Propellerhead Reason?

**fep** · 12-21-2012, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by boo

Sorry, I completely disagree! There are many reasons for that, but the main reason is: the worst user interface I have seen in the last 20 years makes switching between songs and setting up the options a pain, all that what can be done in iRealb with a few touches. It is also a big advantage, that iRealb runs on a tablet. Practicing and making a backing track are not the same thing!

Yes, it is true, that the results of BIAB can sound better, but only when you have enough time. If you only have a short time (and want to practice and nothing else) BIAB sounds often worse!

I am both a user of BIAB and iRealb and I am a experienced programmer. My opinion is, that for me even a command line interface would be better suited than the current BIAB "graphical user interface"!

Really!

I'm not a programmer and I think BIAB is easy to use at least for me. To the readers that might be influenced by these posts. Don't believe me, don't believe the others, just see for yourself. I did a short video of setting up a couple of tunes. Stay tuned for the second tune on the video where I do 'How Insensitive' in maybe 30 seconds.

(This is best viewed if you click over to YouTube, select high def, and view full screen)

**Frank67** · 12-21-2012, 01:20 PM

Very nice demo Frank!

That summarizes pretty much all I do with BiaB and that works great, doesn, it? The additional maybe is export the individual tracks to audio or MIDI files and import them into Garageband for recording ... Really quick and easy. There are a million other things one can do with it and that i know too little about - but the basic functionality is simple and sounds great.

**bluefonia** · 12-21-2012, 02:08 PM

The quality of the backing tracks in programs such as BIAB is only as good as your sound card unless you midi into a keyboard or sound module

That is not exactly true, - and have not been for 2-3 years or so. In the latest versions BIAB uses real audiotracks as suplements to the old miditracks. These are plain audiofiles, which will play on any computer.
As mentioned in ealier posts the soundquality and musicallity of these are much better than midi generated sounds, - simply because these are played by real players playing real instruments and recorded in a decent studio.
Whit a little practice, and avoiding all the unnecessary options, it is pretty easy to generate nice backingtracks for rehearsal.
Admitted, BIAB looks and is complicated to master. I don't master it at all, - I just use the few features I need and skip the rest.

But when iReal gets realtracks I'll skip BIAB for good...

EDIT: This is for the DAW geeks. I have imported some of my BIAB realtrack-arrangements into one of my DAWs - StudioOne. Then I extracted the groove from the drumtrack and "inserted" it into the bass- and pianotracks. Result, - like playing with a really good band.

**Anandbhat** · 12-21-2012, 04:13 PM

Quote: Bluefonia

That is not exactly true, - and have not been for 2-3 years or so. In the latest versions BIAB uses real audiotracks as suplements to the old miditracks. These are plain audiofiles, which will play on any computer.

Sorry. I must have missed something then. Do you mean real tracks as a substitute for the midi files or do the audio tracks come standard?

Thanks.

**helios** · 12-21-2012, 04:25 PM

Patrick,
First-great "demo" by Fep". I am no computer wiz-I had to take programming for my major decades ago, and I hated it! But I will say that although BIAB has a host of features to choose from, I only use the ones I need, and thus I find it fairly easy to navigate. You'll find favorite rhythms and styles to stick with (It's also very easy to find a real bad sound too).

BIAB has been around awhile, so there are sites (see example link below) from which chord progressions can be downloaded--if you don't wish to construct your own chart (as Fep aptly demo'd). My disclaimer is that I have never personally compared BIAB to the other products mentioned, so I can't compare pluses and minuses. Best wishes, Jeff

http://phillipsmusic.net/realbook.zip

**bluefonia** · 12-21-2012, 04:42 PM

Do you mean real tracks as a substitute for the midi files or do the audio tracks come standard?

You get both. But as midi tracks were the standard from the beginning and realtracks are pretty new, there is still more styles as midi. The mix of tracks and how many you get of each style and type depends as always on which version of BIAB you buy.
If you don't want all the rock, country, pop ect. stof, you can just buy the BIAB standard version and then buy only the realtracks you need for jazz as addons.

**bluefonia** · 12-21-2012, 04:50 PM

Ah, - just realised I reached my post number 100... now 101

**LtKojak** · 12-22-2012, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by boo

I am both a user of BIAB and iRealb and I am a experienced programmer. My opinion is, that for me even a command line interface would be better suited than the current BIAB "graphical user interface"!

If entering a chart of chord changes you chose to practice on in less than 30 seconds in BIAB is too difficult for you, being an "experienced programmer", then I wonder WHAT you'd consider "easy enough".

Maybe if you could show me what GUI or program is easier than BIAB, maybe I'd understand. Care to try?

**boo** · 12-22-2012, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by LtKojak

If entering a chart of chord changes you chose to practice on in less than 30 seconds in BIAB is too difficult for you, being an "experienced programmer", then I wonder WHAT you'd consider "easy enough".

Maybe if you could show me what GUI or program is easier than BIAB, maybe I'd understand. Care to try?

Did I say "easy enough"? Did I say "difficult"? I absolutely don't like when people comment something I didn't say! If you have problems understanding my post, please ask!

But I will give you a short answer: try to implement the BIAB "interface" on an iPhone or an iPad!

longer answer: I am a Mac guy since 1984. The Mac version of BIAB is a user interface disaster compared to all other Mac programs. BIAB is a program for people who liked Windows 95 and stopped there. (I liked Windows 95 a lot, but after 20 years I don´t want to work with it any longer)

**boo** · 12-22-2012, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by fep

Really!

I'm not a programmer and I think BIAB is easy to use at least for me. To the readers that might be influenced by these posts. Don't believe me, don't believe the others, just see for yourself. I did a short video of setting up a couple of tunes. Stay tuned for the second tune on the video where I do 'How Insensitive' in maybe 30 seconds.

(This is best viewed if you click over to YouTube, select high def, and view full screen)
...

Why did you made a video when users should not trust it!

But you are right, your video is truly subjective!

Maybe I should make a video too with this story: I select a cell, type Ab7b8, oops, last keystroke was a typo, then I press backspace and the 9, but no, in BIAB (on a Mac) you have to re-enter the complete sequence once you hit backspace! Same thing after selecting another cell and now I want to edit an existing chord, but no way, you have to re-enter the whole sequence! (That is what I meant what won't happen with a command line editor.) Can anybody show me another program with issues like this? I bet, no...

Maybe I should make this video with a real camera with my guitar on my knees, what makes typing on the keyboard without errors very difficult.

And there are many, many other interface tweaks like this! I should make a whole documentation out of it!

If somebody is saying that is interface only, OK, then take this: I have a new 8-core Mac and when I press play (after editing something), BIAB recalculates a big score with RealTracks using only one core of my fat CPU and I have to wait for 20 seconds or more. Multithreading, never heard of it? I say, even recalculation of the score in the background is possible without blocking the user interface! Playing should start instantly then.

User friendliness and speed, that is what I expect of a practicing program!

I suppose the whole program bases on a concept of the last century that cannot be ported to current machines! And that is not only the case for Mac, Windows Surface should be impossible too!

**fep** · 12-22-2012, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by boo

Why did you made a video when users should not trust it!

But you are right, your video is truly subjective!

Maybe I should make a video too with this story: I select a cell, type Ab7b8, oops, last keystroke was a typo, then I press backspace and the 9, but no, in BIAB (on a Mac) you have to re-enter the complete sequence once you hit backspace! Same thing after selecting another cell and now I want to edit an existing chord, but no way, you have to re-enter the whole sequence! (That is what I meant what won't happen with a command line editor.) Can anybody show me another program with issues like this? I bet, no...

Maybe I should make this video with a real camera with my guitar on my knees, what makes typing on the keyboard without errors very difficult.

And there are many, many other interface tweaks like this! I should make a whole documentation out of it!

If somebody is saying that is interface only, OK, then take this: I have a new 8-core Mac and when I press play (after editing something), BIAB recalculates a big score with RealTracks using only one core of my fat CPU and I have to wait for 20 seconds or more. Multithreading, never heard of it? I say, even recalculation of the score in the background is possible without blocking the user interface! Playing should start instantly then.

User friendliness and speed, that is what I expect of a practicing program!

I suppose the whole program bases on a concept of the last century that cannot be ported to current machines! And that is not only the case for Mac, Windows Surface should be impossible too!

I have to believe your technical comments, I can't refute them. But my video illustrates the actual use of the program. Seeing is believing.

Can you explain how my video is not a fair representation of using the Basic features of BIAB?

It wasn't rehearsed, it wasn't edited. The very first chord I input was wrong and I had to reinput the chord. I had to wait for the realtracks to load. Both of those things you mentioned where demonstrated on that video. All I did was use BIAB the way I always use it. What's wrong with showing that?

How is that video subjective?

Isn't watching that video a better representation than my praises or your criticisms?

Why do you take such issue with me simple making a video of me using BIAB?

**Frank67** · 12-22-2012, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Why do you take such issue with me simple making a video of me using BIAB?

+1!

**bluefonia** · 12-22-2012, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by boo

But I will give you a short answer: try to implement the BIAB "interface" on an iPhone or an iPad!

BIAB has an iPhone app

... and for iPad too

**boo** · 12-23-2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by fep

I have to believe your technical comments, I can't refute them. But my video illustrates the actual use of the program. Seeing is believing.

Can you explain how my video is not a fair representation of using the Basic features of BIAB?

It wasn't rehearsed, it wasn't edited. The very first chord I input was wrong and I had to reinput the chord. I had to wait for the realtracks to load. Both of those things you mentioned where demonstrated on that video. All I did was use BIAB the way I always use it. What's wrong with showing that?

How is that video subjective?

Isn't watching that video a better representation than my praises or your criticisms?

