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  1. #1
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    BIAB: When you input a V7 chord, it plays an altered V7 Chord - Is this true?

    Someone on this forum mentioned that when you choose a V7 chord in BIAB, for example an F7, the BIAB song will play back an altered seventh chord, like an F7b9. Is this true? Or, am I remembering this wrongly?

    I ask this because at times, I hear my soloing seem to clash with the BIAB playback, even though I am playing notes that are unaltered.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    In BIAB Real tracks, it quite often does that and you can do very little to prevent it. Entering a 9th chord seems to reduce it a bit. It's very annoying.

    On the old midi version, you could choose an option 'play chords without embellishments ' or something like that, then it would play exactly what you specified. But Real Tracks does not take any notice of this setting.

  3. #3
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    Does it do it on non-resolving dominants, if it doesn't I would report that as a bug in the software.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Does it do it on non-resolving dominants, if it doesn't I would report that as a bug in the software.
    It does it about 75% of the time on ALL dominant chords. I emailed them about it a couple of years ago. No response of course.

  5. #5
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    Thank you.

  6. #6
    Lol.
    It's like Skynet in the "Terminator" Movies.
    The Software is becoming self aware and prefers Altered Dominant Chords.

  7. #7
    Wow, that is surprising to me too. I thought that is a no go, or one should at least definitely be able to turn it off. Explains why my perfectly constructed solos sound so bad against BiaB

  8. #8
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    I mostly use BIAB as advanced metronome, but hope they have fixed the bug in 2016 version. If not and only a couple of users complain, it will still have low priority. Wierd when they create many jazz real tracks. A way to gain focus could be to create a thread in PG music user forum and keep it alive.

  9. #9
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    Grahambop was the first to draw my attention to this function of BIAB. Now, months later, I decided to delve into the program (BIAB 2012) and see if there was a way to make the song play only the desired chord that I chose, and not substitute chords.

    Here was the answer (as I said, in BIAB 2012, maybe more current versions work a little differently):

    I went to the chords that sounded altered, Right-Clicked, went to the Chord Settings, and then clicked on Chord Subs. I played around with my choices until it offered no substitutions. This caused the song to play only what I wanted.

    I am trying to play around with Jazz Blues and I really did not want to hear some Diminished chord sub for my vanilla Dominant 7 chord.

    I am limiting myself to Mixolydian, according to Richie Zellon's course, and those infrequent altered subs were killing my enjoyment.

    Hope this helps someone.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 07-18-2016 at 09:55 AM. Reason: changed "builder" to "settings"

  10. #10
    Thanks, that's interesting, I haven't delved into that bit of the program before. (I have BIAB 2011).

    For a few bars of a C7 chord on its own, it does seem to help. I changed the option to 'best subs only' and this stopped it showing C13b9 and so on. When I played it, it did sound better, just limiting to C7 or C7b5 which is fine.

    Then I tried an actual progression/tune. A terrible example for me is Goodbye Porkpie Hat. It always plays the most awful subs for all the 7th chords when I want it to stick to what I've specified. At first I couldn't seem to make any difference (it said 'no subs available'), but I kept messing about. By choosing 'best subs only' + 'less chords/simplifying' and switching off 'jazz substitutions', I then got a much better result on the first 4 bars. It seemed to play the voicings I'd actually specified.

    So I'll keep experimenting. But thanks very much - I think you have definitely hit on something there!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Thanks, that's interesting, I haven't delved into that bit of the program before. (I have BIAB 2011).

    For a few bars of a C7 chord on its own, it does seem to help. I changed the option to 'best subs only' and this stopped it showing C13b9 and so on. When I played it, it did sound better, just limiting to C7 or C7b5 which is fine.

    Then I tried an actual progression/tune. A terrible example for me is Goodbye Porkpie Hat. It always plays the most awful subs for all the 7th chords when I want it to stick to what I've specified. At first I couldn't seem to make any difference (it said 'no subs available'), but I kept messing about. By choosing 'best subs only' + 'less chords/simplifying' and switching off 'jazz substitutions', I then got a much better result on the first 4 bars. It seemed to play the voicings I'd actually specified.

    So I'll keep experimenting. But thanks very much - I think you have definitely hit on something there!
    I had the same conclusions as you. Switching off "Jazz substitutions" was part of the answer for me, as well as choosing the other options you chose.

    I just don't know how to do it without having to click on each chord individually.

    Either way, I feel really good about discovering this, and am glad you could benefit as well.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Thanks, that's interesting, I haven't delved into that bit of the program before. (I have BIAB 2011).

    For a few bars of a C7 chord on its own, it does seem to help. I changed the option to 'best subs only' and this stopped it showing C13b9 and so on. When I played it, it did sound better, just limiting to C7 or C7b5 which is fine.

    Then I tried an actual progression/tune. A terrible example for me is Goodbye Porkpie Hat. It always plays the most awful subs for all the 7th chords when I want it to stick to what I've specified. At first I couldn't seem to make any difference (it said 'no subs available'), but I kept messing about. By choosing 'best subs only' + 'less chords/simplifying' and switching off 'jazz substitutions', I then got a much better result on the first 4 bars. It seemed to play the voicings I'd actually specified.

