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I would say no.
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05-22-2023 10:26 AM
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saw them a bunch of times.
I think I mentioned this here before but they came through town as a duo, no band. I had tix but couldn't get anyone to go. finally I about begged a buddy of mine and we sat right in front of them at a tiny venue.
after the encore when they were taking their bows my buddy was so blown away he slapped Herb on the back so hard when he was bent over he almost knocked him to the ground
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Barney's chord solo on "Accustomed" is sooooo good.
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I can't say better, but Herb and Joe Pass made some pretty good recordings.
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I would tend to agree with Stringswinger although I tend to lean more towards Herb than Barney. I've about worn out Herb's "Texas Swings" CD that I bought in 1994. These guys, Wes, Kenny, and JS got me listening to jazz back in the early to middle 60s when I was mostly into Chet and surf. Still like it all.
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The thing about them is they are so original. It takes about 2 bars to know it is them playing the guitar. I know many great players these days and tons of chops and ect.. However when you develop a sound that is so your own and identifiable then you reach the magic world of some of the best. I could be wrong but I think they were able to do this because really, they did not come from schools or rigid training. THey had to figure it out by ear and experience.
I am not putting down schools or working on the guitar academically but just realize that it is all about tunes, melodies, and weaving in your experiences. Today you can go to youtube and school, take lessons and have everything at your fingertips, pun intended. The old school you had to dig and dig and dig. Barney would get sloppy with his single lines at times but wow he made the guitar an orchestra. Herb just seem to fit in a play you don't play with Oscar Peterson without some serious sense of time and rhythm.
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There are a lot of great jazz guitarists that have come along since the 70's. Many of them are superb technicians. But at the end of the day, IMO, the new guys are the dessert, the old masters like Herb, Barney, Wes, Joe and Kenny are the main course.
Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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I'm a 'meat and potatoes' kinda guy and usually skip dessert. It seems like the older I get the more my musical tastes regress - I was born in '45 and my parents were into war years big band, country, and western swing and that's stuck with me. My favorite XM stations are 40s, Sinatra, 50s, and Old Time Radio - nothing on there any newer and I've been listening a lot to 30s and 40s country like Ernest Tubb, Floyd Tillman, and the Delmore Bros. Simple tastes and happier times, I guess. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I find now at my age 61 I do basically only do a few things when I play the guitar. I have been playing much but I don't gig these days. I sit down and play tunes. In fact i simply go over the melody again and again in time. I then get that ingrained and then instead of scales it is all within the chord tones and notes above and below. Then move to things complex only when I feel like I can play on auto pilot. I say this because Barney basically said the same thing when he teaches and a few videos. Certainly, he could go and explain scales and such but he was all about playing tunes and working within the chord structure.
I mention this because when I did follow those who went the more University leaning route it seems not be that simplistic or focused. In the end we play tunes and I am a direct student of the Joe Pass school. Joe would say can you stop and know exactly where you are and the chord? This is old school playing but hey, I am getting old. The biggest problem with all this was that I did not use this approach in my early years from about age 18 to 30 even. I thought I had to know and play scales, modes, be complicated and fly like and eagle right?
Hell no.....play me the melody that I can hear and relate to with nothing more. Brahm's Lullaby has survived and really you don't have to improvise to make it sound nice. Herb and Barney always show concern for the melody and structure. Just listen to Herb play Like Someone In Love. Classic recording and sound. On a 175 at that.
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My very first venture into producing was with Barney and Herb. They were doing their duo act at a club on the North shore of Boston called Sandy's Jazz revival, and I went to see them opening night. Great show, Barney was regaling us with wisdom, Herb was relaxed and they were enjoying it all. I approached Barney after the show and asked if he and Herb would be interested in doing a seminar there on Saturday afternoon, and they consulted for a bit, and Barney said "we'd love to", so I asked him the fee, figured I could cover it (I had a lot of students, at that time), and approached the owner with the proposal. He was against it initially, thinking it would cut into the Saturday night audience, and I told him this would not be publicized except in my own circle, and he would lose no customers. So I got on the phone and sold it out in an hour or two. I picked them up at their motel on the way on Saturday, and they did a terrific two hours of playing, history, anecdotes, answered questions, and were delightful. I became fast friends with Barney and we got together for years, I hired him when I was producing at the Regatta Bar in Cambridge and Scullers in Boston, and we hung out until he became ill and that was it, but he was a brilliant philosopher and I learned as much about life as an artist as I did about guitar. A minor epilogue was that after the seminar, I took them back to the motel and headed home, deciding to come to the show that evening. As I arrived at the door, and Sandy was taking the entry fee, and I came to the top of the line, and said "wasn't that a great show"? He said, "yes, it was, Five dollars, please." I cracked up and gave him a 5. A couple of years later, he called me and asked me if I wanted to buy the club. I didn't but I'll always love the memory of that Saturday afternoon and the brilliance of that duo.
