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many talk about his use of octaves,but he was also a master of dissonance(when soloing over certain changes),timing and had some very formidable chops.Not joe pass level by any means,but i thought he was still skilled in that respect.
Last edited by nat hale; 05-11-2010 at 05:55 PM.
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05-11-2010 05:40 PM
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Wes!
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he doesn't?
Originally Posted by nat hale
pretty much the most complete jazz guitarist of all time, IMHO. I'm sure a lot feel the same way...
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+1 on "He doesn't?"
He's on the pinnacle with few others... and that includes his amazing technique.
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now that i think about it, i guess that i have read both pros and cons in regards to his technique (but not his playing, if that makes any sense).
in other words he could improvise fluidly, he could play octaves like nobody's business, and he could solo with chords.
yet when it came to single note playing, his thumb down-strokes only technique was thought of by some as a limitation relative to other players. or at least those who could burn.
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Sorry to disagree but I think Wes is, hands down, THE best jazz guitarist ever...He has a sense of melodic playing that few have equaled. Joe Pass has always sounded to me like a one-handed piano player-he's good, but doesn't seem to have the sense of how to almost always play eminently suitable material like Wes did.
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I agree - Wes brought music from guitar to a next level. It was Joe Pass' technique that was amazing. And I'm a Joe Pass fan.
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I think it would be a mistake to think of the thumb-downstrokes-only technique as a limitation. Sure, it's a different technique than, say, Frank Gambale's sweep picking. And technique can affect the tone and even the note choices of a player.
But the whole thing is what the player does with the technique.
And imho Wes has few equals, if any. And no one was ever more musical or more wonderful to listen to, if you ask me.
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His single note playing was not only quick enough to be "burning" by most standards, it was freakin' amazing in terms of swing, sophistication, "hipness" and above all the one thing that sets him apart from all others- his total commitment to feeling every single note he played. And then there are the octaves and chord solos to die for, just impossibly perfect! Originally Posted by fumblefingers
It just "goes into your body" as Miles used to like to say...
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I think Wes was plenty quick - even with the "limitation" of using his thumb. Listen to his extended solo on "No Blues" at the Live At The Half Note CD. There are some really amazingly deft phrases in there!
I would much rather listen to Wes' tastefully executed solos than some faster-than-light Yngwie crap utterly devoid of soul.
As for technical proficiency - he had no equal on that score, either before or since, in my not so humble opinion.
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not trying to disagree with any of that. in fact the thumb softened the tone, relative to the sound of a pick. sounded great.
but its logical/physical that down only as opposed to alternate is a limitation.
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I won't argue that you can play faster with alternate picking, but at some point you have to say "good enough" with various aspects of your playing and move on to more important things. :-)
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I think Wes, and others (like Jim HAll) are not considered technically proficient because they come from a period in music where people cared more about how good it SOUNDED rather than how fast you could play or how many modes you know etc. It's a fact that Wes got more milage out of the same voicings than most guys who know every drop voicing in the world do.
After the 60's we as musicians started to get hung up about 'technique'. Look at metal. It came out of the hard rock genre of the 60-70's and it's all about shred. It's more about "Whoa look at me I can play lound and fast! Hear me riff on the harmonic minor scale for 3.5 octaves. I am mighty!!".
Jazz got like that too. Not to say that all music doesn't have it's shredders (Paganini for example) But IMHO I think the more memorable players/composers are the ones that favor 'melody' over technique.
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Actually, I find it very hard to believe Wes didn't alternate his thumb on those quick passages. It'd be impossible to use consecutive downstrokes that quick. Try it with thumb or pick. I'm sure I've heard Wes get up around 300 bpm doing long quaver lines. Even on just one note, if he got every upbeat in as well that is 600 bpm! I'm pretty sure that is humanly impossible Originally Posted by FatJeff
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Humanly impossible, yes...but who says Wes was human?? Originally Posted by princeplanet
Actually, I find it very hard to believe Wes didn't alternate his thumb on those quick passages. It'd be impossible to use consecutive downstrokes that quick. Try it with thumb or pick. I'm sure I've heard Wes get up around 300 bpm doing long quaver lines. Even on just one note, if he got every upbeat in as well that is 600 bpm! I'm pretty sure that is humanly impossible
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I'm sure Wes played eighth notes, not quavers. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Actually, I find it very hard to believe Wes didn't alternate his thumb on those quick passages. It'd be impossible to use consecutive downstrokes that quick. Try it with thumb or pick. I'm sure I've heard Wes get up around 300 bpm doing long quaver lines. Even on just one note, if he got every upbeat in as well that is 600 bpm! I'm pretty sure that is humanly impossible
Wes seems plenty fast for me. And if he could have played even faster with a pick, that supposition is surpassed, in my mind, by his having such a unique personal style. You can spot Wes in just a few notes, and that's the mark of a great musician. You can spot other guitarists in the same way: I can spot Martin Taylor in the same way, although it's easy with him because he's playing quavers.
