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Many of you it seems also have BIAB as your practice partner. Sometimes I like to throw up a progression and choose various "soloists", just to compare the styles. I like some more than others, but it has to be said, from someone who in the 80's at university spent months as part of a team of researcher students using early AI to teach a computer to "emulate" Handel's "Water Music", it's freakin' incredible!
So to my questions, who codes these? How? Why are there several variations on a soloist, eg there are quite a few Parkers? How and why are these different from each other? If you run 2-5-1 through the circle of 5ths for 40 full repetitions, how many phrases get reused? If I run 2-5-1 in just one key, will the same number of phrases eventually be spat out (albeit in the same key)? Do the soloist algorithms try to resolve smoothly across bars? Do some more than others?
Which are your favorites?
Some of mine so far (I don't have them all) are - jazz piano 16ths, -longer phrases- yardbird, -blues piano (even for changes)- and Herbie Hancock's pop as well as blue's. The Trane one's I've heard are disappointing as are many others though.
Are these soloists worthy of analysis do you think?
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06-16-2009 10:06 AM
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06-16-2009, 12:04 PM #2Jazzarian Guest
Interesting. I've used 2 different soloists, Andy Laverne and Jeff Lorber. On one song I was able to trade 4s and 8s with Andy pretty well, using guitar and sax in unison against "Andy's Rhodes". The 4 chorus song had a one chorus head and one chorus tail and I was able to setup the Laverne solo for chorus 3.
With Lorber, I actually took one of the 5 Lorber demos, deleted his chords and inserted mine. It came out fantastic.
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just checkin' out herbie H "pop" 16ths over Billie's Bounce, ask it to "pause" less and you get lotsa really long hip lines, not very pop at all! and it must be said at times very herbie! man, some serious coding is going on with some of these "soloists"!!
anyone else got some faves to share?
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06-16-2009, 12:33 PM #4Jazzarian Guest
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Yes, I've also used the Herbie 16ths soloist as well, for a chorus.
Of course, if you have a nice guitar synth, you might want to play the "piano" solo yourself, which is usually the case with me.Last edited by Jazzarian; 06-16-2009 at 02:17 PM.
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Hey!
Slightly off topic, but is band in a box really worth buying?
Do you guys mean you drop some chords in and the programm solos over them or what?
and another question: Can band in a Box notate things like sibelius or such programms?
kind regards, Tobias
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BiaB is the best practice tool, ever. period.
you can notate with it, but i find that function clumsy...but i haven't really worked at it, as i have another program for that.
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06-16-2009, 02:16 PM #7Jazzarian GuestYes and yes and yes and yes ad naseum. Originally Posted by The Korux
Chords, notes, indeed you can write and print them out. You can generate MIDI files if needed.
I tend to keep things very simple. I just come up with some catchy chord progressions, select the style(s), fine tune the drums and........... instant band.
If you use a really good software synth, you'd be amazed at the realism.
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I'd like to edit and copy/paste my fave soloist bits into a few choruses to play along with. For writing in your own bits, is there a better way than the clunky step edit mode? Boy, that takes me back to the 80's in a bad way....
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06-16-2009, 02:34 PM #9Jazzarian GuestYou can write notes on a staff, but you have to drag the type of note from a widget onto the the staff area (1/4 note, 1/8 note, 1/4 note rest etc). Personally I hate doing that. Tedious as all hell. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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There are biab files out there with all the real book tunes already created for you.
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What's the other program, if you don't mind me asking? Can it be used to dump data to and from BIAB? Originally Posted by randalljazz
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Just noticing, after a bit of casual analysis of the Soloists note choices, that it's quite like regular solo analysis in that not everything makes sense!
*Here's a thought running through my mind right now, why spend 20 years learning all the right choices when the really good playing is not as concerned with being 100% reducible to theory. I can just hear everyone muttering under their collective breath " you gotta learn "in" before you understand "out"" - Yeah, I've heard that before, but why not learn "in" and "out" at the same time as we go? Eg, improv over G7 - arp, mixo, then alt, then dim, then challenge yourself to use every other note not used in a musically compelling way? Why should I have to wait years before I allow myself to slip out every once in a while?
The serious theorists among us may make excellent teachers one day, but can they move the listener as much as some of our all time fave players, many of whom possessed relatively little theoretical background?
And the other thing bugging me at the moment, if you do practice improv over isolated chords for too long, are there and dangers? My thinking is to get some ideas in the brain and in the fingers on one chord, then graduate to resolving ideas across chord changes, so work on minor and dom separately, and then join them and work on ideas that resolve. Some of you may suggest always jumping in deep and practice hearing the flux b/n chords from the get go. Maybe I'm retarded, but I'm better with small chunks to chew on first. Am I missing something?Last edited by princeplanet; 06-17-2009 at 08:51 AM.
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i use finale printmusic to write scores/leadsheets. never tried "dumping" into BiaB...but since finale files can be saved as WAV or mp3, and those files can be loaded into BiaB, i s'pose you could...however, comma... Originally Posted by princeplanet
...writing tracks in BiaB is so incredibly simple and easy that i don't know why you would want to even bother getting tracks from anywhere else...
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my analysis of bird's first chorus on now's the time, beats one and three:
root-----4 times
third-----2 times
fifth------3 times
seventh--1 time
ninth-----2 times
fourth----3 times
sixth-----2 times
fourths are usually the first note of a lick that resolves to a chord tone.
