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  1. #51
    I had an older version of BIAB that I used a lot.

    But, I stopped using BIAB whenI got IRealPro.

    IRealPro gave me what I wanted -- easy interface which could change tempo and key every chorus.

    Good enough quality backing track.

    Ten bucks.

    Required my phone, not a laptop.

    Lots of tunes in the library. Just about every tune I've ever thought to try.

    Works on gigs to quickly get the changes to a tune I don't know -- in any key.

    The main advantage I found with BIAB is that it was easier to quickly program in a chord progression that I wanted to loop.

    At the risk of belaboring the point -- that was maybe a 2003 version of BIAB, not the current one.

  2. #52
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    Yeah, basically it sucks.

  3. #53
    I have to say some of the best versions in the Practical Standards threads have used backing tracks of whatever variety, BIAB or iReal Pro. I'm thinking M-ster and fuzzthebee (as was) and others. They were great, bass n drums, other funky stuff. Weally gwoovy!

  4. #54
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    Yeah for me there’s a difference between using tracks to present ones playing in the context of band (we don’t all want to playing solo all the time, that’s fair) but I think the objections are more from the perspective of using backing tracks as a crutch during practice.

    There are ways of using tracks intelligently when practicing imo but just playing solos with a track is not itself really high level practice. For a beginner student, sure.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    using backing tracks as a crutch during practice.
    I never thought of that. How do you do that? If there's no band in sight, why is it a crutch? It's just a way of playing with a band sound. Why do you say a crutch?

    just playing solos with a track is not itself really high level practice. For a beginner student, sure.
    When you say solos do you mean single-note stuff (as opposed to CM, presumably)? I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Are you saying just play without any backing at all? I wouldn't do that, it might sound all wrong if the harmonies were put in.

    I mean, you'd look pretty silly if you'd been practising in your own bubble and then turn up to a band session and play a lot of clashing stuff - 'Oh, sorry, it honestly sounded great when you weren't there'!

    So what would you call high-level practice? And how far away from 'beginner level' would one have to be?

  6. #56
    The problem with tracks, or overusing them, really (again, I see no problems with a balanced approach) is only that unless you're recording yourself often and listening back critically, you could get a bit lazy in addressing the changes in your solo...you might meander, because the harmony is there for your ears...

    Might be interesting to record yourself playing to a track, then remove the track and listen to your solo, see if you can still hear the changes...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #57
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    Cos students should develop the ability to establish the harmony and time feel on their own. You can end up being a bit of floater, if you’ll forgive the image. At least a portion of one’s practice should be basically learning to do this on your own imo.

    Its true it can be helpful to play with a full band sound for developing feel - playing with records imo is a better shout because those actually swing.

    I do quite like drum genius because the drum loops actually swing.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    When you say solos do you mean single-note stuff (as opposed to CM, presumably)? I'm not sure what's wrong with that. Are you saying just play without any backing at all? I wouldn't do that, it might sound all wrong if the harmonies were put in.
    However you find it best to make music on your own. I’m talking here about a solo performance of music with just a guitar. There’s loads of different ways to do that.

    I mean, you'd look pretty silly if you'd been practising in your own bubble and then turn up to a band session and play a lot of clashing stuff - 'Oh, sorry, it honestly sounded great when you weren't there'!
    Well that’s why you’d do lots of listening, ear training and ‘transcription’ innit?

    Also kind of think this it something you can only work on by doing it.

    So what would you call high-level practice? And how far away from 'beginner level' would one have to be?
    Over the initial hill of being able to play a solo on a song at all....

  9. #59
    Well, maybe it's just my own preference but I can't see very much coming out of playing a solo without some sort of chordal backing.

    I don't separate them. I see it as a sort of complementary dance between the two. Quite often the rhythm and/or the voicing of the backing will dictate the sort of solo that emerges. Change the backing, which often means changing the mood, and you get a different solo.

    At least, I'd say that's what definitely should happen. I can't see the point in a repetition of the same notes regardless of what's happening behind them!

  10. #60
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    but don't you make your own backings? Or am I mistaken?