    So I'll keep experimenting. But thanks very much - I think you have definitely hit on something there!
    Well this is very odd. I just tried this again and it didn't work at all! I'm not convinced it really makes much difference, perhaps the first time I got lucky and BIAB happened to play reasonable voicings (by the law of averages, it does that sometimes). Needs further investigation!

  13. #13
    I think you just turn it off in song settings. Says something like "allow substitutions"

  14. #14
    I'll have a look. Problem is that a lot of those settings which worked in the older version don't seem to work on the Real Tracks version.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco View Post
    I think you just turn it off in song settings. Says something like "allow substitutions"
    Checked this option, in mine (2011) it's called allow chord embellishment. Unfortunately this has no effect on Real Tracks, it only works when you revert to midi sounds.

    It still seems to me that the jazz styles have automatic chord substitution built in, and in Real Tracks it cannot be defeated.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Checked this option, in mine (2011) it's called allow chord embellishment. Unfortunately this has no effect on Real Tracks, it only works when you revert to midi sounds.

    It still seems to me that the jazz styles have automatic chord substitution built in, and in Real Tracks it cannot be defeated.

    Well, if your conclusions are correct, then all I can say is.....(Click on link below)


  17. #17
    Ha ha, yes that sums it up! I suppose for practice purposes it's more of an irritation really. Bit annoying when you want to make a recording or video though.

    When I did 'Stella' for the practical standards thread, I generated a WAV file from BIAB about 5 times until I got one without some horrible subs in it!

  18. #18
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    Once again, and more emphatically....


  19. #19
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    Seriously, this begs the question that I have asked before and still not really gotten a satisfactory answer.

    The question is, what do you do when you play with a band that is like BIAB real tracks, and substitutes all sorts of chords you may not want? Is it agreed on beforehand - for the entire song.

    Maybe a soloist, on the chorus that he/she takes their solo, wants a bunch of altered chords?

    Anyway, just some thoughts. I will have to make due with the annoyance of BIAB real tracks substitution protocol. Man, that's a bummer - just when I was starting to get make good progress with my soloing, my main tool turns out to be deficient.

    I will have to go back to recording my own backing tracks or using my looper.

  20. #20
    I read somewhere that Chet Baker would shout at his pianists when they played a voicing he didn't like, so that's one way!

    Probably it's down to listening and reacting to what the soloist likes, a bit of ESP probably helps.

    Re. BIAB it may be possible to reassign the piano to non Realtrack (midi) then see if switching off chord embellishments works? If it lets you keep Real bass and drums it might not sound too bad.

  21. #21
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    Guys, as someone who does not yet have a BIAB edition of any kind, can you enlighten me with how often you use the programs and Real Tracks for practice or making home recordings? Daily, every few days, once a week...

    I'm trying to decide whether it should be the next thing for me to aim at improving recordings short of oxygen breathing mirror fogging humans.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Re. BIAB it may be possible to reassign the piano to non Realtrack (midi) then see if switching off chord embellishments works? If it lets you keep Real bass and drums it might not sound too bad.
    Oh well, I tried this and it still didn't work.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    Guys, as someone who does not yet have a BIAB edition of any kind, can you enlighten me with how often you use the programs and Real Tracks for practice or making home recordings? Daily, every few days, once a week...

    I'm trying to decide whether it should be the next thing for me to aim at improving recordings short of oxygen breathing mirror fogging humans.
    I don't practise with it much these days, but it's still useful for creating backing tracks for recordings.

    One problem is that my computer is so old and slow now that it can't play back the real track audio in 'real time' without stuttering! (This doesn't apply when I make recordings, because I start by exporting the BIAB output to a WAV file, this always works ok).

  24. #24
    I use BIAB (with RealDrums but not RealTracks) daily. It is my constant practice tool. Play the tune faster, slower, change keys, isolate a 4 bar segment and work out ideas over just that section, etc, etc.

  25. #25
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    How long roughly does it take to set up a Real Tracks backup trio or something? I really like the results as basic tracks for home recordings short of oxygen breathing human musicians.

    My tech stuff is aging at this point. MacBook is about five years or more now. PC more like three or four.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit View Post
    How long roughly does it take to set up a Real Tracks backup trio or something? I really like the results as basic tracks for home recordings short of oxygen breathing human musicians.

    My tech stuff is aging at this point. MacBook is about five years or more now. PC more like three or four.
    It's pretty quick - you basically type chord names into cells a bit like a spreadsheet. e.g. C, Am7b5 etc. You can keep the chord types very basic and do an option to 'jazz up' the chords afterwards, this adds all the extensions so 'C' becomes 'Cmaj7' for example. For an AABA standard you only need to type the first 8 bars and the bridge, you can copy and paste the rest into place. Set the tempo and press play.

    If you look at the pgmusic website I think they have video demos showing how you enter a tune.
    Last edited by grahambop; 07-29-2016 at 11:54 AM.