Why do you take such issue with me simple making a video of me using BIAB?

You are taking my comment too seriously. It was meant more humorously with an

showing the contradiction of "trust only yourself" and showing a vid (which is always subjective in what you mention what you don't). I'm sorry for that misunderstanding!

In fact, I didn't even saw that you had to re-input the first chord because of the tiny input field (that's another quirk in BIAB: why is there no editing in place on the big score?). Please mention that re-entering in your next video!

All my anger is not aimed at you (and the other users of BIAB) but at the makers of BIAB!

Originally Posted by bluefonia

BIAB has an iPhone app

... and for iPad too

That is only a remote control for the App on your PC. You cannot use it standalone!

**LtKojak** · 12-23-2012, 05:12 AM

boo, where do you come from? English is not your mother language, I take?

If that's so, you telling me off about "things you didn't say" is unappropried and uncalled for, as for your own words you're "implying" that BIAB takes too long because of the GUI.

And FWIW, my mother tongue is not English either, but seems that I fare a bit better with my comprehension skills, I assume?

Another user made a video showing you being wrong in your assessments. Then you went off about the interface again, even going about the use of only one core of your processor, when in the market NO DAW yet uses true multitasking using different cores for different tasks.

So, to finish the argument, I've said that BIAB is the best, quirks and everything. Can you prove me wrong with my assessment, producing the name of another program that does what BIAB does, but better?

I'm all ears!

**rpguitar** · 12-23-2012, 09:24 AM

Oh, man. Blather on all you want. I am a Mac user since 1987 and I've been in software for a living since '89. I first used BIAB around 1995.

It is indeed very full featured. It also has an obscenely horrible user interface. That renders it unusable for me, and I suspect for boo as well, because I cannot stand to look at it.

So forget "proof" Pepe. This is a stupid, unwinnable argument. Enjoy your BIAB, while boo and I avoid it like the plague.

**oldane** · 12-23-2012, 09:36 AM

Easy now. Some like BiaB, others don't. One can't "prove" whether it's "good" or "no good". It's up to personal taste and need. If you guys wanna fight, couldn't you just do it elsewhere?

**LtKojak** · 12-23-2012, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

It is indeed very full featured. It also has an obscenely horrible user interface. That renders it unusable for me, and I suspect for boo as well, because I cannot stand to look at it.

With such strong statements from your part, I'd like to understand what exactly is that "render unusable" the program for you.

Do the Mac and Windows versions look or behave differently?

I find the GUI easy to work with. What's so bad you (and boo as well) just can't deal with?

I'm curious. Would you care to explain?

**ah.clem** · 12-24-2012, 01:40 AM

I have an older version of biab, prior to realtracks. I also use Finale and I have the bundled Garrison JABB Samples as well as the standalone version. I always use those samples as the default instruments and it sounds great. Just sayin' in case anyone has these samples. The Garrison orchestral samples work in it, too. The 9 foot Steinway samples sound great, too. Just my experience.

EDIT: And for a DAW, I really like Reaper. Lots of power for little money. JABB sounds great in there, too.

**txh003** · 12-24-2012, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

LOL, its an all-in-one recording/compositional program. Not so much band in a box, but a fully featured recording studio....in a box. And no, not everyone is switching to Reason....they're switching to FLStudio and Ableton Live.

I agree.

I have used Reason for years, and it is definitely not an alternative to BIAB. Reason is best described as a self-contained DAW, especially since version 6.5.

**mikeSF** · 12-24-2012, 11:08 PM

Patrick, go back to that store and tell that ignorant kid to quit misleading customers, what a shame.

I started using BIAB back when it came on a series of floppy discs and was very basic. Over time I've upgraded it and don't use it much anymore because I never could get the sound fonts( or whatever they were called) i bought to play without crashing and could not get decent support from PG to rectify the issue. that said, I can still whip up backing tracks fast and efficiently, often without even looking at the screen because I know all the keystrokes I need, etc. it is still a decent product for practicing and backing tracks. Yes there are a few oddball things that make me wonder, but I always thought those were because the product is made in Canada, lol.

I also have the iRB but don't even consider it a contender to BIAB, seriously, not even close.

Cheers, eh.

**peterpanico** · 12-25-2012, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Anandbhat

Reason is mainly used for dance and electronic music as far as I know.I tried a demo version a couple of years back and quickly decided it wasn't for me.A lot of these programs come with synth,drum and bass loops that sound pretty monotonous after a while, at least for me.

You clearly don't know what are you talking about

Reason is a very powerfull tool....until version 5 ( the last i owned) it could only manage MIDI stuff,not Audio,it needed its sibling made for Audio,since tjis was its main drawback,I hear from version 6 it's all in one a complete DAW,managing both MIDI and Audio....BIB it's a really poor thing related to "any" DAW,but indeed it was meant for something else.....

As I see it,it's now obsolete for whatever you wanna do in music stuff,way obsolete!