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I have literally no idea of what any of that meant. What is a VST? What is this KONTAKT of which you speak? Bah, humbug, get of my lawn young whippersnapper.
If I'd wanted to be a computer programmer I'd have kept up with my FORTRAN.
Stuff and nonsense!
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11-04-2018 05:08 PM
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ha hah VST and KONTAKT names to instill fear here..im not even gonna try and explain..took me a while figure it out ..when it works its magic . whole new ball game of SOUNDS ...jimmy turned bass off drums and comping with just piano....sounds like the soundcard sounds..not real tracks ..dodnt think JIMMy messes with VST or Kontakt
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I’ll still defer to you for advice on how to play better.
Originally Posted by christianm77
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with VST and KONTAKT im having a crack at Classical Organ... can read pretty good..another uphill struggle..hooked up a Cheap Casio keyboard with midi and USB ....kontakt organ SAMPLES...have an authentic sounding Italian baroque organ...all sampled from the real instrument ....JS BACH smiles smiles back at him
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Will they run on this? Originally Posted by voxss
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Desperate to catch that phone pest...stirling job...5 bob an hour
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He's a wily little bastard
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After many decades of playing, I think I advanced faster by using IRealPro than from the sorts of things I'd been doing before.
My approach was to pick a tune and set it for a key change every chorus by a fourth or fifth. 13 repeats.
I'd then play the melody, solo, and comp.
Good for:
learning tunes
ear training
getting comfortable in 12 keys
getting chord changes to be automatic by sound in 12 keys.
finding weaknesses in my knowledge e.g. key/position/chord/scale things I didn't know. I found, for example, that there were chords I could play over, except in a certain region of the fingerboard, because, somehow, I'd glossed over it for 50 years.
Questionably good for:
time feel.
In fact, it is good for making sure, for example, that your lines are in good mechanical time. You still have to work on getting everything to swing hard, but at least you can work on not dragging or rushing.
Last point. This was helpful to me. Apparently, Wes didn't need it.
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did they ever catch that phone pest...Fled before Scotland Yard could get to the call box..was in fact edgar lustgarten..
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who says you shouldn't use it? It's a good practice tool. It doesn't sound or feel like playing with great players but it sounds and feels like playing with slightly better than average players. To answer the question of why it doesn't feel like real musicians compared to jamey abersold - the answer is that you are not playing along with a recording of musicians. You are playing along with micro-fragments of beats, measures and choruses strung-together algorithmically by software. You are at the mercy of the particular recordings, the accuracy of the players and their subdivisions, note choices of bassists, comping choices of pianists, etc.
I find the guitar impossible to use so I turn it off. I try to use it with piano or organ, bass and drums, turning off the piano whenever possible.
It's horrible at modern chord types. It doesn't understand polychords or slash chords or modern (circa late '70s) chords like Maj7#5, Maj7#9#11, etc.
But what it does, it's good at and - like a metronome - is invaluable as a learning and practicing aid.
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I mostly agree with everything Jack wrote here, but both Band in a Box and a metronome, while good tools, should not be relied on as the jazz gospel. In real life jazz, time can be fluid. When the music nears a climax, it can speed up, when it is time for a landing it can slow down. A good jazz player can adjust to the needs of the ensemble. A metronome and Band in a Box can cause a user to become too rigid. Use these tools to get your time consistent, but also develop flexibility by playing with actual humans of as much skill as you can. Originally Posted by jzucker
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i don't think a software tool or metronome or biab can cause a player to become more rigid. I think that's the responsibility of the player. It's obvious that to be a jazz player you need to play with other people. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I've personally played with tons of players who never play with a metronome and who claim that biab makes them more mechanical and who have no time whatsoever so i don't think you can make a panacea argument here.
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It's really never the tools fault, is it?
People still blame the Real Book for bad players...
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No one that I know has ever told me not to use it but there are complaints about it. For myself I do not have ready access to a rhythmn section and I use it to simply try and play through tunes. Some complain that it gets mechanical and real humans tend to move up and down with the tempo at times. Well for myself it is far better to be a perfect with my time that to rely entirely on my own sense of time. If I get in a situation that the real players are moving the time hopefully I can respond.
For practicing I find it very good and it certainly help at least my own playing. I am mere mortal playing the guitar so it works for me. I would guess if you are a killer player and play many gigs it probably is less than helpful for those blessed. When you really think of it the best practice for the guitar is to play real gigs and then go home and work on what you screwed up on or hone the tunes and skills based on the playing situation. I think Herb Ellis describe this when he first went with Oscar Peterson.
