The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Hey Guys!

    I'm conducting a study on the topic of digitally modelled amps. It's based on my own hypothesis that digital amp modelling can replace all types analogue amplification (tube amps in particular) for common guitar practices which include practicing at home, live performances and studio recording. Therefore, I created a listening test which is primarily intended to illustrate whether guitarists would happily use amp modellers as opposed to tube amps and other analogue amplifiers in terms of tonal quality. The questions aren't perfect (biased in some people's opinion), but hopefully your feedback will enable me to generate sufficient data for me to prove or disprove my initial hypothesis. So if anyone is interested in participating, you would be contributing towards new research on guitar amplification would be helping me out massively!

    (Also, make sure you read the instructions before completing the test as there are audio files you need to download to use whilst doing the test)

    Survey link: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/ZCRRZWJ

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  3. #2

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    A problem with this survey is that it can't work over computer speakers, and will take on the character of whatever guitar amp it's played through.

    May work played to a verifiably neutral wide range high-end audio system, but that's some effort.

  4. #3

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    Digital modeling replaced 60-lb. tube amps for me long ago, especially after the Bose L1 series was introduced. In fact, there are pedal-styled multi-processors that contain a tube or two, and make much more sense for traveling and saving your back and knees if you must have a tube sound. dbx makes a tube preamp for $50 that turns any SS amp into a tube amp, and weighs a pound or so.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by boatheelmusic
    A problem with this survey is that it can't work over computer speakers, and will take on the character of whatever guitar amp it's played through.

    May work played to a verifiably neutral wide range high-end audio system, but that's some effort.
    +1

    I personally feel that to get a good opinion of a modelling amp, or any amp, takes time and a variety of music played live individually to get an informed opinion. Hearing someone else play is not enough: you must listen to yourself. I thought my Mustang IV V2 was comparable to a number of tube amps, but after playing through it a couple years, I became more aware of a thinness compared to an old fashioned tube amp.

  6. #5

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    I prefer having a choice between many many sounds than just a few that may cost a fortune, space and neighbors ears. For drive, I use a pedal (couldn't find a free plugin that made me happy enough.. except just one perhaps) and the signal goes through a cabinet modeling plugin in the DAW. Only home and hobby use though - it's completely fine and more even. If I'd have to play a rock or metal live, I'd sure be getting a HUGE thing from.. whatever is in the shop that day. I think there's a very good reason why touring bands are still messing with truckloads of amps nowadays when we already have those very neat kempers and axefxes.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    I prefer having a choice between many many sounds than just a few that may cost a fortune, space and neighbors ears. For drive, I use a pedal (couldn't find a free plugin that made me happy enough.. except just one perhaps) and the signal goes through a cabinet modeling plugin in the DAW. Only home and hobby use though - it's completely fine and more even. If I'd have to play a rock or metal live, I'd sure be getting a HUGE thing from.. whatever is in the shop that day. I think there's a very good reason why touring bands are still messing with truckloads of amps nowadays when we already have those very neat kempers and axefxes.
    I'm reasonable sure that touring bands have huge-looking rigs because it's impressive, not necessary. Even in the 60s the top bands carried several dummy (empty) large speaker enclosures with the band names on them, but generally used no more than two loaded ones. I remember going to a Steppenwolf show with several rockers who were hugely disappointed to see a lone Fender twin on stage for the guitar player. It was plenty loud. And I've heard McLaughlin several times in pretty large venues, going into a computer and coming out the PA, no amp at all.

  8. #7

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    There are a few who keep their amps backstage in a muffled box even. And I heard some keep the main wall away from stage because it would kill 5 rows of people. Although yes, many do use the amp wall as a decoration. Btw, McLaughlin's sound is not so great at all when he uses just the PA.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    dbx makes a tube preamp for $50 that turns any SS amp into a tube amp, and weighs a pound or so.
    Sorry for steering off-topic but what would that be? I didn't find it on their website. Sounds like just the thing I've been looking for.