  11. #61
    I do. I prefer them because I intuitively tune into them (same mind/brain) and also because my acoustic sound doesn't always sound very good over one of those recorded backings.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    no, it isn't real musicians playing.
    If the parts are actually played by real musicians of very high caliber in many cases, how is it not so for you? It makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    It's samples of real musicians cobbled together in a crude simulation of real musicians playing.
    That's EXACTLY what multi-track recording is. What exactly do you mean with "crude simulation"? BIAB is a managing system of playing samples of pre-recorded music following the rules of tempo, music Theory of harmony with the added part of what's defined as a musical "style", using a chord progression and music style paradigm as UI to obtain the desired backing track to play over. Not fully-comprehending one or several of how their features inevitably leads to less-than-desirable outcomes... specially to some people that bought the program thinking to use it in a way it was NOT designed to function. Like the task of creating note-by-note copies of songs played in the radio, fx. So, the program doesn't deliver the expected outcome so it gets blamed, when it's simply the user's lack of understanding of the program itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by whitebeard View Post
    Sometimes it is the hammer. Especially if the hammer is a styrofoam simulation of a hammer.
    Even so, it all comes to "how you use it".
    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
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  13. #63
    well, no, that's not what multitrack recording is, "exactly" or otherwise. Maybe you meant overdubbing, but again, no.

    You love BIAB, fine, nobody objects to that. Anyone object to that? Hands? Nobody? OK!

    well gotta run...it's Tropical Hotdog Night!

  14. #64
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    I took this first video of my song, me playing a duo - two guitars. Then I did it with BIAB playing drums, bass, piano and me playing guitar (2nd video). Seems like a pretty good tool to me. Stryofoam simulation of a hammer? At least I don't think so.



    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  15. #65
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    Yeah, I think the thing I dislike about it conceptually is it can encourage people to respond to harmony as opposed to define it.

    So you think, here is C maj7, I shall play C maj7 stuff.

    Great improvisors did not tend to think of laying stuff over a piano - to my ears - they sound like they are absolutely creating a harmonic structure in their lines that relates in some interesting way to the original progression.

    The other thing always sounds a bit noodly and weak.

    The way Warne Marsh put it 'some pianists actually think I need them to comp for me.' A good improviser doesn't need comping. Comping adds an extra dimension (at least when done well.)

    Same thing goes for time/feel. Passive, slightly too relaxed, rather than really establishing a pocket on its own.

    I played a duo with a good guy today - no problem. Defined everything nice and clear - all I had to do was try and compliment him and comment in the gaps.

  16. #66
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    I wrote compliment and meant complement. However the former gives quite a funny image.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I wrote compliment and meant complement. However the former gives quite a funny image.
    Made sense to me, I mean you want to keep the gig!

  18. #68
    Flattery is a much-neglected aspect of jazz guitar technique.

  19. #69
    I didn’t have an opinion on this until watching a video of Mulgrew Miller addressing a group of jazz students. He spoke of jazz as being a language with proper syntax, and to properly play jazz you need to listen to the greats to learn that syntax, and then make it your own. I equate that to language. When we learn English, for example, we first listen to those around us and we develop a very basic understanding of English, but we don’t yet truly know much. We the learn the alphabet, spelling, phonics, grammar, and how to write. We do all of that not by having deep, intellectual conversations with scholars, but by memorizing letters, spellings of words, parts of speech, and so on. We then apply what we have memorized through our communications with friends, family, teachers, and everyone else we come in contact with on a daily basis. As we increase our knowledge of the basics our communications become more complex. With music we first are exposed to hearing music. If interested we then learn the 12 notes, scales, modes, and then we learn to put those notes together in a meaningful way. At first our creations are very basic, and typically mimic that which we have heard most often. As our musical language becomes more fluid we are able to change the way in which we put notes together, and how we express those notes. While BIAB will not directly make you the most sought after performer or studio musician, it will allow one to better understand the notes, how they fit together in relative context, and how they can be modified to varying degrees. To go beyond that one needs to interact in a live setting with other musicians, yet at the same time, regularly go back to the notes, scales, modes, and tools like BIAB, much the same way I will refer to a dictionary or thesaurus after hearing a word I don’t yet know. Over time I can then incorporate that new word into my understanding of language much the same way as BIAB allows me to incorporate my knowledge of notes, scales and modes into comping and improvising.

  20. This is the actual real drummer having a good time:

    Practice the scales or whatever with him for 10 minutes or so. It's a blast.
    Hard to go back playing with machines.