The great Johnny Smith said practicing was practicing and playing in playing...………..I think I get what he said. In the mean time BIAB is fine for me to use.
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A Tool that's just an update for a metronome.
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I have been carefully reading the responses, especially from those how have been around and accordingly, have a wider perspective. They have been helpful. Originally Posted by jads57
But jads57, your comment caught my eye. Please tell me you are joking.
A metronome does not have a choice of chords, and various drum patterns. I have found that choosing different real drums influences me in different ways. Some choices have more fills, which makes me respond with an nice little flourish in my solo.
And as I find myself writing songs (pitiful though they may be to some
), depending on the choices I make for the backing tracking, I find that I comp differently to complement the rhythm.
Yes it is more than an updated metronome, IMHO. And now that I am aware of a few caveats, I am making sure that I don't fall into any of the traps that have been mentioned.
Peace be with you, amigo.
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I just can't be nuanced here, so here it goes: what a preposterous and ignorant statement... *sigh* Originally Posted by jads57
Have you ever even been in the same room with a musical instrument, let alone play one?
You kids get off my lawn!!!
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I kinda of skipped that part. Went from the metronome and CD jamming to playing alone and then just looping myself. It always felt kind of artificial to me. Great tool though, I love ireal for the practicality, transposing, etc. Still think jamming with CDs is a better habit.
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Very interensting how things change...Great improvisors did not tend to think of laying stuff over a piano - to my ears - they sound like they are absolutely creating a harmonic structure in their lines that relates in some interesting way to the original progression.
The other thing always sounds a bit noodly and weak.
The way Warne Marsh put it 'some pianists actually think I need them to comp for me.' A good improviser doesn't need comping. Comping adds an extra dimension (at least when done well.)
lately I thought about it too... and it is curious that I mostly cane to it because most of the time I was engaged much more in early music improvization (not just mimicking 'the sound' but true improvization)... I mean improvizing the form not variating given melody (which also happens)..
The thing is I always saud that jazzers improvized within (I think 'within' is better wird than 'over') predetermined given from - which is formally true... where as in classical I had to improvize the whole piece within limitation of style...
When I occasionally came back to jazz playing I found that I began to think in the same way even when I had given standard... in a way you begin to recompose it as if it was not composed before and you do not relly think of the changes given but rather move them on, create them through playing because they do not exist anywhere except your mind if you not play them - so you have to express them in real playing...
I think harmonic hearing - hearing harmony as massive sound: a chord, a function and realtions - really helps here on overall level, it really helps to keep the form and integrity.
And voice-leading, motivic things etc. are important for going from one thing to another right now.
(actually just the same as in baroque music: the form is all about harmonic masses and functional relations, the realization is basically 2 voices just constantly moving the most appropriate way - only combining both is a real piece of music)
And the next thought that stroke me that we (ok me!) are often overloaded with classical or theoretical background - maybe not always formal and solid - but still with some learning background (even this forume offers some teaching/learning patterns) - and we (ok me again!) forget that those guys in the early days did all the job by ear... and if you a solo player who truely trust your ear (and they did not have anything else to try) you actually will realize the whole piece in your solo no matter if there is an accompanist or not...
Strange but this classical experience actually released me a lot in soloing... I do not want to say that strictly but in a way you kind of ignore comping)))
As per BIAB - I did not have experience. But as many I was quite fascinated when I got a whole bunch of backing tracke (and later iReal stuff) but I never really used it... I do not know why but I had some kind of unpleasant feeling from it like these 'a..holes do not listen to me!" besides they always seem behind like it's boring for them to comp for me and they already think about something else...
... using looper was a bit more effective but again I did not really dig into it too. I think it waorks when you are totally accomplished on your own already.