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sorry, i must disagree. my study of music history tells me that this is wildly inaccurate. virtuosity has been big for centuries and with both positive and negative characteristics. electric guitar is what is relatively new. Even if we restrict the context to jazz guitar, Johnny Smith was admired for playing with occasional machine gun like virtuosity. Originally Posted by JohnW400
and Bird and Diz? sometimes just stupid fast.
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Take musicians out of the picture for a minute. Everytime I say Johnny Smith to an older non musician, non guitarist they say " Moonlight in Vermont". I don't recall that being as being fast. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
That album has some up tempo stuff but it certainly isn't Inner Mounting Flame or Birds of Fire as far as tempos go.
And although Johnny could tear it up, most of his chord solo things have a section that contains a run or two that are quick. but most of it is pure well executed chord work.
Yes Bop has some really fast tunes. I wonder how many non musicians gould sing or hum back the head to Scrapple as opposed to Anthropology.
Besides I said that at that period in time. Bop was over when Wes was around. And I mentioned that some players in each genre (Paganini ex.) were shredders
I also wonder how many non musicians really dig the tune Giant Steps or do they prefer Naima, Central Park West, Cousin Mary, My Favorite things.....Last edited by JohnW400; 05-12-2010 at 01:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
well not to be argumentative but what the heck.
it was less my personal familiarity with JS that led me to say it. it is more of a historical reference by documentarians who knew him better than I. (although i have a couple of his records and can observe what they meant.)
the simple truth is that jazz guitarists took awhile to catch up with other jazz players. there weren't as many guitarists of note in jazz as there were horn and keyboard players, and they couldn’t play at the level of their counterparts. (it’s just that their instrument sounds cooler )
jazz musicians have been fast since at least since the late 1930's and the swing period - and they have never ceased to be. ever. so i think that you are really skipping over a lot of jazz material in your assessment. and even more so, when it comes to classical you are missing a vast amount of material by only referencing Paganini.
also, you probably know this anyway but speedy articulation (i.e. playing fast) needn't have anything to do with tempo.
finally, Paganini was not a "shredder", and neither is anyone else. that’s because there is no such thing. shredding is merely a juvenile's term for gratuitously fast playing, or as you used the term, any fast playing at all.
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I don't remember the vote that elected you the one that get's to define the true meaning of words. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
And there's no such thing? That's a commonly used term general referring to fast guitar solos and often the heavy metal genre.
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I thought the topic was " why isn't Wes considerd technicaly proficient." Originally Posted by fumblefingers
To answer your point hilighted above:
Yes but we're talking about Wes and his time period. The Paganini reference was an example to simply show that "yes I'm aware that there have always been fast players."
Wes was proficient in "his thing" and his thing kicked butt.
"technically" Johnny Smith is more schooled than Wes. JS also used more harmonic devices and was also a proponent of writng guitar music in the great staff , where it sounded rather than an octave above. I think Johnny also has a bigger chord vocabulary.
That being said, Wes didn't need to know as many chords as JS. He played the shit out of the ones he knew.
He also didn't use all kinds of scales like double harmonic minors and stuff like that. His ear told him what notes to play.
As far as shedding. I think Frank answered that already.
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Originally Posted by fep
heavy metal what?
is that kind of like the slasher film genre?
no offense man. you can call me a music snob if you want, i freely admit it. i'm only into legit music.
with regards to the original question about "credit". when praising any guitarist for technique specifically, that would be expected of great finger-style/classical players, and super plectrists. but anybody who plays with their thumb is seen as using a very informal,folksy technique. its just not thought of in the same classification. later.Last edited by fumblefingers; 05-12-2010 at 10:54 PM.
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For me, this whole thread is a nonstarter. Wes gets credit for all sorts of things, including being arguably the greatest jazz guitarist ever (for my $, that is JP). Not sure how you could be in that discussion and anyone think him not getting enough credit.
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If Wes Montgomery is underestimated - and I am not sure he is - I don't think it is so much for his guitar playing in itself, I'd have said he was one of the most influential guitarists of all time. On the other hand, he is defiiniitely less highly considered as a jazz musician, and various reasons occur to me:
- His recording career was shortish (1957-1969)
- I'm out on a limb, here, but I think to an extent it bucked trends. Apart from the early West Coast stuff (or even then?) he didn't really belong to any school
- During the Verve years, he played way too much schmaltz. For commercial reasons, evidently, but partly, I think, because
- He was ahead of his time in trying to incorporate pop and rock themes into jazz.
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I hadn't thought of that, but yes, Wes' version of Windy probably didn't inspire a generation of jazz guitarists. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
Heck, even Joe Pass did a smooth jazz album, Whitestone anyone?
However, Jimi Hendrix had only 3 studio albums before he died, but has arguably been one of the most infuencial rock guitarists, so not sure longevity (or lack thereof) limits greatness.
I am all for incorporating pop with jazz, but man some of the material he used...
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