Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?

[rpjazzguitar]

I had an older version of BIAB that I used a lot.

But, I stopped using BIAB whenI got IRealPro.

IRealPro gave me what I wanted -- easy interface which could change tempo and key every chorus.

Good enough quality backing track.

Ten bucks.

Required my phone, not a laptop.

Lots of tunes in the library. Just about every tune I've ever thought to try.

Works on gigs to quickly get the changes to a tune I don't know -- in any key.

The main advantage I found with BIAB is that it was easier to quickly program in a chord progression that I wanted to loop.

At the risk of belaboring the point -- that was maybe a 2003 version of BIAB, not the current one.

[christianm77]

Yeah, basically it sucks.

[ragman1]

I have to say some of the best versions in the Practical Standards threads have used backing tracks of whatever variety, BIAB or iReal Pro. I'm thinking M-ster and fuzzthebee (as was) and others. They were great, bass n drums, other funky stuff. Weally gwoovy!

[christianm77]

Yeah for me there’s a difference between using tracks to present ones playing in the context of band (we don’t all want to playing solo all the time, that’s fair) but I think the objections are more from the perspective of using backing tracks as a crutch during practice.

There are ways of using tracks intelligently when practicing imo but just playing solos with a track is not itself really high level practice. For a beginner student, sure.

[ragman1]

using backing tracks as a crutch during practice.

I never thought of that. How do you do that? If there's no band in sight, why is it a crutch? It's just a way of playing with a band sound. Why do you say a crutch?

just playing solos with a track is not itself really high level practice. For a beginner student, sure.

When you say solos do you mean single-note stuff (as opposed to CM, presumably)? I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Are you saying just play without any backing at all? I wouldn't do that, it might sound all wrong if the harmonies were put in.

I mean, you'd look pretty silly if you'd been practising in your own bubble and then turn up to a band session and play a lot of clashing stuff - 'Oh, sorry, it honestly sounded great when you weren't there'!

So what would you call high-level practice? And how far away from 'beginner level' would one have to be?

[mr. beaumont]

The problem with tracks, or overusing them, really (again, I see no problems with a balanced approach) is only that unless you're recording yourself often and listening back critically, you could get a bit lazy in addressing the changes in your solo...you might meander, because the harmony is there for your ears...

Might be interesting to record yourself playing to a track, then remove the track and listen to your solo, see if you can still hear the changes...

[christianm77]

Cos students should develop the ability to establish the harmony and time feel on their own. You can end up being a bit of floater, if you’ll forgive the image. At least a portion of one’s practice should be basically learning to do this on your own imo.

Its true it can be helpful to play with a full band sound for developing feel - playing with records imo is a better shout because those actually swing.

I do quite like drum genius because the drum loops actually swing.

[christianm77]

When you say solos do you mean single-note stuff (as opposed to CM, presumably)? I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Are you saying just play without any backing at all? I wouldn't do that, it might sound all wrong if the harmonies were put in.

However you find it best to make music on your own. I’m talking here about a solo performance of music with just a guitar. There’s loads of different ways to do that.

I mean, you'd look pretty silly if you'd been practising in your own bubble and then turn up to a band session and play a lot of clashing stuff - 'Oh, sorry, it honestly sounded great when you weren't there'!

Well that’s why you’d do lots of listening, ear training and ‘transcription’ innit?

Also kind of think this it something you can only work on by doing it.

So what would you call high-level practice? And how far away from 'beginner level' would one have to be?

Over the initial hill of being able to play a solo on a song at all....

[ragman1]

Well, maybe it's just my own preference but I can't see very much coming out of playing a solo without some sort of chordal backing.

I don't separate them. I see it as a sort of complementary dance between the two. Quite often the rhythm and/or the voicing of the backing will dictate the sort of solo that emerges. Change the backing, which often means changing the mood, and you get a different solo.

At least, I'd say that's what definitely should happen. I can't see the point in a repetition of the same notes regardless of what's happening behind them!

[christianm77]

but don't you make your own backings? Or am I mistaken?

[ragman1]

I do. I prefer them because I intuitively tune into them (same mind/brain) and also because my acoustic sound doesn't always sound very good over one of those recorded backings.

[LtKojak]

no, it isn't real musicians playing.

If the parts are actually played by real musicians of very high caliber in many cases, how is it not so for you? It makes no sense.

It's samples of real musicians cobbled together in a crude simulation of real musicians playing.