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trane's first chorus on giant steps:
root------11 times
third------5 times
fifth------7 times
seventh--4 times
ninth-----3 times
fourth----2 times
sixth-----1 time
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newk's first chorus on airegin:
root------9 times
third------7 times
fifth------8 times
seventh--6 times
ninth-----5 times
fourth----8 times
sixth-----6 times
note that fourths are mostly on minor in ii-V configs (therefore, root of the following V)
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Randall's numbers are re-instating my faith in chord tones, but bring up some other interesting obs, like root and fifth are more prominent than 3rd and seventh, I mean, 3 and 7 are guide tones, aren't they supposed to dominate? The 4th (11th) is interesting, in maj it functions as a sus sound that resolves, in min 2-5-1 if played against the 2 chord it pre empts the root of the following V in a cool way, the Bird Soloist in BIAB does this a lot, as does the man himself.
Hey Randall and Jeff, we need more charts!!
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great stuff, so how different are the 2 and 4 beats from the 1 and 3 would you think (roughly) in these examples? Originally Posted by randalljazz
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on beats 2 and 4: Originally Posted by randalljazz
root-----6 times
third-----8 times
fifth-----10 times
seventh--5 times
ninth-----2 times
fourth----1 time
sixth-----6 times
basic tones: 24 times on 1 and 3; 24 times on 2 and 4
other chord tones: 25 times on 1 and 3; 14 times on 2 and 4.
rests (or held notes) on beat 1 and 3--21 times; rests on 2 and 4--29 times
out of possible 72 of each pair (36 measure tune).
on 2 and 4, 5 notes are not chord tones. on 1 and 3, all are chord tones (i know, it doesn't add up---i can't find my mistake.)
food for thought, eh?
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Well fill my ears with honey and bury me in an ant hill! That's pretty spooky.... another way to read the data is that out of 144 down beats, only 5 had non chord tones. If we consider Hubbard, Morgan, Brownie, Diz, Stitt, Rollins, Bird, Adderley, Coltrane, Powell, O. Peterson etc etc, surely we couldn't conclude that they were hitting non chord tones only 3% of the time on down beats? Last week I'd a guessed 25% of the time, 2 days ago I started to wonder if it was more like 50%, but now you got me really confused. Should we start a thread to see if anyone can point to some studies done about this?
It may seem like it's all too academic to some, but for me right now I feel like it's crucial to know how to spread my time in practicing the ol' "in vs out" thang. If I'm too "in" the cats will laugh and point me toward the trad jazz ol' boys club, too "out" and Joe public thinks I'm pulling notes outta my ass. I know watch'yall thinking here, "play how YOU wanna play dumbass!" Fine, I wanna play gtr like Cannonball played Alto.... maybe I should just analyse his solos and ignore all the other confusing stuff.....
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doesn't seem "academic" to me at all--rather, very enlightening.
remarkable that full a third of all notes sounded on the beat are root, third, or fifth.
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More remarkable still (to me at least) that roots are more used than 3rds, Biggest shock to me is that 5ths were more common than 3rds, and that 7ths weren't very common at all... So much for targeting 3 and 7....
But this is a very small sample right? Someone soon will come along to this thread (i hope) and show us something quite different...
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This is a very interesting analysis but as I think about it, it does not really surprise me. The problem is that the stats are out of context. It is like counting vowels used in a sentence. They are always there, but without context, it is a bit meaningless.
I would expect that the great beboppers statistically played more fundamental chord tones than not. In order to make a phrase sound "outside" the player must first prepare the listener with inside sounds. So, the effect of outside playing is more about contrast and context. Consistently hitting outside tones on the down beat will eliminate the option of creating contrasting phrases against the harmonic "pad" of the tune (not to mention that it would soon sound annoying). It is better to study when the bopper applies outside phrases rather than analyse how many outside notes are used.
Also, the lion's share of outside phrases will in fact hit an inside tone on the down beat. For example, it is possible to play a G7 phrase and a Galt phrase that target the 3rd and the root on the downbeats. The effect of playing an outside note on a downbeat will often create a an out-of-phase feeling that will cause a the listener to feel that the phrase is incomplete. It is a great device to create extended phrases and forward motion. but again it is best used to create surprise and contrast IMO. (this is intuitively obvious in improv when you feel that you must continue a line because it does not "feel" complete, even when you play inside the tonal center)
Anyway, I think if you counted the number of "outside phrases" in Bird's music, you would get a totally different picture.
Just some thoughts on this interesting analysisLast edited by Jazzaluk; 06-18-2009 at 09:05 AM.
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Too true, knowing the "what" without the how and the why is perhaps of little use. Some cool outside ideas do indeed start with downbeat chord tones.
Sheesh! no wonder people find ways of filling an entire thesis with stat analyses of single solos!
Maybe the least I can hope to glean from stats is to feel less insecure about what I'm practicing. But for me (and maybe others too?), this is a big deal!Last edited by princeplanet; 06-18-2009 at 10:10 AM.
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I think it is very important to learn how to play inside first and then introduce outside tones in measured ways. I.e. as chromatic leading tones, enclosures, half-step approach tones to each arpeggio note, side-slipping, alt dominant etc. After a while, these things begin to sound like phrases which spawn new ideas that can be forced over the harmony. The most important point to me is where they are placed in a solo to create tension, releaase, contrast and surprise while preserving the unity of the tune. (BTW I can't execute all of these techniques spontaneously but it is my approach and goal.)
Once you get comfortable applying and layering simple outside devices, you are bound to run into some uber-theorist who will say: "Hey man, you just played the fifth mode of the Klingon melodic scale over that chord...cool".
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