  21. #71
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    Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63 View Post
    I didn’t have an opinion on this until watching a video of Mulgrew Miller addressing a group of jazz students. He spoke of jazz as being a language with proper syntax, and to properly play jazz you need to listen to the greats to learn that syntax, and then make it your own. I equate that to language. When we learn English, for example, we first listen to those around us and we develop a very basic understanding of English, but we don’t yet truly know much. We the learn the alphabet, spelling, phonics, grammar, and how to write. We do all of that not by having deep, intellectual conversations with scholars, but by memorizing letters, spellings of words, parts of speech, and so on. We then apply what we have memorized through our communications with friends, family, teachers, and everyone else we come in contact with on a daily basis. As we increase our knowledge of the basics our communications become more complex. With music we first are exposed to hearing music. If interested we then learn the 12 notes, scales, modes, and then we learn to put those notes together in a meaningful way. At first our creations are very basic, and typically mimic that which we have heard most often. As our musical language becomes more fluid we are able to change the way in which we put notes together, and how we express those notes. While BIAB will not directly make you the most sought after performer or studio musician, it will allow one to better understand the notes, how they fit together in relative context, and how they can be modified to varying degrees. To go beyond that one needs to interact in a live setting with other musicians, yet at the same time, regularly go back to the notes, scales, modes, and tools like BIAB, much the same way I will refer to a dictionary or thesaurus after hearing a word I don’t yet know. Over time I can then incorporate that new word into my understanding of language much the same way as BIAB allows me to incorporate my knowledge of notes, scales and modes into comping and improvising.
    Did Mulgrew actually advocate backing tracks?

    I honestly don’t know why people don’t just jam along with records. They tend to swing more in my experience. See also Mike Outram’s comment linked above.

    Another thing - how do you work on comping?

    As with most things it’s a grey area. In general I tend to want to follow the example of someone with a proven track record - like Mike, or Steve Brown who he mentions (probably best bop drummer in London.) Mostly the musicians I know went through the Aebersold phase a long while back and have moved on. Not totally useless, just not a primary practice tool, compared to a metronome or recordings by great musicians.*

    But, if you want to find a justification for using them, one can be found.

    I think they are really useful in school groups etc, where you can’t actually teach kids to play really and you just need them to feel like they are involved in music.

    * backing tracks might well be recorded by great players, but that’s a different deal. Probably to a click. And certainly not reacting to a great soloist.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Did Mulgrew actually advocate backing tracks?
    That wasn’t the point. BIAB is simply a tool to help improve ones playing. Sure, people can and do jam to records, and while that may be your preference and the preference of many others that doesn’t make tools like BIAB useless. Ultimately, whatever gets people playing is good. The reality is that people learn differently, so what works best for one person may not work at all for another. I certainly respect your opinion as someone who is a much better player and musician than me, but in my opinion not everyone is capable of getting to where you are musically, just like not everyone is capable of being a language scholar. If products like BIAB help some people to improve even a little they are worth the time and effort. Just my humble opinion, of course.

  23. #73
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    Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?

    Quote Originally Posted by snoskier63 View Post
    That wasn’t the point. BIAB is simply a tool to help improve ones playing. Sure, people can and do jam to records, and while that may be your preference and the preference of many others that doesn’t make tools like BIAB useless. Ultimately, whatever gets people playing is good. The reality is that people learn differently, so what works best for one person may not work at all for another. I certainly respect your opinion as someone who is a much better player and musician than me, but in my opinion not everyone is capable of getting to where you are musically, just like not everyone is capable of being a language scholar. If products like BIAB help some people to improve even a little they are worth the time and effort. Just my humble opinion, of course.
    I’m trying to be a little open here lol. I don’t know BIAB as a product at all, so I’m being unfair, but on the other hand you may take that as a data point in itself.

    In general I think a music student (we are all students) should understand there is an important difference between practice and performance.

    When I look back at the hours I used to pour away playing with backing tracks I didn’t really appreciate the distinction. I think if I had I would have made firmer progress, especially with respect to vocabulary & time feel if I’d done more transcription and metronome work, but time on the instrument is always good.

    OTOH if your performance is to play a tune with a BIAB backing, and upload (as many do here) I don’t have an issue with that. It’s what you do to prepare for that which is important.

    Practice is a private and challenging thing. I simply think jamming with tracks is not a rich enough activity once a player has the basics together. Usually time feel is a big area that needs work after the very basics are mastered, and I don’t rate tracks for that. Equally vocab is best learned from the musicians themselves.

    Performance is how we present ourselves to the outside world and is (meant!) to be a joy and pleasure. Backing tracks can surely help with that for those who can’t find live musicians to play with.

    (Personally I find it more fun to make my own backing tracks)

    Beyond that I can’t really comment on the product. Possibly that’s all in the included learning materials.

    But who wants to spend time with a program when you could puzzle out your first Lester Young licks by ear? Slow going at first, but you’ll be so much more satisfied by doing that. Presumably we all like listening to jazz.

  24. #74
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    Thought that probably makes me sound more intolerant and grumpy than I actually am lol

  25. #75
    Kojaks right ..sound like hes using the midi sounds .. get a grip man and Buy some REAL Tracks..and ditch the piano for a B4 ORGAN...either the BB one or KONTAKT...you know how to use a VST instrument with band in BOX...another world mate..youll start to sound like pat martinos early recordings..,SORT OF...cheers JIMMY BRUNO..endorses it....