    Regards, Stephan

  10. #9

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    Modelers outshine amps in one very important aspect: Making us hear what the audience is hearing. Modelers, except modeling amps (i.e. 1x12 combo), produce the sound of a mic'd amp - the sound the audience is accustomed to hearing live and on recordings. Keeping stage volume to a minimum, using a modeler with IEMs or a smaller personal monitor, allows the sound guys to better mix and control what the audience hears.

    There's nothing more satisfying that sitting in front of our favorite amp, but if the focus is great sound for the audience then modelers can be preferable.

  11. #10

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    My BF super reverb laughs at your hypothesis.

    Do yourself a favor, sit down and play through one of these holy grail amps, you will never feel the same way again.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    My BF super reverb laughs at your hypothesis.

    Do yourself a favor, sit down and play through one of these holy grail amps, you will never feel the same way again.

    Played through many over 50 years. Not a single one worth the weight, not a single one made a difference once the band started. Besides, my recording engineer came to a gig, thought I was using an old Vox AC-30 rather than a pedal through a Bose L1.

  13. #12

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    For clean tones, at least, I think modellers are pretty good. Not perfect, but getting there. For overdriven tones I still find them a little fake sounding.

    One of my issues with modellers is that of lifespan. I know my Dr. Z will last pretty much forever if it's properly maintained. With more mass market amps, you get a lot of PCBs which can fail, and with modellers, it's all on chips that can (and do frequently) fail. Once the chip or motherboard on a modeller dies, you might as well replace the whole thing. These doodads were designed in the era of planned obsolecence as well. There's always going to be a newer model with better sound, more features etc. Stick with the modellers and eventually they'll have you buying a new one every couple of years.

    No modeller has ever come close (IMO) to giving me the gorgeous, juicy tone that my Z gets. I can get an approximation, but I can hear the difference even if no one else does.

    If I were doing a lot of gigs, and hauling my gear hither and yon constantly, I'd probably get some kind of modeller (as well as a backup in case it dies for no reason (not that I'm bitter or anything)), but for my own use and the occasional gig, I'll haul the Z.

  14. #13

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    Personally, absolutely not. Not even for recording, let alone live setting. When I hear other people using modelers it might sound great, but it's th feel , or lack of it, when I'm playing through one is what I dont like. The issue of weight of a real tube amp is a problem, but there is still enough small analog alternatives I can use instead of going digital.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    Personally, absolutely not. Not even for recording, let alone live setting. When I hear other people using modelers it might sound great, but it's th feel , or lack of it, when I'm playing through one is what I dont like. The issue of weight of a real tube amp is a problem, but there is still enough small analog alternatives I can use instead of going digital.
    Yes, this too.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe
    For clean tones, at least, I think modellers are pretty good. Not perfect, but getting there. For overdriven tones I still find them a little fake sounding.

    One of my issues with modellers is that of lifespan. I know my Dr. Z will last pretty much forever if it's properly maintained. With more mass market amps, you get a lot of PCBs which can fail, and with modellers, it's all on chips that can (and do frequently) fail. Once the chip or motherboard on a modeller dies, you might as well replace the whole thing. These doodads were designed in the era of planned obsolecence as well. There's always going to be a newer model with better sound, more features etc. Stick with the modellers and eventually they'll have you buying a new one every couple of years.

    No modeller has ever come close (IMO) to giving me the gorgeous, juicy tone that my Z gets. I can get an approximation, but I can hear the difference even if no one else does.

    If I were doing a lot of gigs, and hauling my gear hither and yon constantly, I'd probably get some kind of modeller (as well as a backup in case it dies for no reason (not that I'm bitter or anything)), but for my own use and the occasional gig, I'll haul the Z.

    Have you compared your amps mic'd sound in the control room vs. an AxeFX or Kemper? There's a lot to be said for 'feel' when you're sitting in front of the amp but when you're listening to it the way your audience hears it - the difference in 'feel' is minimal and you can tweak a modeler to fine tune your tone in ways an amp can't. Plus the modeler gives you the same sound every time - the mic and placement are part of the preset/profile.

    If it's the mojo of obsolete technology that drives you then the current AxeFX satisfies that too!!! Analog Devices recently announced the Tiger Sharc processors will be discontinued with no replacement, the AxeFX II's use 2 Tiger Sharcs. The AxeFX now has the mojo of a tube amp with RCA 6L6's and black plate 12AX7s!!!


