, why can't (s)he play solo?" But as a guitar player I'm not the average customer I guess - I'm not interested in being entertained.

  8. #32

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    If you're going to play with backing tracks, then at least record your own for some claim of originality. But there is nothing more exciting than when a group of tight jazzers get into a groove and just play the crap out of their improvising little souls! You can't get that with backing tracks, but you can be entertaining like at a wedding, or such. What little I've learned about Jazz is that its improvisational fluidity is an integral part of the whole experience. While I can see both sides of the issue, I have to agree with the purists here that Jazz be kept as "real" as possible. BIAB might come in handy for your cousin's wedding, but it falls flat for that true Jazz experience. Now, for Pop or Country, I would have no problem with it at all. When I played live acoustic pop gigs I would do some numbers with a drum machine and would almost always do some improvisation with a rhythm pattern I had not used before, just to keep it interesting. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Either way, it kept people awake... but that was pop. I dont think most people would like canned Jazz, but if you're in a small town like I'm originally from, I guess you gotta do whatcha gotta do... just try to do it yourself when you can.

  9. #33

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    This discussion is getting way out of control, right now you're putting so many words in my moth I don't know where to begin. Chill out, some of us are trying to have a mature discussion, understanding that others have other opinion then themself....

    Actually, I'll start quoting myself:

    If it's the last shot, no other possibilities, ok, do it.
    Ok. For Gigs that aren't serious, like playing at the lokal bookstore or anything. Where it really isn't space enough. Maby it's OK. Allthoug I'd rather just play a duet with somebody, or just solo.
    From a working 'I have to earn money' perspective, i gess its ok. You'r arguments for using biab box live are all about earning money,and not having anybody to play with. OK,
    Ok use it live, earn you'r money, I see you'r point. But musically, nono.
    I Also got a bit chocked at first and posted stuff like:

    Your acually playing live with biab?????? What????
    From a musical perspective it's like playing football in a weelchair.
    I agree, Karaoke is a good term for playing live with a recording or whatever: Jazzkaraoke.
    Which is my opinion about playing with recorded/programmed matherial.

    I don't post over-sensitive out of topic posts like:

    Those who think "yeah-but it's too restricting, playing to backing" are just not experienced in live work. Yes, it might be, to amateurs.
    My main beef in this thread is with guys who post from their lofty silver thrones and claim that anything that doens't fit their narrowly defined criteria for "what is proper jazz" is to be cast aside without so much as a listen. What arrogance.
    I'll tell you what the point is not: it's not about pleasing the jazz purists with every song.
    If you took this kind of logic to its extreme, one would expect that the same posters would decry the use of amplification for jazz guitars. Or any kind of effects processing, like chorus or reverb or pre-amp devices. Hey, that's not the sound of a REAL LIVE MUSICIAN! That's a Roland pedal doing all that!
    (nobody said anything like that, you're totally missing the point)

    --------

    No, I'm not a very experienced live player, or jazz player at all.I've been playing jazz for like 4 years, and have never charged anybody for a live show (only some compozing stuff, not jazz).

    My point is that playing with real musicians (at an ok or higher level), is much better, becouse of the impulsive / improvisation point of view, and that you're arrangmets isn't limited to a series of presets / records. I think you should have changing soloist (unless you're a singer, then you don't need to).

    I have played with recorded (not live) and real life music, and playing wih other musucians is really a huge lift. What if you suddenly want to turn up the intensity, play really soft during a solo?

    Anybody ever heard about increasing the intensity during a solo?

    And, let me quote myself again, If BIAB is you're last option, do it. I'm not saying that you should go die if you do so, or that you're killing jazz or anything.

    What I AM saying is that there really isn't any musically reason to do this. The music gets wors with BIAB, becous your missing a imporatnt part of the improvizing part of jazz: The rest of the band.

    Remember how jazz was born? A bunch of instrumentalists improvizing together at the same time. New Orleans Jazz.

    -----

    99% of the people who would go hear this particular kind of playing are eating their jazz brunches with their girlfriends and wives, getting faced on Ramos Fizzes...
    Em,what I said was if you play at you're local book store or whatever, I guess it's OK. If you're playing for an audience who are actually listening to the music, I'd be surprised if you didn't get bood of stages.

    Anybody dissagreing that plaing with live musicians is better than playing with BIAB. It's a huuge compromise that just makes the music much worse.

    And jeah, playing with backing track and thinking that nobody cares after 2 hours would be naive.A guess i bunch of people would think (why is he using backing)

    Sorry, I mean this. Live with it. Please, no personal attacs. Lets have a grown up discussion.