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Another time I caught the Great Guitars and on break Barney was holding court w a bunch of us young players while Herb and Charlie had a cocktail.
Barney loved to talk but one guy that was obviously a bit tipsy kept rudely interrupting him asking for tips.
Finally Barney had enough and said in front of everyone, "well the first thing you need to learn is manners"
The guy slinked away.....
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I think that there’s a lot of truth to that, but Herb went to UNT. Not that it was “The Factory” type experience back then, but he did go to jazz school. Lots of those guys were Charlie Christian devotees, of course. What else would they be? It was him or Django. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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That is not accurate. Herb dropped out of college in 1941 and UNT did not start jazz studies until 1947. I studied music at NYU in the 70's and other than a couple of history classes and some private instrument instruction through the University, NYU did not have jazz studies in the 70's. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
Jazz education is a modern thing and great players like Herb and Barney did not suffer from too much of it.
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Ronjazz, thanks so much for posting your recollections of these great players!
Herb was a great player but Barney will always be my favorite. His orchestral approach to the guitar and use of open strings continues to inspire. He infused everything he played with jazz feeling and technique was secondary and at times, tripped him top a bit. Wes cited him as one of his favorites in his interview with Ralph Gleason.
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Love to hear Barney and Herb. (And, as someone mentioned above, Herb and Joe Pass were great too.)
I think I listen to Herb more than any other jazz guitarist. I'm not saying he is The Best (whatever that means) but rather, my favorite.
Here's Herb and Barney ripping it up on "Meet The Flintstones."
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Speaking of Herb Ellis and Joe Pass, they apparently made an appearance on the Merv Griffin show (in addition to Herb being a regular in the band). I look for video of their appearance occasionally. If anyone has any leads I would greatly appreciate it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I have great memories of seeing/hearing Barney, Herb and Charlie and Charlie Byrd's place in Georgetown. Have an "LP" from one of the nights I was there, great guitars indeed.
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Fortunately I am able to distinguish my own tastes from a more objective assessment of talent and/or quality of performance. Because I was never able to really dig Kessel. Yes he can play, obviously. But there’s just something about his style and tone that grates on my nerves.
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It's all good. There are enough incredible musicians that we don't all have to bond with all of them. I never really clicked with Jim Hall until recently. Now I'm in love. So I've been going back and listening to a few of the others I never clicked with and finding some new artists to explore (as if there aren't enough anyway). Originally Posted by coyote-1
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When Herb was at UNT there was no guitar program. He studied bass. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
That is not accurate. Herb dropped out of college in 1941 and UNT did not start jazz studies until 1947. I studied music at NYU in the 70's and other than a couple of history classes and some private instrument instruction through the University, NYU did not have jazz studies in the 70's.
Jazz education is a modern thing and great players like Herb and Barney did not suffer from too much of it.
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Thanks for sharing this amazing show, complete with the original “blast from the past” TV spot!
When I watch the greats playing, it reminds me that in a way it’s all in the old tunes. Beyond the technical and theoretical side as noted by others, and speaking only as an amateur hobbyist, learning some of that common repertoire opened the door to the vibrant social side of music, experiencing the joy of playing jazz, participating with others, friends and strangers alike.
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Barney’s comping is some of my favourite. This album is wonderful
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What other jazz guitarists, from the same era as Kessel, do you dig? Originally Posted by coyote-1
Kessel does have an aggressive style but that is why he is one of my favorites.
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He went for two years, right? That’s how long Barry Greene went to Berklee, but whatever. The point was made that Herb was “not schooled”. So that’s wrong, not right. He sought school, he attended school, and dropped out only due to lack of funds. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
That is not accurate. Herb dropped out of college in 1941 and UNT did not start jazz studies until 1947. I studied music at NYU in the 70's and other than a couple of history classes and some private instrument instruction through the University, NYU did not have jazz studies in the 70's.
Jazz education is a modern thing and great players like Herb and Barney did not suffer from too much of it.
And 1947 is “new”, huh. OK.
The most important thing is that Herb could play when he arrived. That’s the way it’s supposed to be for every music major, but thankfully there is some major rounding down that occurs for jazz guitar majors (not so for classical). Jazz guitar performance curriculums should probably be extended to six years for most, but then that same funding problem raises its ugly head again. C’est la vie.
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Well, I attended school back then too. While there was no jazz degree offered at my school, there was jazz band and 1 jazz improv course. Not unlike some two year colleges these days. Instructors were ex-UNT guys who had played in the One o’clock lab band. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
That is not accurate. Herb dropped out of college in 1941 and UNT did not start jazz studies until 1947. I studied music at NYU in the 70's and other than a couple of history classes and some private instrument instruction through the University, NYU did not have jazz studies in the 70's.
Jazz education is a modern thing and great players like Herb and Barney did not suffer from too much of it.
But then, that was in flyover land palookaville. NYC is uncultured, comparatively speaking.
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