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i spent a couple years with BB ..kinda late starter so obsessively played through all the Master jazz solos built in it,,got to love them as they fitted beautifully with jazz standards..and i beleive Oliver Gannon was the composer of them fine canadian player brother of the other Gannon who created Band in a BOX..i got good enough to sit in with a band and play 4 choruses on most of the standards...no other route to do that for me...branched out to WES in a box...ive now turned to Baroque organ as another challenge...just love the baroque guys....heres the list i followed on my journey.. good luck with yours...more advice get Real tracks...MASTER JAZZ SOLOSGS theres actually 220 solos 001 Manha De Carnaval/Day In The Life Of A Fool EasierGS002 East Of The Sun Easier
GS003 I Didn't Know What Time It Was Easier
GS004 Rosetta Easier
GS005 Pennies From Heaven Easier
GS006 Sunny Side Of The Street Easier
GS007 Nice Work If You Can Get It Easier
GS008 In A Mellow Tone Easier
GS009 Man I Love Easier
GS010 A Foggy Day variation w/bridge ??? Easier
GS011 Lady Be Good Easier
GS012 Girl From Ipanema Easier
GS013 It Could Happen To You Easier
GS014 How High The Moon Easier
GS015 You'd Be So Nice Easier
GS016 I Love You Easier
GS017 Ain't Misbehavin' Easier
GS018 Alone Together Easier
GS019 Wave Easier
GS020 Someday My Prince Will Come Easier
GS021 Satin Doll Easier
GS022 Sweet Georgia Brown Easier
GS023 Bb Blues w/variation Easier
GS024 Corcovado Easier
GS025 Autumn Leaves Easier
GS026 Stella By Starlight Easier
GS027 Honeysuckle Rose/Scrapple Easier
GS028 Rhythm Changes Easier
GS029 Green Dolphin Street Easier
GS030 "Take The ""A"" Train" Easier
GS031 My Funny Valentine Intermediate
GS032 When Your Lover Has Gone Intermediate
GS033 It's Only A Paper Moon Intermediate
GS034 Our Love Is Here To Stay Intermediate
GS035 A Foggy Day Intermediate
GS036 This Will Be My Shining Hour
GS037 My Romance Intermediate
GS038 Have You Met Miss Jones Intermediate
GS039 Advanced
GS040 Like Someone In Love Advanced
GS041 Just Friends Intermediate
GS042 Shadow Of Your Smile Advanced
GS043 It's You Or No One Advanced
GS044 Blue Skies Advanced
GS045 I Concentrate On You Advanced
GS046 All The Things You Are Advanced
GS047 Rhythm Changes Advanced
GS048 I Remember You Intermediate
GS049 There Will Never Be Another You Intermediate
GS050 How About You Intermediate
GS051 My Funny Valentine Easy
GS052 When Your Lover Has Gone Easy
GS053 Confirmation Easy
GS054 Once I Loved Easy
GS055 I'm In The Mood For Love Easy
GS056 Old Devil Moon Easy
GS057 Lazy Bird Easy
GS058 Georgia Easy
GS059 KTOBCTOI also 119 Easy
GS060 I Thought About You Easy
GS061 Where Or When Easy
GS062 It Don't Mean A Thing… Easy
GS063 Moonglow Easy
GS064 Fly Me To The Moon Easy
GS065 Don't Get Around Much Anymore Easy
GS066 All Blues Easy
GS067 Hello Dolly Easy
GS068 Blue Skies Easy
GS069 Bluesette Easy
GS070 A Night In Tunisia Easy
GS071 Darn That Dream Easy
GS072 Deed I do???? Easy
GS073 All The Things You Are Easy
GS074 Perdido Easy
GS075 On A Clear Day Easy
GS076 Triste Easy Bossa
GS077 Love Walked In Easy Swing
GS078 Yesterdays Easy
GS079 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Easy
GS080 Just In Time Easy
GS081 That's All Intermediate
GS082 Airegin Intermediate
GS083 All Of You Intermediate
GS084 Am I Blue Intermediate
GS085 Blue Moon Intermediate
GS086 There Will Never Be Another You Intermediate
GS087 There Is No Greater Love Intermediate
GS088 Jeannine Intermediate
GS089 Jordu Intermediate
GS090 Intermediate
GS091 If I Should Lose You Intermediate
GS092 Speak Low Intermediate
GS093 Algo Bueno Intermediate
GS094 Blue Bossa Intermediate
GS095 Easy Living Intermediate
GS096 Bye Bye Blackbird Intermediate
GS097 Four Intermediate
GS098 Joy Spring Intermediate
GS099 Laura Intermediate
GS100 Colors of Chloe???? Intermediate
GS101 Falling In Love With Love Intermediate
GS102 I Should Care Intermediate
GS103 In Your Own Sweet Way Intermediate
GS104 Alice In Wonderland Intermediate
GS105 Just Friends Intermediate
GS106 Up A Lazy River Intermediate
GS107 Cherokee Intermediate
GS108 Dolphin Dance Intermediate
GS109 Doxy Intermediate
GS110 Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me Intermediate
GS111 My Funny Valentine Chord Solo
GS112 When Your Lover Has Gone Chord Solo
GS113 Confirmation Chord Solo
GS114 Once I Loved Chord Solo
GS115 I'm In The Mood For Love Chord Solo
GS116 Old Devil Moon Chord Solo
GS117 Lazy Bird Chord Solo
GS118 Georgia Chord Solo
GS119 Same as 59 Chord Solo
GS120 I Thought About You Chord Solo