  10. #34

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    No wonder people want to play with BiaB Live.If one takes a step back and looks at some of the arrorgance and attitude shown by fellow musicians to other musicians,At least BiaB doesnt get drunk,argue,throw a tantrum when all is not going well with there own playing.Plus it can play in time all day long with out missing a beat.The technology in music arguement can be used in a lot of other aspects of daily living,not just jazz.Some times we are all guilty of not being able to see the wood for the trees.At the end of the day music is enjoyable and if you dont enjoy it dont do it

    Cheers Tom

  11. #35

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    Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.
    You really need to look into Pat Metheny's new project Orchestrion. He is using servos with acoustic instruments. I think less maintenance and set up time with servos vs. rubber belts. However, the Miles popup puppet is a nice touch. YMMV

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Instead of band-in-a-box, I'm learning how to cut my own rubber belts to program tunes to play with a Jack-in-a Box, because it's acoustic. So far I've got ones to play the acompaniment to Impressions and So What. I was thinking of putting a little Miles puppet to jump out of the lid, so I guess it's really a Miles-in-a-box. That's pure entertaining goodness.
    WOW I almost fell out of my seat... that was good entertainment... cosmic gumbo... you have away with words, I appreciate your humor.
    The only point I would add is that we, as jazz performers are the public's educators as to what jazz is. There is very little patronage and there not going to get much from mass media. Doesn't create enough momentary interest which will translate into profit...yada yada. I have posted some of my live playing and will do so again. I don't use extra toys, besides my toy guitar and amp etc... and don't have any problems with those who do. I gig almost every night and try to evangelize jazz to as many as I'm able. I get feed back all the time from audiences... I'm not sure how they would react to myself and a box... anyway if you need a box, use it. Best Reg

  14. #38

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    tried squirrels in a box once, but they just couldn't keep a decent rhythm and they got real quiet and smelly after a few days, but GREAT squealing feedback!... LOL!

  15. #39

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    Hey Guys.

    How many of You use BIAB generated tracks on gigs (i.e. solo gigs)?
    Is this is a case:
    • do you generate tracks beforehand, and then just playback them from let say MP3 player,
    • or maybe You bring laptop with BIAB installed to the gig and connect it to PA?


    Has any of You used midi controller to control BIAB playback in real time?

    With new RealTracks i've just started to think about solo gigs with BIAB tracks, maybe any of You already did/do this?

    Thanks for any comments

  16. #40

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    I tried it once because the gig didn't pay enough for two real musicians, and decided to be a total money slut and just become a DJ. Now I make more money per gig than a jazz quartet.

  17. #41

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    I have used it with pretty good results. When I can't find other musicians (very small town here) to work with, I use my tablet computer and BIAB. The BIAB realtracks with just a bass and drum track will allow a pretty good trio sound. Actually, I prefer to work with live musicians for many other reasons having to do with "feel" and "communications" during a live performance.

    wiz

  18. #42

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    I've been doing it for the last six years. I put the tracks on a mini disc. I work as a single or as a duo with my female vocalist. I run everything through a Bose tower with two woofer cabinets. When the opportunity presents itself I use a real drummer and bass player but the majority of my gigs are dinner parties or restaurants and the pay is low. There are sound clips at this web press page if you want to hear what it sounds like during a performance.

    http://www.gigmasters.com/Jazz-Band/Midnite-Samba/

  19. #43

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    Hello John, I went to your website and was very impressed with what I saw and heard there. I enjoyed listening to your music and you and I have a lot in common in terms of music. You are doing (with BIAB) what my wife (jazz vocalist) and I do occasionally. We do casuals in a very small town in Arizona and often need to perform as a Duo because there are few drummers and bass players nearby. BTW, nice web page and welcome to the forum.

    wiz

  20. #44

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    I differentiate looping on the fly (live) using MIDI or real instruments, ie. experimentation with laptops, effects, et and integrating it with live guitar, but, in general, if you are just going use canned, horrible BIAB tracks, --why doesn't the restaurant owner just play the radio?? I ask this as a serious question.

    Also, we play a polyphonic instrument. There is nothing prettier than a single guitarist who knows how to integrate chords/intervals/bass lines/contrapuntal movement, contrary motion, oblique motion, parallel motion, etc. Without overdubs. Particularly cheesy ones. Now, a guitarist who can do this, that person should stick out like a sore thumb, vis-a-vis a single-note player.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    in general, if you are just going use canned, horrible BIAB tracks, --why doesn't the restaurant owner just play the radio?? I ask this as a serious question.
    Why would you use horrible BIAB tracks?