  26. #76
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    I have literally no idea of what any of that meant. What is a VST? What is this KONTAKT of which you speak? Bah, humbug, get of my lawn young whippersnapper.

    If I'd wanted to be a computer programmer I'd have kept up with my FORTRAN.

    Stuff and nonsense!

  27. #77
    ha hah VST and KONTAKT names to instill fear here..im not even gonna try and explain..took me a while figure it out ..when it works its magic . whole new ball game of SOUNDS ...jimmy turned bass off drums and comping with just piano....sounds like the soundcard sounds..not real tracks ..dodnt think JIMMy messes with VST or Kontakt

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Thought that probably makes me sound more intolerant and grumpy than I actually am lol
    I’ll still defer to you for advice on how to play better.

  29. #79
    with VST and KONTAKT im having a crack at Classical Organ... can read pretty good..another uphill struggle..hooked up a Cheap Casio keyboard with midi and USB ....kontakt organ SAMPLES...have an authentic sounding Italian baroque organ...all sampled from the real instrument ....JS BACH smiles smiles back at him

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss View Post
    ha hah VST and KONTAKT names to instill fear here..im not even gonna try and explain..took me a while figure it out ..when it works its magic . whole new ball game of SOUNDS ...jimmy turned bass off drums and comping with just piano....sounds like the soundcard sounds..not real tracks ..dodnt think JIMMy messes with VST or Kontakt
    Will they run on this?

    Will Someone Tell Me Again Why We Should Not Use Band in a Box?-proxy-duckduckgo-jpg

  31. #81
    Desperate to catch that phone pest...stirling job...5 bob an hour

  32. #82
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    He's a wily little bastard

  33. #83
    After many decades of playing, I think I advanced faster by using IRealPro than from the sorts of things I'd been doing before.

    My approach was to pick a tune and set it for a key change every chorus by a fourth or fifth. 13 repeats.

    I'd then play the melody, solo, and comp.

    Good for:

    learning tunes

    ear training

    getting comfortable in 12 keys

    getting chord changes to be automatic by sound in 12 keys.

    finding weaknesses in my knowledge e.g. key/position/chord/scale things I didn't know. I found, for example, that there were chords I could play over, except in a certain region of the fingerboard, because, somehow, I'd glossed over it for 50 years.

    Questionably good for:

    time feel.

    In fact, it is good for making sure, for example, that your lines are in good mechanical time. You still have to work on getting everything to swing hard, but at least you can work on not dragging or rushing.

    Last point. This was helpful to me. Apparently, Wes didn't need it.

  34. #84
    did they ever catch that phone pest...Fled before Scotland Yard could get to the call box..was in fact edgar lustgarten..

  35. #85
    who says you shouldn't use it? It's a good practice tool. It doesn't sound or feel like playing with great players but it sounds and feels like playing with slightly better than average players. To answer the question of why it doesn't feel like real musicians compared to jamey abersold - the answer is that you are not playing along with a recording of musicians. You are playing along with micro-fragments of beats, measures and choruses strung-together algorithmically by software. You are at the mercy of the particular recordings, the accuracy of the players and their subdivisions, note choices of bassists, comping choices of pianists, etc.

    I find the guitar impossible to use so I turn it off. I try to use it with piano or organ, bass and drums, turning off the piano whenever possible.

    It's horrible at modern chord types. It doesn't understand polychords or slash chords or modern (circa late '70s) chords like Maj7#5, Maj7#9#11, etc.

    But what it does, it's good at and - like a metronome - is invaluable as a learning and practicing aid.

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker View Post
    who says you shouldn't use it? It's a good practice tool. It doesn't sound or feel like playing with great players but it sounds and feels like playing with slightly better than average players. To answer the question of why it doesn't feel like real musicians compared to jamey abersold - the answer is that you are not playing along with a recording of musicians. You are playing along with micro-fragments of beats, measures and choruses strung-together algorithmically by software. You are at the mercy of the particular recordings, the accuracy of the players and their subdivisions, note choices of bassists, comping choices of pianists, etc.

    I find the guitar impossible to use so I turn it off. I try to use it with piano or organ, bass and drums, turning off the piano whenever possible.

    It's horrible at modern chord types. It doesn't understand polychords or slash chords or modern (circa late '70s) chords like Maj7#5, Maj7#9#11, etc.

