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"Twas not a wet dream, to be sure....
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10-12-2014 01:00 AM
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Thanks everyone for your input - I may message some of you (who offered) with some specific examples.
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Start with chord symbols. A pro guitarist should know what to do.
if you want to go beyond that and direct the guitarist, collaborate with the best one you can find.
Ponce was persuaded by Segovia to compose for the guitar. Ponce was of course a master composer and that also means orchestrator. But he didn't know the guitar. So he collaborated. Segovia would tell him "no that's impossible, do this instead". Segovia May have meant practicably impossible, not literally impossible, but guitarists can be forever thankful to him for helping Ponce get it "right".
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Very interesting and lovely music, Jeff! Great arrangements.
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Thank you targuit! The recordings are not the quality they should be, but I'm in the process of finding players to make better ones.
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Here are a few of the chords I have in mind (they will sound an octave lower):
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Maybe I missed it, but what is the project?
BTW - why not 3 and 4 note voicings instead of 4 and 5? Are you arranging for solo guitar?
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It's an ensemble piece, but the guitar is prominent at this point, so it needs to sound full.
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One possible solution is to drop the 2nd voice an octave.
You lose the close interval, but end up with something more playable
with the exception of the 3rd chord.
To play F X E Bb Eb F# (1 X 2 3 4 2) requires either a 2nd finger barre on the 2nd fret,
or playing the low F with the thumb. I can't execute either.
Anyway, check out the attachment, let me know if opening up the intervals doesn't destroy the musical intent.Last edited by bako; 10-18-2014 at 01:27 AM.
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Hm. If I saw that in a chart I'd probably choose to drop a note in a couple of places. I don't have my guitar but where maybe not impossible, difficult. First chord is fine. 2nd fine. Third I'd probably drop out the bottom note or play it with hammer on with my right hand.
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That's sight reading or playing it with limited rehearsal.
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Unplayable chord voicings for guitar.
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Two guitars playing every other note?
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Without extraordinary technique, which should be notated, these are unplayable. As said earlier a two handed approach would would, but these things are often notated in guitaristic fashion. As a composer myself, if you want something played, even by very accomplished musicians, you need to make it communicable and relatively easy to play, or it won't get played, unless you're a big time composer.
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Watch out for close intervals on the guitar.
generalizing of course.
seconds are a beotch.
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Some interesting chord constructions and sonorities! If I could proffer a suggestion - I would consider breaking those chords down into poly chords as guitar plus a wind instrument or two. Frankly, though those are beautiful sonorities, by themselves these chords would not sound as effective on guitar as piano, some of the close voicings sounding awkward on the guitar.
Jeff has obvious arranging skills, listening to the selections on his CD Baby site.
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Originally Posted by targuit
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At the heart of writing/arranging harmonically for a string instrument is awareness of how each interval is formed by an average human hand within standard techniques.
Melodically, guitar generally offers 2 options for playing any interval within hands reach.
Harmonically, some intervals have only one option (using open strings expands options in certain keys).
Minor 2nds on the string pairs tuned in 4ths will be played by the 4th and 1st finger.
This plants the hand in a way that limits possibilities of reach for the remaining fingers.
Playing five and six note chords with 4 fingers is highly dependent on the angles required to realize each interval.
The viable vocabulary of 5 and 6 note chords is limited by playability.
Higher up the fingerboard, the fret spacing becomes increasingly closer.
Some interval structures impossible to play lower down the neck become achievable
Work arounds include:
two handed tapping (which limits articulation options somewhat)
scordatura
playing some notes sequentially rather than simultaneous
hiring a guitarist with singular dexterity
Attached is a 12 fret fingerboard diagram I use for teaching.
Pitch wise, the notes from the 12th fret onward are a repeat of the notes on the frets 0-11, sounding an octave higher.
While many things might sound good on a synth using a guitar like patch or in a notation program score mock up,
great sounds within the digital media don't always translate to physical reality.
Our task as composer/orchestrator is to realize our musical intent within the friendly limitations of the players and
the instrument in their hands.
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Thank you all for your helpful feedback, and your compliments. I think a good solution in this case will be to pare down the guitar voicings to the essential pitches and supplement with piano, which does not have a problem with close voicings, and possibly add some low winds.
Henry: you first said that the first two chords are OK, but then you said they wouldn't work. I gather that they won't?
Also: Why do you think that some sonorities which sound acceptable when produced digitally, do not always translate to physical instruments? I'm guessing it has to do with how the vibrating air produced by strings and reeds somehow acts differently than that produced by a speaker. After all, speakers reproduce any instrument by the same physical mechanism, but each instrument resonates in its own way.
Maybe it involves sympathetic vibrations/difference tones - which I would think exist even in computer-generated tones, but possibly in a different way. One of these days I'll have to play them side-by-side and see how they differ.
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I don't think I said they wouldn't work, or I didn't mean to say that. The first two chords are ok but awkward.
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In terms of how different they sound I can only guess. Digital vs fake of course. Fake overtones. Fake dynamics. No real relationship between strings, fingers, fret noise and air. Just samples and keyboard approximations.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 10-19-2014 at 09:43 PM. Reason: typo
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Generally anyone needing the info your asking about would already know... it's part of the job.
If your trying to create an app to help the uneducated use a skill that generally requires that education... what's the point.
$ or diminish the skill level one more level.
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Reg - he's a non guitar playing composer need to know what is playable or unplayable on guitar.
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My mistake... thanks Henry.
I would still say... knowing what is the norm for performance on any inst. is part of the requirements for composing. (for that inst.)
I looked at voicings... looks like an interval game. If the guitar is out front, use guitar to voice moving parts and other instrument for reference. Or compose a compound line or part which would cover both aspects of the voicings.
I read well and would generally just play the... lead note, 4ths and add the moving lines as possible. Just for reference, the lead note is generally most prominent unless articulated otherwise.
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading