The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the Guitars and Gizmos section.

    Having sold 3 of my amps this month, I am now looking at spending some of the proceeds on a low cost arranger keyboard. I'm not a keyboard player, but would like to be able to create some simple backing tracks that go beyond what I can achieve with BIAB and in a slightly more intuitive way. E.g. simple bass and drums, organ trios, the odd brass fill, that sort of thing, perhaps even stretching as far as some funky arrangements to accompany my poor imitations of Sco. These will be created purely for my own amusement - I can't imagine anyone ever wanting to listen to me play, but I would still aspire to it sounding as professional as possible without emptying my PayPal account. (I am also considering spending some of the dosh on upgrading one of my guitars).

    So, I'm looking for any input from those of you who are familiar with this sort of thing. On my short list at the moment are:

    Yamaha PSRE 343 and 443
    and
    Casio CTK 6200 and 7200

    which range from around £150 to £300. Does anyone have experience of these ?

    I get the impression from other fora that Casio tends to give you more features for your money, whilst Yamaha has the more professional sounding voices. Any views on this ?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2
    just to clarify - do you want to create the arrangements to sound via your keyboard device or through the computer? My experience is that today you either have a sophisticated high qual external tone generator, or you use your keyboard solely as an input device and all sounds are generated by your computer, likely through a DAW that addresses various internal instruments.

  4. #3

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    I feel I want to spend as little time as possible worrying about interfaces and software. I've tried having a midi controller tied into a DAW in the past and I didn't get on with it - too many software issues.

    The keyboards I refer to above are all standalone, in that they all have their own sound banks and FX, plus accompaniment generators tied to the rhythm generators and 1/2/3 finger chords. They all have multitrack recorders to allow you to build a multi-instruemtal track without a DAW. So everything can be done and recorded on the keyboard. BUT in most cases (I believe) you can upload it in MIDI form by USB or in WAV form by SD card. I think I prefer this approach in that, although it may not be the best of all worlds, everything is self-contained for intuitive playing without having to worry about programming, but you can upload the product to a DAW for final editing, in which case it would drive the computer generated sounds.

  5. #4

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    I own one of the Yamaha synths, the E 403. A low cost synth that still functions well for note input with notation programs as well a stand alone recorder. Pros- decent sounds, low cost, USB into computer, can drive software synths. Cons - synth type keyboard feel, limited outputs, and modest recorder capabilities.

    I would go for a more expensive keyboard with better outputs and a more pianistic feel. Korg, Yamaha. But it depends what you desire to do with it. Mine actually works just fine with Sibelius via USB once the software is loaded into your computer.

  6. #5
    I know the Casio CTK 6200 (a bit)... plastic keys feel, and to manage / edit a song in it is rather complicated, compared to a DAW. The sounds are reasonable for the price. If I were you I would definitely use something like (at least) Garage Band to record and edit your arrangements, once the (simple) synchronisation is done this eases up things materially. But thats just my 2c. Best of luck!

  7. #6

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    Thanks Phil. That's useful, as the ease of recording will be a major issue - I'll probably use Reaper on a PC as the DAW.
    Inevitably I'm going to have to try them out. Believe it or not, the nearest place to me that stocks all these keyboards is in York ....and I thought Leeds was major city !

  8. #7

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    Dawsons and PMT music are both in Leeds, but they don't stock Casio!! You have to ask yourself why Newsense. If you go to York G4M have a PSR650 in stock, but you would have to spend a little more but it is a great arranger keyboard.

    Tom..

  9. #8
    I dont want to lead this thread off track, but if you are using reaper and the key task is to create backing tracks, then you might consider just buying a midi arranger keyboard, something like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B003...1092050&sr=1-6

    Has no sounds of its own, but reaper and various VST plugins give you all the sounds you could ever need for what you are looking for. The interface issues are meanwhile overcome, new USB keyboards work just fine, its plug and play. Depends of course on whether you have a reasonably powerful PC / Mac at hand. If not, an external keyboard as considered in your post might be the better choice.