    But what it does, it's good at and - like a metronome - is invaluable as a learning and practicing aid.
    I mostly agree with everything Jack wrote here, but both Band in a Box and a metronome, while good tools, should not be relied on as the jazz gospel. In real life jazz, time can be fluid. When the music nears a climax, it can speed up, when it is time for a landing it can slow down. A good jazz player can adjust to the needs of the ensemble. A metronome and Band in a Box can cause a user to become too rigid. Use these tools to get your time consistent, but also develop flexibility by playing with actual humans of as much skill as you can.
    _____________________________________________
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger View Post
    I mostly agree with everything Jack wrote here, but both Band in a Box and a metronome, while good tools, should not be relied on as the jazz gospel. In real life jazz, time can be fluid. When the music nears a climax, it can speed up, when it is time for a landing it can slow down. A good jazz player can adjust to the needs of the ensemble. A metronome and Band in a Box can cause a user to become too rigid. Use these tools to get your time consistent, but also develop flexibility by playing with actual humans of as much skill as you can.
    i don't think a software tool or metronome or biab can cause a player to become more rigid. I think that's the responsibility of the player. It's obvious that to be a jazz player you need to play with other people.

    I've personally played with tons of players who never play with a metronome and who claim that biab makes them more mechanical and who have no time whatsoever so i don't think you can make a panacea argument here.

  38. #88
    It's really never the tools fault, is it?

    People still blame the Real Book for bad players...
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  39. #89
    No one that I know has ever told me not to use it but there are complaints about it. For myself I do not have ready access to a rhythmn section and I use it to simply try and play through tunes. Some complain that it gets mechanical and real humans tend to move up and down with the tempo at times. Well for myself it is far better to be a perfect with my time that to rely entirely on my own sense of time. If I get in a situation that the real players are moving the time hopefully I can respond.

    For practicing I find it very good and it certainly help at least my own playing. I am mere mortal playing the guitar so it works for me. I would guess if you are a killer player and play many gigs it probably is less than helpful for those blessed. When you really think of it the best practice for the guitar is to play real gigs and then go home and work on what you screwed up on or hone the tunes and skills based on the playing situation. I think Herb Ellis describe this when he first went with Oscar Peterson.

    The great Johnny Smith said practicing was practicing and playing in playing...………..I think I get what he said. In the mean time BIAB is fine for me to use.
    specializing in repair and setup, does your guitar play like it should?

  40. #90
    A Tool that's just an update for a metronome.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    A Tool that's just an update for a metronome.
    I have been carefully reading the responses, especially from those how have been around and accordingly, have a wider perspective. They have been helpful.

    But jads57, your comment caught my eye. Please tell me you are joking.

    A metronome does not have a choice of chords, and various drum patterns. I have found that choosing different real drums influences me in different ways. Some choices have more fills, which makes me respond with an nice little flourish in my solo.

    And as I find myself writing songs (pitiful though they may be to some ), depending on the choices I make for the backing tracking, I find that I comp differently to complement the rhythm.

    Yes it is more than an updated metronome, IMHO. And now that I am aware of a few caveats, I am making sure that I don't fall into any of the traps that have been mentioned.

    Peace be with you, amigo.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57 View Post
    A Tool that's just an update for a metronome.
    I just can't be nuanced here, so here it goes: what a preposterous and ignorant statement... *sigh*

    Have you ever even been in the same room with a musical instrument, let alone play one?

    You kids get off my lawn!!!
    Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
    Milano, Italy
    https://soundcloud.com/theodore-koja...hy-bro-project
    Hy-Bro Test Sound Files

  43. I kinda of skipped that part. Went from the metronome and CD jamming to playing alone and then just looping myself. It always felt kind of artificial to me. Great tool though, I love ireal for the practicality, transposing, etc. Still think jamming with CDs is a better habit.

  44. #94
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    Great improvisors did not tend to think of laying stuff over a piano - to my ears - they sound like they are absolutely creating a harmonic structure in their lines that relates in some interesting way to the original progression.

    The other thing always sounds a bit noodly and weak.

    The way Warne Marsh put it 'some pianists actually think I need them to comp for me.' A good improviser doesn't need comping. Comping adds an extra dimension (at least when done well.)
    Very interensting how things change...

    lately I thought about it too... and it is curious that I mostly cane to it because most of the time I was engaged much more in early music improvization (not just mimicking 'the sound' but true improvization)... I mean improvizing the form not variating given melody (which also happens)..

    The thing is I always saud that jazzers improvized within (I think 'within' is better wird than 'over') predetermined given from - which is formally true... where as in classical I had to improvize the whole piece within limitation of style...

    When I occasionally came back to jazz playing I found that I began to think in the same way even when I had given standard... in a way you begin to recompose it as if it was not composed before and you do not relly think of the changes given but rather move them on, create them through playing because they do not exist anywhere except your mind if you not play them - so you have to express them in real playing...