GS121 Where Or When Chord Solo
GS122 It Don't Mean A Thing… Chord Solo
GS123 Moonglow Chord Solo
GS124 Fly Me To The Moon Chord Solo
GS125 Don't Get Around Much Anymore Chord Solo
GS126 All Blues Chord Solo
GS127 Hello Dolly Chord Solo
GS128 Blue Skies Chord Solo
GS129 Bluesette Chord Solo
GS130 A Night In Tunisia Chord Solo
GS131 Darn That Dream Chord Solo
GS132 Deed I do Chord Solo
GS133 All The Things You Are Chord Solo
GS134 Perdido Chord Solo
GS135 On A Clear Day Chord Solo
GS136 Triste Chord Solo
GS137 Love Walked In Chord Solo
GS138 Yesterdays Chord Solo
GS139 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Chord Solo
GS140 Just In Time Chord Solo
GS141 Satin Doll Advanced
GS142 Night And Day Advanced
GS143 Lullaby Of Birdland Advanced
GS144 Girl From Ipanema Advanced
GS145 Advanced
GS146 I Hear A Rhapsody Advanced
GS147 How Long Has This Been Going On Advanced
GS148 Wave Advanced
GS149 It Had To Be You Advanced
GS150 On The Street Where You Live Advanced
GS151 Falling In Love With Love ????? Advanced
GS152 Easy To Love Advanced
GS153 Deed I Do Advanced
GS154 Days Of Wine And Roses Advanced
GS155 Come Rain Or Shine Advanced
GS156 Bb Blues Advanced
GS157 Am I Blue Advanced
GS158 I'll Remember April Advanced
GS159 All Of Me Advanced
GS160 After You're Gone Advanced
GS161 Yesterdays Advanced
GS162 Autumn Leaves Advanced
GS163 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Advanced
GS164 Tenderly Advanced
GS165 Tangerine Advanced
GS166 Summertime Advanced
GS167 Stella By Starlight Advanced
GS168 The Song Is You Advanced
GS169 Just In Time Advanced
GS170 On A Clear Day Advanced
GS171 I'm In The Mood For Love Comping
GS172 My Funny Valentine Comping
GS173 When Your Lover Has Gone Comping
GS174 Once I Loved Comping
GS175 My Funny Valentine Comping
GS176 When Your Lover Has Gone Comping
GS177 My Funny Valentine Comping
GS178 My Funny Valentine Comping
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Might also be worth pointing out that jazz has become progressively harder to play by ear alone, which is not to say impossible. Originally Posted by Jonah
Standards and old school tunes you might have to map a couple of modulations in the bridge, but by and large play melodically and you are fine.
Bop was the first step down the road towards a more theoretical music based on chords (some earlier improvisers had been interested in this of course but it wasn’t the only way)
Modal may have been an attempt to recover that melodic approach. It’s how I tend to hear Miles.
But that got swept up in more complex things again.
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if there was an easier way to get to solo id have taken it...scales arpeggios...no time for that .i got stuck in and gave it some welly... my first rehearsal band i blew all the saxes away with soloing...god bless Oliver Gannon...my secret Weapon..BB... not interested in comping..dont think grant green was either...
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i think once you crack the BB solos your ready for the transcription world...id recommend Wolf Marshall transcriptions..
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Looks like BIAB stuff makes people a bit nervous...
this could be a reason to avoid it...
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It seems like a useful practice tool to me. It's surely not a substitute for playing with people.
It's surprisingly hard to find people who can play jazz credibly. You can find tons of rock guys, but a decent jazz drummer? Bass player? Even where I live suburban Washington DC, there aren't many guys who are very good.
I'm a decent jazz bass player. Gig all the time on bass, or did anyway, til I got old enough to where the fun/work ration skewed to Farr towards work. I'm sort of an ok jazz guitar player. If I want to put together a band to play guitar with, I've got to find a bass player. I'm not likely, and this is not bragging, it's just fact, to find a bass player as good or better than me. It's not that I'm great, I'm not; there just aren't that many around, and if they're around, they aren't available. All the usual difficulties of organizing a band--availability, temperament, skill level, commitment--are compounded when you have a smaller core of potential players. I don't want to come off as a snob, but playing with a bad drummer just sucks all the joy away.
So if I want to practice tunes at high tempos, BIAB is a useful practice tool. Do I wish good jazz players were easy to find? Hell yes
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