  27. #27
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    I use the BIAB to create and export backing tracks to a WAV file, and then burn this to a CD.

    For instance, for my Jazz Blues practice, I have a CD with Blues in F7 at different tempos. While I am in the car on my daily commute, I play the track and hum/scat to it while going down the highway.

    It is a great way to get a progression in your head. If I come up with a riff I like, I record it on a little micro recorder that I carry.

    I also use BIAB to see how some of the songs I have created would sound when played by a band. I really like some of them, while others were not quite what I wanted.

    I will even play with some of my original songs, experimenting with chord subs, and sticking in ii-Vs here and there.

    It has fulfilled many of my music needs.

  28. #28
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    I use BIAB daily and consider it to be the most useful tool I have ever found for teaching and practice. IMHO, it can't replace live players for jazz improvisation but it really is a great "time saver" for serious jazz guitar studies. I have used it often for solo gigs and duo gigs with my wife (Vocalist).

    wiz (Howie)
    Howie

  29. #29
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard3739 View Post
    I use BIAB daily and consider it to be the most useful tool I have ever found for teaching and practice. IMHO, it can't replace live players for jazz improvisation but it really is a great "time saver" for serious jazz guitar studies. I have used it often for solo gigs and duo gigs with my wife (Vocalist).

    wiz (Howie)
    Ciao, Howie! Thanks for all you do on the forum.

    Could you be a bit more specific as to how you use BIAB for solo or duo gigs?

  31. #31

    Updated info as of BIAB 2019

    Hi,

    An update on this subject - as of BIAB 2019 (Windows version, in my case) there is a checkbox in Song Settings called 'Force Song to Simple Arrangement (non-embellished)'.

    I can't vouch for every possible case, but in general checking this will do what it says and remedy the situation described in this topic. (Be sure to regenerate the song after changing the setting.)
    Attached Images Attached Images BIAB: When you input a V7 chord, it plays an altered V7 Chord - Is this true?-biab-simple-01-jpg 

  32. #32
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    sj1 is correct. I had had this exact issue forever with BIAB. There would be a 7th chord voicing the Piano part would play that just sounds all wrong and awful. I often import BIAB generated midi files into Apple Logos where I would re-voice the piano notes of the crap chords to my liking.

    I finally called PGMusic and was told to select the "Force song to simple arrangement, non embellished" and that seems to be a little better.

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Levin View Post
    sj1 is correct. I had had this exact issue forever with BIAB. There would be a 7th chord voicing the Piano part would play that just sounds all wrong and awful. I often import BIAB generated midi files into Apple Logos where I would re-voice the piano notes of the crap chords to my liking.

    I finally called PGMusic and was told to select the "Force song to simple arrangement, non embellished" and that seems to be a little better.

    Can you be more specific than "seems to be a little better"?

    I'm considering buying this software, but this sort of thing would be a deal breaker for me.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  34. #34
    IMO it's unlikely another user is going to put themselves on the line to say "I guarantee you'll be satisfied!"

    However, PG Music *has* put themselves on the line (for 30 days).

    FWIW, I recommend you take them up on their satisfaction guarantee offer at some point where you know you'll have enough time available in the next month to evaluate and come to a good decision for yourself.

    Cheers!

    BIAB: When you input a V7 chord, it plays an altered V7 Chord - Is this true?-pg-music-30d-guarantee-jpg

  35. #35

    Call for the Facts

    I'll add also that I'd love to see an official comprehensive PG Music technical explanation of the 'Force Song to Simple Arrangement (non-embellished)' feature - exactly what it will and won't do under different circumstances (if there are differences).

    From my own user's POV, I'd like to be able to tell BIAB to absolutely, definitely *only* play the chord notes as per what I have specified with the symbols I've typed in.

    Then separately, I'd like for BIAB to be able to do all kinds of embellishments when I set options for it to do so.

    I'm not saying we aren't there now (we might be), but BIAB has had such a long and interesting course of evolution that I find it hard to say for sure! (and doing the definitive set of experiments in the field is not something I currently have the time to prioritize)

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sj1 View Post
    IMO it's unlikely another user is going to put themselves on the line to say "I guarantee you'll be satisfied!"

    However, PG Music *has* put themselves on the line (for 30 days).

    FWIW, I recommend you take them up on their satisfaction guarantee offer at some point where you know you'll have enough time available in the next month to evaluate and come to a good decision for yourself.

    Cheers!


    I wouldn't consider it putting themselves on the line to say something like, "Since that time I haven't noticed any issues." or, "I don't know. I haven't really had the time to mess with it much."

    "seems to be a little better." has one too many qualifiers for my comfort.

    .
    The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar; now that's my idea of a good time - Frank Zappa

  37. I´ve checked it seriously
    Here is the real answer:
    In BB or Realband go to
    1)Options
    2)Preferences
    3)Arrange
    4) Find roll down menu for Natural Arrangement

    Choose NEVER

    Now YOU decide :-)
    Uffe Steen Music: http://www.uffe-steen.dk

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