    I think harmonic hearing - hearing harmony as massive sound: a chord, a function and realtions - really helps here on overall level, it really helps to keep the form and integrity.
    And voice-leading, motivic things etc. are important for going from one thing to another right now.
    (actually just the same as in baroque music: the form is all about harmonic masses and functional relations, the realization is basically 2 voices just constantly moving the most appropriate way - only combining both is a real piece of music)

    And the next thought that stroke me that we (ok me!) are often overloaded with classical or theoretical background - maybe not always formal and solid - but still with some learning background (even this forume offers some teaching/learning patterns) - and we (ok me again!) forget that those guys in the early days did all the job by ear... and if you a solo player who truely trust your ear (and they did not have anything else to try) you actually will realize the whole piece in your solo no matter if there is an accompanist or not...

    Strange but this classical experience actually released me a lot in soloing... I do not want to say that strictly but in a way you kind of ignore comping)))


    As per BIAB - I did not have experience. But as many I was quite fascinated when I got a whole bunch of backing tracke (and later iReal stuff) but I never really used it... I do not know why but I had some kind of unpleasant feeling from it like these 'a..holes do not listen to me!" besides they always seem behind like it's boring for them to comp for me and they already think about something else...
    ... using looper was a bit more effective but again I did not really dig into it too. I think it waorks when you are totally accomplished on your own already.