    Why not use really good BIAB tracks?

  22. #46

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    Also, we play a polyphonic instrument. There is nothing prettier than a single guitarist who knows how to integrate chords/intervals/bass lines/contrapuntal movement, contrary motion, oblique motion, parallel motion, etc. Without overdubs. Particularly cheesy ones. Now, a guitarist who can do this, that person should stick out like a sore thumb, vis-a-vis a single-note player.
    Spoken like a great musician, which you are. The problem is, I find, that the people we play for wouldn't REALLY always know that much about music. All they know is that they either like the sound of something or don't. Sure-some in the crowd will know and appreciate the things you've mentioned, but they are usually musicians and are you really playing to impress other musicians? A lot of them, though, just want to here "All of Me".

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I differentiate looping on the fly (live) using MIDI or real instruments, ie. experimentation with laptops, effects, et and integrating it with live guitar, but, in general, if you are just going use canned, horrible BIAB tracks, --why doesn't the restaurant owner just play the radio?? I ask this as a serious question.
    You obviously are uneducated with the newer BIAB realtracks. They are definately not horrible canned tracks. The realtracks most of us here use are made with live musicians and many of them are famous for their musical abilities. They are Canadian musicians for the most part, Drummer Clark Terry as an example. BIAB now has several thousand different styles and the Realtracks and Realsdrums are awesome and very easy to learn to use. BIAB can be used at any tempo, any key and BIAB doesn't complain, exhibit an attitude or ask for more money when any tune is called for performance. Also, most of us definately prefer to work with live musicians over BIAB tracks for many reasons, lack of available good musicians, poor economic conditions, etc......

    wiz

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739
    You obviously are uneducated with the newer BIAB realtracks. They are definately not horrible canned tracks. The realtracks most of us here use are made with live musicians and many of them are famous for their musical abilities. They are Canadian musicians for the most part, Drummer Clark Terry as an example. BIAB now has several thousand different styles and the Realtracks and Realsdrums are awesome and very easy to learn to use. BIAB can be used at any tempo, any key and BIAB doesn't complain, exhibit an attitude or ask for more money when any tune is called for performance. Also, most of us definately prefer to work with live musicians over BIAB tracks for many reasons, lack of available good musicians, poor economic conditions, etc......

    wiz
    Interesting. Did not know. I have an older version of BIAB (for Mac-which lags very much the Windoze version, from what I remember) that stopped working when I upgraded to OSX Lion 10.7 because OSX no longer supports universal binary/Rosetta- era (switching from IBM PowerPC chips to Intex x86 era) programs. The backing chords on my version sound horrible!

    I didn't mind that OSX Lion killed my old version of BIAB, as I only used it as a practice tool, and I've found that I could replace that basic functionality on an iPad with iRealBook.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by billkath
    Spoken like a great musician, which you are. The problem is, I find, that the people we play for wouldn't REALLY always know that much about music. All they know is that they either like the sound of something or don't. Sure-some in the crowd will know and appreciate the things you've mentioned, but they are usually musicians and are you really playing to impress other musicians? A lot of them, though, just want to here "All of Me".
    Billy, thanks for the compliment, I'm just a student, but I'm starting to think about playing out.

    My idea of playing out involves solo guitar, though. I firmly believe that a well played solo guitar that utilizes polyphony and contrapuntal possibilities of the instrument will sound much nicer, prettier and melodious and lyrical than, say, a solo piano player. And thus be more captivating--in part because the guitar can, unlike a piano, truly emulate the richness of the human voice.--at least more so than the piano. Maybe people could be more captivated, due to the fact we DON"T EXPECT our guitarists to have such a command of the instrument that they can play such harmonically rich, intersecting lines. I think many audience members expect fast single note runs.

    For me, that gets old, real fast. And is not as expressive, musically, as someone who has a real command of the contrapuntal aspects of the instrument. That's my goal. As George van Eps said, it's a "lap piano". Cheers!

    (you also have to really know how to play finger style--a plectrum alone won't work, really).

  26. #50

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    hello again NSJ,

    I just bought an IPAD 1 to make things a little easier for the casual gigs I usually get. The good new is I no longer carry music with me because it is all on my IPAD and easy and quick to get to. Unfortunately I still have a lot to learn in terms of what the ipad is capable of but I am spending some time every on the IPAD to learn how to make good use of it.

    wiz