  10. #9

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    Thanks Tom

    Quote Originally Posted by oilywrag
    Dawsons and PMT music are both in Leeds, but they don't stock Casio!!
    ...and neither of them have the Yamaha PSRE443 in stock.


    If you go to York G4M have a PSR650 in stock, but you would have to spend a little more but it is a great arranger keyboard.
    Unfortunately the PSR650 is more than I want to pay at the moment, although can be found with some good reductions in places.

    I think G4M is were I will be heading. I've bought from them online before, so it will be interesting to see the showroom.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil in London
    I dont want to lead this thread off track, but if you are using reaper and the key task is to create backing tracks, then you might consider just buying a midi arranger keyboard, something like this: Alesis Q49 Midi keyboard:Amazon.co.uk:Computers & Accessories

    Has no sounds of its own, but reaper and various VST plugins give you all the sounds you could ever need for what you are looking for. The interface issues are meanwhile overcome, new USB keyboards work just fine, its plug and play. Depends of course on whether you have a reasonably powerful PC / Mac at hand. If not, an external keyboard as considered in your post might be the better choice.
    Hi Phil

    Its not just about being able to create and record the instrument sounds. As I don't have much in the way of keyboard skills, I need all the help I can get. Hence, it is the tools such as auto-accompaniment and arpeggiator that are attractive on the Yamaha and Casio and I hope they will give my arrangements complexity beyond my keyboard skill level - call it cheating if you like .

    With a simple Midi controller like the Alesis I would need something other than just the keyboard and a DAW to get me to the same level - however I did see this (AIR Music Technology - German-engineered virtual instruments, software, and effects) which might do the trick - and be much more cost effective than either the Casio or Yamahas.

  12. #11

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    If you're o use it only as backing, Yamaha QY70, QY100, and QY700 are/ were good.

    I have QY70. A portion of music on my YT clips was made with it's presets, more or less tweaked.
    I've even played solos and melodies on it's rubber keys.

    Now second hand, they can not be too expensive.

    You can string preset patterns together and export them as MIDI to PC sequencer for further tweaking.
    There are not too many Jazzy presets. Just a couple I think/ Also there are some standard cliché progressions
    already thrown in, good for practice.

    Some examples:

    L'ete indiene (Guitar solo over backing)
    Who the hell is...? (Keyboard solo over backing)
    Goodnight ladies and Gentlemen (One of Jazzy presets)
    Young Mary (Techno with accordion sound)

  13. #12
    got it! Its true, those keyboards have good tools to essentially do lots automatically.

  14. #13

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    To be honest, all those automatic accompaniment features are harder to play in my opinion than learning the piano. With a good notation program like Sibelius you can learn to write your own melody and harmony lines as you master the software. An experience friend who can show you the ropes helps.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    To be honest, all those automatic accompaniment features are harder to play in my opinion than learning the piano. With a good notation program like Sibelius you can learn to write your own melody and harmony lines as you master the software. An experience friend who can show you the ropes helps.
    Are you suggesting I would be better off buying just a digital piano with a MIDI interface ? Even if that wasn't the suggestion, its something I might consider. For the same money as a the keyboards I am considering, I could probably get a much more pro piano, whihc can be used for practice without a PC but still act as composing tool linked to a DAW or notation program.

  16. #15

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    For that matter, you may buy midi guitar.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    For that matter, you may buy midi guitar.
    ...probably not, but I may buy one of these:

    Arranger Keyboards-i2m-musicport-photo-jpg

    sonuus - Music Products Designed in the UK

  18. #17

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    No, not that. It's monophonic. You'd need something better.

  19. #18

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    We can probably close down this discussion as I bought a Yamaha PSR E443 earlier this week. It hasn't yet turned me into the one-man band equivalent of Madeski, Martin & Wood - but its great fun trying ! I will still use BIAB for some things, but being able to access a keyboard with hundred of voices and styles at the push of a button means I can experiment a lot more and work out accompaniments for songs for which I don't have a chart.

  20. #19
    have fun! :-)