That's EXACTLY what multi-track recording is. What exactly do you mean with "crude simulation"? BIAB is a managing system of playing samples of pre-recorded music following the rules of tempo, music Theory of harmony with the added part of what's defined as a musical "style", using a chord progression and music style paradigm as UI to obtain the desired backing track to play over. Not fully-comprehending one or several of how their features inevitably leads to less-than-desirable outcomes... specially to some people that bought the program thinking to use it in a way it was NOT designed to function. Like the task of creating note-by-note copies of songs played in the radio, fx. So, the program doesn't deliver the expected outcome so it gets blamed, when it's simply the user's lack of understanding of the program itself.

Sometimes it is the hammer. Especially if the hammer is a styrofoam simulation of a hammer.

Even so, it all comes to "how you use it".

[whitebeard]

well, no, that's not what multitrack recording is, "exactly" or otherwise. Maybe you meant overdubbing, but again, no.

You love BIAB, fine, nobody objects to that. Anyone object to that? Hands? Nobody? OK!

well gotta run...it's Tropical Hotdog Night!

[fep]

I took this first video of my song, me playing a duo - two guitars. Then I did it with BIAB playing drums, bass, piano and me playing guitar (2nd video). Seems like a pretty good tool to me. Stryofoam simulation of a hammer? At least I don't think so.

[christianm77]

Yeah, I think the thing I dislike about it conceptually is it can encourage people to respond to harmony as opposed to define it.

So you think, here is C maj7, I shall play C maj7 stuff.

Great improvisors did not tend to think of laying stuff over a piano - to my ears - they sound like they are absolutely creating a harmonic structure in their lines that relates in some interesting way to the original progression.

The other thing always sounds a bit noodly and weak.

The way Warne Marsh put it 'some pianists actually think I need them to comp for me.' A good improviser doesn't need comping. Comping adds an extra dimension (at least when done well.)

Same thing goes for time/feel. Passive, slightly too relaxed, rather than really establishing a pocket on its own.

I played a duo with a good guy today - no problem. Defined everything nice and clear - all I had to do was try and compliment him and comment in the gaps.

[christianm77]

I wrote compliment and meant complement. However the former gives quite a funny image.

[grahambop]

I wrote compliment and meant complement. However the former gives quite a funny image.

Made sense to me, I mean you want to keep the gig!

[grahambop]

Flattery is a much-neglected aspect of jazz guitar technique.

[snoskier63]

I didn’t have an opinion on this until watching a video of Mulgrew Miller addressing a group of jazz students. He spoke of jazz as being a language with proper syntax, and to properly play jazz you need to listen to the greats to learn that syntax, and then make it your own. I equate that to language. When we learn English, for example, we first listen to those around us and we develop a very basic understanding of English, but we don’t yet truly know much. We the learn the alphabet, spelling, phonics, grammar, and how to write. We do all of that not by having deep, intellectual conversations with scholars, but by memorizing letters, spellings of words, parts of speech, and so on. We then apply what we have memorized through our communications with friends, family, teachers, and everyone else we come in contact with on a daily basis. As we increase our knowledge of the basics our communications become more complex. With music we first are exposed to hearing music. If interested we then learn the 12 notes, scales, modes, and then we learn to put those notes together in a meaningful way. At first our creations are very basic, and typically mimic that which we have heard most often. As our musical language becomes more fluid we are able to change the way in which we put notes together, and how we express those notes. While BIAB will not directly make you the most sought after performer or studio musician, it will allow one to better understand the notes, how they fit together in relative context, and how they can be modified to varying degrees. To go beyond that one needs to interact in a live setting with other musicians, yet at the same time, regularly go back to the notes, scales, modes, and tools like BIAB, much the same way I will refer to a dictionary or thesaurus after hearing a word I don’t yet know. Over time I can then incorporate that new word into my understanding of language much the same way as BIAB allows me to incorporate my knowledge of notes, scales and modes into comping and improvising.

[emanresu]

This is the actual real drummer having a good time:

Practice the scales or whatever with him for 10 minutes or so. It's a blast.
Hard to go back playing with machines.

[christianm77]