    ** Fractal has indicated they will be making a large purchase of Tiger Sharcs before they're gone. IIRC Texas Instruments has some chips of comparable performance so the next generation of AxeFX will most likely feature someone else's DSP chips.
    Last edited by MaxTwang; 06-28-2016 at 07:28 PM.

  17. #16

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    A working guitarist might be more interested a the question like:
    Is there a solid state amp than can exactly reproduce the tone of my favorite tube amp at my preferred EQ settings over it's full dynamic range?
    If so, how how easy & quick is it to dial in that tone?
    Then, how much does it cost?

    When sounds are compared, I feel it needs to be a double-blind A-B comparison (only two at a time). That's a would be much more difficult to administer than a survey, of course.
    Last edited by KirkP; 06-28-2016 at 09:22 PM.

  18. #17

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    Depending on what your favorite amp is the Quilter MicroPro Mark 2 might fit the bill.

    Quilter has been on the forums soliciting modeler users input on something they're working on, maybe they'll have a new amp that helps your modeler sound like an amp (and not like a modeler through FRFR).

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxTwang
    Depending on what your favorite amp is the Quilter MicroPro Mark 2 might fit the bill.

    Quilter has been on the forums soliciting modeler users input on something they're working on, maybe they'll have a new amp that helps your modeler sound like an amp (and not like a modeler through FRFR).
    Hmmm... I thought the think with Quilter amps (so far) is that they are not modelling amps.

  20. #19

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    Quilter's aren't modeling amps but the Micropro does a great job at the tones it is designed to emulate, It may not be your dream amp in the studio but it is compact and reliable and gets pretty close for everything else.

    I assume the product Quilter is developing is amplification designed for those who use modelers. Small and light and more amp'y than FRFR would be great.

  21. #20

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    Spent the day with a couple of friends. 2 guiitars and bass, playing a couple of standards and songs that the other guitar player had written. Jamming. Bass player's house so he had his gear, me through a Fender solid state that he had handy, and the the other guitar player who plays for a living, playing through the AmpliFire that I brought along. The AmpliFire was going through a 5" studio monitor. When tested for volume, the 5" distorted. But, for kitchen music it worked. I thought he sounded great. A great player. So much of it is in his hands and ears. Nonetheless, his sound was great. He is thinking about getting a Quilter. Weight is a consideration. And the AmpliFire has so many parameters that can be tweaked that it seems more of an engineer's solution than a musician's. He wants to be able to adjust volume, bass, middle, treble and not much else. Much like an tube amp. In terms of sound, I thought the modeler sounded considerably better than the SS Fender, which is admittedly maybe not the best yardstick. This may be obvious but I think one of the major considerations is weight. If I had to only consider sound, I would probably always use the Twin, Victoria or Rambler that are at home. But since I have to go to where other people are, I always have to factor in weight. And between SS solutions like the Polytone, Acoustic Image and Ethos, ok I don't own a Polytone but it's a friend's only amp, I find the modeled solution the most flexible, sound worthy answer to date. YMMV. Peace

  22. #21

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    I've been wondering how the Henrickson Bud would sound with a modeler. Small, light and has a tweeter. Then again I gave up modelers to simplify my gear so maybe just the Bud!

  23. #22

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    ..Or ask the amp seller / builder a stupid question like : ' ok - - so what's dead flat on this amp ' ?? " Top to bottom, at any volume ?? "


    The answer will sound something like : " it depends what your definition of ' is' is . ".... " Do you mean 'til it breaks up, or on the verge, or only in summer ?? "

    MHO

  24. #23

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    Modellers and tubes aren't mutually exclusive. A Fender SCXD has a modelling preamp run through a tube power stage, and gives good tones for a variety of genres. Not the best solution (which in my mind is a 6L6 amp running about 40w through a couple of good speakers), but I'd happily gig one through a good extension cab.

  25. #24

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    By the way, the original poster posted the same survey in several different forums, so might not be reading any of the ensuing discussion.

  26. #25

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    Reminds me of this famous experiment.