  45. #95
    i spent a couple years with BB ..kinda late starter so obsessively played through all the Master jazz solos built in it,,got to love them as they fitted beautifully with jazz standards..and i beleive Oliver Gannon was the composer of them fine canadian player brother of the other Gannon who created Band in a BOX..i got good enough to sit in with a band and play 4 choruses on most of the standards...no other route to do that for me...branched out to WES in a box...ive now turned to Baroque organ as another challenge...just love the baroque guys....heres the list i followed on my journey.. good luck with yours...more advice get Real tracks...MASTER JAZZ SOLOSGS theres actually 220 solos 001 Manha De Carnaval/Day In The Life Of A Fool EasierGS002 East Of The Sun Easier
    GS003 I Didn't Know What Time It Was Easier
    GS004 Rosetta Easier
    GS005 Pennies From Heaven Easier
    GS006 Sunny Side Of The Street Easier
    GS007 Nice Work If You Can Get It Easier
    GS008 In A Mellow Tone Easier
    GS009 Man I Love Easier
    GS010 A Foggy Day variation w/bridge ??? Easier
    GS011 Lady Be Good Easier
    GS012 Girl From Ipanema Easier
    GS013 It Could Happen To You Easier
    GS014 How High The Moon Easier
    GS015 You'd Be So Nice Easier
    GS016 I Love You Easier
    GS017 Ain't Misbehavin' Easier
    GS018 Alone Together Easier
    GS019 Wave Easier
    GS020 Someday My Prince Will Come Easier
    GS021 Satin Doll Easier
    GS022 Sweet Georgia Brown Easier
    GS023 Bb Blues w/variation Easier
    GS024 Corcovado Easier
    GS025 Autumn Leaves Easier
    GS026 Stella By Starlight Easier
    GS027 Honeysuckle Rose/Scrapple Easier
    GS028 Rhythm Changes Easier
    GS029 Green Dolphin Street Easier
    GS030 "Take The ""A"" Train" Easier
    GS031 My Funny Valentine Intermediate
    GS032 When Your Lover Has Gone Intermediate
    GS033 It's Only A Paper Moon Intermediate
    GS034 Our Love Is Here To Stay Intermediate
    GS035 A Foggy Day Intermediate
    GS036 This Will Be My Shining Hour
    GS037 My Romance Intermediate
    GS038 Have You Met Miss Jones Intermediate
    GS039 Advanced
    GS040 Like Someone In Love Advanced
    GS041 Just Friends Intermediate
    GS042 Shadow Of Your Smile Advanced
    GS043 It's You Or No One Advanced
    GS044 Blue Skies Advanced
    GS045 I Concentrate On You Advanced
    GS046 All The Things You Are Advanced
    GS047 Rhythm Changes Advanced
    GS048 I Remember You Intermediate
    GS049 There Will Never Be Another You Intermediate
    GS050 How About You Intermediate
    GS051 My Funny Valentine Easy
    GS052 When Your Lover Has Gone Easy
    GS053 Confirmation Easy
    GS054 Once I Loved Easy
    GS055 I'm In The Mood For Love Easy
    GS056 Old Devil Moon Easy
    GS057 Lazy Bird Easy
    GS058 Georgia Easy
    GS059 KTOBCTOI also 119 Easy
    GS060 I Thought About You Easy
    GS061 Where Or When Easy
    GS062 It Don't Mean A Thing… Easy
    GS063 Moonglow Easy
    GS064 Fly Me To The Moon Easy
    GS065 Don't Get Around Much Anymore Easy
    GS066 All Blues Easy
    GS067 Hello Dolly Easy
    GS068 Blue Skies Easy
    GS069 Bluesette Easy
    GS070 A Night In Tunisia Easy
    GS071 Darn That Dream Easy
    GS072 Deed I do???? Easy
    GS073 All The Things You Are Easy
    GS074 Perdido Easy
    GS075 On A Clear Day Easy
    GS076 Triste Easy Bossa
    GS077 Love Walked In Easy Swing
    GS078 Yesterdays Easy
    GS079 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Easy
    GS080 Just In Time Easy
    GS081 That's All Intermediate
    GS082 Airegin Intermediate
    GS083 All Of You Intermediate
    GS084 Am I Blue Intermediate
    GS085 Blue Moon Intermediate
    GS086 There Will Never Be Another You Intermediate
    GS087 There Is No Greater Love Intermediate
    GS088 Jeannine Intermediate
    GS089 Jordu Intermediate
    GS090 Intermediate
    GS091 If I Should Lose You Intermediate
    GS092 Speak Low Intermediate
    GS093 Algo Bueno Intermediate
    GS094 Blue Bossa Intermediate
    GS095 Easy Living Intermediate
    GS096 Bye Bye Blackbird Intermediate
    GS097 Four Intermediate
    GS098 Joy Spring Intermediate
    GS099 Laura Intermediate
    GS100 Colors of Chloe???? Intermediate
    GS101 Falling In Love With Love Intermediate
    GS102 I Should Care Intermediate
    GS103 In Your Own Sweet Way Intermediate
    GS104 Alice In Wonderland Intermediate
    GS105 Just Friends Intermediate
    GS106 Up A Lazy River Intermediate
    GS107 Cherokee Intermediate
    GS108 Dolphin Dance Intermediate
    GS109 Doxy Intermediate
    GS110 Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me Intermediate
    GS111 My Funny Valentine Chord Solo
    GS112 When Your Lover Has Gone Chord Solo
    GS113 Confirmation Chord Solo
    GS114 Once I Loved Chord Solo
    GS115 I'm In The Mood For Love Chord Solo
    GS116 Old Devil Moon Chord Solo
    GS117 Lazy Bird Chord Solo
    GS118 Georgia Chord Solo
    GS119 Same as 59 Chord Solo
    GS120 I Thought About You Chord Solo
    GS121 Where Or When Chord Solo
    GS122 It Don't Mean A Thing… Chord Solo
    GS123 Moonglow Chord Solo
    GS124 Fly Me To The Moon Chord Solo
    GS125 Don't Get Around Much Anymore Chord Solo
    GS126 All Blues Chord Solo
    GS127 Hello Dolly Chord Solo
    GS128 Blue Skies Chord Solo
    GS129 Bluesette Chord Solo
    GS130 A Night In Tunisia Chord Solo
    GS131 Darn That Dream Chord Solo
    GS132 Deed I do Chord Solo
    GS133 All The Things You Are Chord Solo
    GS134 Perdido Chord Solo
    GS135 On A Clear Day Chord Solo
    GS136 Triste Chord Solo
    GS137 Love Walked In Chord Solo
    GS138 Yesterdays Chord Solo
    GS139 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Chord Solo
    GS140 Just In Time Chord Solo
    GS141 Satin Doll Advanced
    GS142 Night And Day Advanced
    GS143 Lullaby Of Birdland Advanced
    GS144 Girl From Ipanema Advanced
    GS145 Advanced
    GS146 I Hear A Rhapsody Advanced
    GS147 How Long Has This Been Going On Advanced
    GS148 Wave Advanced
    GS149 It Had To Be You Advanced
    GS150 On The Street Where You Live Advanced
    GS151 Falling In Love With Love ????? Advanced
    GS152 Easy To Love Advanced
    GS153 Deed I Do Advanced
    GS154 Days Of Wine And Roses Advanced
    GS155 Come Rain Or Shine Advanced
    GS156 Bb Blues Advanced
    GS157 Am I Blue Advanced
    GS158 I'll Remember April Advanced
    GS159 All Of Me Advanced
    GS160 After You're Gone Advanced
    GS161 Yesterdays Advanced
    GS162 Autumn Leaves Advanced
    GS163 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Advanced
    GS164 Tenderly Advanced
    GS165 Tangerine Advanced
    GS166 Summertime Advanced
    GS167 Stella By Starlight Advanced
    GS168 The Song Is You Advanced
    GS169 Just In Time Advanced
    GS170 On A Clear Day Advanced
    GS171 I'm In The Mood For Love Comping
    GS172 My Funny Valentine Comping
    GS173 When Your Lover Has Gone Comping
    GS174 Once I Loved Comping
    GS175 My Funny Valentine Comping
    GS176 When Your Lover Has Gone Comping
    GS177 My Funny Valentine Comping
    GS178 My Funny Valentine Comping