I didn’t have an opinion on this until watching a video of Mulgrew Miller addressing a group of jazz students. He spoke of jazz as being a language with proper syntax, and to properly play jazz you need to listen to the greats to learn that syntax, and then make it your own. I equate that to language. When we learn English, for example, we first listen to those around us and we develop a very basic understanding of English, but we don’t yet truly know much. We the learn the alphabet, spelling, phonics, grammar, and how to write. We do all of that not by having deep, intellectual conversations with scholars, but by memorizing letters, spellings of words, parts of speech, and so on. We then apply what we have memorized through our communications with friends, family, teachers, and everyone else we come in contact with on a daily basis. As we increase our knowledge of the basics our communications become more complex. With music we first are exposed to hearing music. If interested we then learn the 12 notes, scales, modes, and then we learn to put those notes together in a meaningful way. At first our creations are very basic, and typically mimic that which we have heard most often. As our musical language becomes more fluid we are able to change the way in which we put notes together, and how we express those notes. While BIAB will not directly make you the most sought after performer or studio musician, it will allow one to better understand the notes, how they fit together in relative context, and how they can be modified to varying degrees. To go beyond that one needs to interact in a live setting with other musicians, yet at the same time, regularly go back to the notes, scales, modes, and tools like BIAB, much the same way I will refer to a dictionary or thesaurus after hearing a word I don’t yet know. Over time I can then incorporate that new word into my understanding of language much the same way as BIAB allows me to incorporate my knowledge of notes, scales and modes into comping and improvising.

Did Mulgrew actually advocate backing tracks?

I honestly don’t know why people don’t just jam along with records. They tend to swing more in my experience. See also Mike Outram’s comment linked above.

Another thing - how do you work on comping?

As with most things it’s a grey area. In general I tend to want to follow the example of someone with a proven track record - like Mike, or Steve Brown who he mentions (probably best bop drummer in London.) Mostly the musicians I know went through the Aebersold phase a long while back and have moved on. Not totally useless, just not a primary practice tool, compared to a metronome or recordings by great musicians.*

But, if you want to find a justification for using them, one can be found.

I think they are really useful in school groups etc, where you can’t actually teach kids to play really and you just need them to feel like they are involved in music.

* backing tracks might well be recorded by great players, but that’s a different deal. Probably to a click. And certainly not reacting to a great soloist.

[snoskier63]

Did Mulgrew actually advocate backing tracks?

That wasn’t the point. BIAB is simply a tool to help improve ones playing. Sure, people can and do jam to records, and while that may be your preference and the preference of many others that doesn’t make tools like BIAB useless. Ultimately, whatever gets people playing is good. The reality is that people learn differently, so what works best for one person may not work at all for another. I certainly respect your opinion as someone who is a much better player and musician than me, but in my opinion not everyone is capable of getting to where you are musically, just like not everyone is capable of being a language scholar. If products like BIAB help some people to improve even a little they are worth the time and effort. Just my humble opinion, of course.

[christianm77]

That wasn’t the point. BIAB is simply a tool to help improve ones playing. Sure, people can and do jam to records, and while that may be your preference and the preference of many others that doesn’t make tools like BIAB useless. Ultimately, whatever gets people playing is good. The reality is that people learn differently, so what works best for one person may not work at all for another. I certainly respect your opinion as someone who is a much better player and musician than me, but in my opinion not everyone is capable of getting to where you are musically, just like not everyone is capable of being a language scholar. If products like BIAB help some people to improve even a little they are worth the time and effort. Just my humble opinion, of course.

I’m trying to be a little open here lol. I don’t know BIAB as a product at all, so I’m being unfair, but on the other hand you may take that as a data point in itself.

In general I think a music student (we are all students) should understand there is an important difference between practice and performance.

When I look back at the hours I used to pour away playing with backing tracks I didn’t really appreciate the distinction. I think if I had I would have made firmer progress, especially with respect to vocabulary & time feel if I’d done more transcription and metronome work, but time on the instrument is always good.

OTOH if your performance is to play a tune with a BIAB backing, and upload (as many do here) I don’t have an issue with that. It’s what you do to prepare for that which is important.

Practice is a private and challenging thing. I simply think jamming with tracks is not a rich enough activity once a player has the basics together. Usually time feel is a big area that needs work after the very basics are mastered, and I don’t rate tracks for that. Equally vocab is best learned from the musicians themselves.

Performance is how we present ourselves to the outside world and is (meant!) to be a joy and pleasure. Backing tracks can surely help with that for those who can’t find live musicians to play with.

(Personally I find it more fun to make my own backing tracks)

Beyond that I can’t really comment on the product. Possibly that’s all in the included learning materials.

But who wants to spend time with a program when you could puzzle out your first Lester Young licks by ear? Slow going at first, but you’ll be so much more satisfied by doing that. Presumably we all like listening to jazz.

[christianm77]

Thought that probably makes me sound more intolerant and grumpy than I actually am lol

[voxss]

Kojaks right ..sound like hes using the midi sounds .. get a grip man and Buy some REAL Tracks..and ditch the piano for a B4 ORGAN...either the BB one or KONTAKT...you know how to use a VST instrument with band in BOX...another world mate..youll start to sound like pat martinos early recordings..,SORT OF...cheers JIMMY BRUNO..endorses it....