  46. #96
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    London
    Posts
    13,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Very interensting how things change...

    lately I thought about it too... and it is curious that I mostly cane to it because most of the time I was engaged much more in early music improvization (not just mimicking 'the sound' but true improvization)... I mean improvizing the form not variating given melody (which also happens)..

    The thing is I always saud that jazzers improvized within (I think 'within' is better wird than 'over') predetermined given from - which is formally true... where as in classical I had to improvize the whole piece within limitation of style...

    When I occasionally came back to jazz playing I found that I began to think in the same way even when I had given standard... in a way you begin to recompose it as if it was not composed before and you do not relly think of the changes given but rather move them on, create them through playing because they do not exist anywhere except your mind if you not play them - so you have to express them in real playing...

    I think harmonic hearing - hearing harmony as massive sound: a chord, a function and realtions - really helps here on overall level, it really helps to keep the form and integrity.
    And voice-leading, motivic things etc. are important for going from one thing to another right now.
    (actually just the same as in baroque music: the form is all about harmonic masses and functional relations, the realization is basically 2 voices just constantly moving the most appropriate way - only combining both is a real piece of music)

    And the next thought that stroke me that we (ok me!) are often overloaded with classical or theoretical background - maybe not always formal and solid - but still with some learning background (even this forume offers some teaching/learning patterns) - and we (ok me again!) forget that those guys in the early days did all the job by ear... and if you a solo player who truely trust your ear (and they did not have anything else to try) you actually will realize the whole piece in your solo no matter if there is an accompanist or not...

    Strange but this classical experience actually released me a lot in soloing... I do not want to say that strictly but in a way you kind of ignore comping)))


    As per BIAB - I did not have experience. But as many I was quite fascinated when I got a whole bunch of backing tracke (and later iReal stuff) but I never really used it... I do not know why but I had some kind of unpleasant feeling from it like these 'a..holes do not listen to me!" besides they always seem behind like it's boring for them to comp for me and they already think about something else...
    ... using looper was a bit more effective but again I did not really dig into it too. I think it waorks when you are totally accomplished on your own already.
    Might also be worth pointing out that jazz has become progressively harder to play by ear alone, which is not to say impossible.

    Standards and old school tunes you might have to map a couple of modulations in the bridge, but by and large play melodically and you are fine.

    Bop was the first step down the road towards a more theoretical music based on chords (some earlier improvisers had been interested in this of course but it wasn’t the only way)

    Modal may have been an attempt to recover that melodic approach. It’s how I tend to hear Miles.

    But that got swept up in more complex things again.

  47. #97
    if there was an easier way to get to solo id have taken it...scales arpeggios...no time for that .i got stuck in and gave it some welly... my first rehearsal band i blew all the saxes away with soloing...god bless Oliver Gannon...my secret Weapon..BB... not interested in comping..dont think grant green was either...

  48. #98
    i think once you crack the BB solos your ready for the transcription world...id recommend Wolf Marshall transcriptions..

  49. #99
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    St.Petersburg, Russian Federation
    Posts
    2,964
    Looks like BIAB stuff makes people a bit nervous...

    this could be a reason to avoid it...

  50. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Arlington VA
    Posts
    208
    It seems like a useful practice tool to me. It's surely not a substitute for playing with people.

    It's surprisingly hard to find people who can play jazz credibly. You can find tons of rock guys, but a decent jazz drummer? Bass player? Even where I live suburban Washington DC, there aren't many guys who are very good.

    I'm a decent jazz bass player. Gig all the time on bass, or did anyway, til I got old enough to where the fun/work ration skewed to Farr towards work. I'm sort of an ok jazz guitar player. If I want to put together a band to play guitar with, I've got to find a bass player. I'm not likely, and this is not bragging, it's just fact, to find a bass player as good or better than me. It's not that I'm great, I'm not; there just aren't that many around, and if they're around, they aren't available. All the usual difficulties of organizing a band--availability, temperament, skill level, commitment--are compounded when you have a smaller core of potential players. I don't want to come off as a snob, but playing with a bad drummer just sucks all the joy away.

    So if I want to practice tunes at high tempos, BIAB is a useful practice tool. Do I wish good jazz players were easy to find? Hell yes

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