Barney and Herb. Does jazz guitar get any better?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-05-2023, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

Ah, I see. So many players playing Bebop after him makes me overlook that a bit. Joe Pass - and his contributions to jazz guitar instruction - comes to mind.

I think the question then becomes...how different is bebop, really?

**mr. beaumont** · 06-05-2023, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

When it comes to a lot of things, but especially music, I think that the European way of starting kids young works best - by far. American parents seem to wait until their kids are a bit older to start them, or wait until the kids become music crazy teenagers, then begrudgingly buy them a guitar or whatever. So for many, the music has to come together at some point and that means college age and older.

There's that push and pull of "I'm gonna have you take piano lessons, even though you might not like it, because it'll be good for you" and "I don't want to force my kids to do something they're not interested in."

It's a tough push pull. Do I think music lessons at a young age are good for kids, whether they like it or not? Almost universally yes.

But I also didn't want to force my kids into something I love because I love it. And I'll be honest, right now, letting them "free range" a bit for the summer, now that school sports and clubs are done, riding bikes til the streetlights come on as opposed to shuffling them from activity to activity like I see some parents...I feel like I'm making the right choice. If one of them eventually comes to me and says, "I want to learn how to play the guitar" I'll be ready...with a teacher that isn't ME

**Tal_175** · 06-05-2023, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by jameslovestal

E.g. the wiz kid bring in some great new ideas, but they are only useful in specific context as it relates to the software being developed. It can be challenging to convince the wiz kid his idea isn't being used, in this case, not because it isn't a great idea, but because it isn't the best solution given the context.

I bet you're talking about OO design patterns, lol. There is a good analogy between OO design patterns in programming and chord-scales in jazz. CS students graduate with an abstract/academic understanding of dozens of design patterns. When they get jobs, they bent over backwards to apply them wherever they can without understanding whether that improves the existing design or not. They think that makes them good programmers.

A less schooled but more experienced coder may have discovered or seen those patterns in source code and used them over the years but they wouldn't know their names. They may not have even conceptualized them as abstract "design patterns" but think of them as concrete solutions. But they would have much better intuitions as to what exactly these tools achieve and how to used them.

**coyote-1** · 06-05-2023, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

There's that push and pull of "I'm gonna have you take piano lessons, even though you might not like it, because it'll be good for you" and "I don't want to force my kids to do something they're not interested in."

It's a tough push pull. Do I think music lessons at a young age are good for kids, whether they like it or not? Almost universally yes.

But I also didn't want to force my kids into something I love because I love it. And I'll be honest, right now, letting them "free range" a bit for the summer, now that school sports and clubs are done, riding bikes til the streetlights come on as opposed to shuffling them from activity to activity like I see some parents...I feel like I'm making the right choice. If one of them eventually comes to me and says, "I want to learn how to play the guitar" I'll be ready...with a teacher that isn't ME

All language education (and music is indeed language) benefits enormously from an early start. The earlier the better. It’s so much easier for a young child to assimilate multiple languages simultaneously than for an older person to attempt to graft a new language onto already-formed neural networks.

But yeah, kids also need to be kids. So you’re doing the right thing IMO. As for teaching the child yourself? It’s been proven over and over again that it’s easier for people to take advice/instruction from an outside expert than from internal agents.

**m_d** · 06-05-2023, 12:45 PM

Just heard about a kid who was my son's buddy when they were younger, whose parents pushed to play tennis so he would become a pro. Now 17, he quit playing altogether, even for leisure, and all he's interested in is partying. It doesn't necessarily turn out like that but it's a real risk...

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 06-05-2023, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I think the question then becomes...how different is bebop, really?

I think the language became a bit more dense and decorative. Parker moved the ball down the field for sure.

**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 06-05-2023, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

There's that push and pull of "I'm gonna have you take piano lessons, even though you might not like it, because it'll be good for you" and "I don't want to force my kids to do something they're not interested in."

It's a tough push pull. Do I think music lessons at a young age are good for kids, whether they like it or not? Almost universally yes.

But I also didn't want to force my kids into something I love because I love it. And I'll be honest, right now, letting them "free range" a bit for the summer, now that school sports and clubs are done, riding bikes til the streetlights come on as opposed to shuffling them from activity to activity like I see some parents...I feel like I'm making the right choice. If one of them eventually comes to me and says, "I want to learn how to play the guitar" I'll be ready...with a teacher that isn't ME

Yes, if the kid doesn’t grab on there’s no need to force it. But if they do…

**RLetson** · 06-05-2023, 01:15 PM

Music education in the US, at least, is affected by how education in general is funded and thus administered, and those, in turn, are affected by cultural-political matters. When public-school budgets are under pressure, it's often "the arts" that get sacrificed in order to keep "the basics" going. (BTW, sports programs, especially football and basketball, tend to be seen as basic.) A string-teacher friend was progressively marginalized in the public-school system (part-time/circuit-rider status) as programs were reduced, until she became a private-lessons provider (and performer)--and is acknowledged locally as a first-rate teacher/mentor. But her situation is that of a small-business owner.

Such cuts and reductions percolate through the ed system, since public-college music programs tend to produce K-12 music teachers and band leaders (the latter of which have a sideways connection with sports), even though the bigger departments also have performance concentrations. Our local university (charitably a third-level institution in Minnesota's environment) preserves these structures, and the budgetary pressures common in the K-12 world operate here as well--the theatre program has been all but eliminated, and music might well be in line for a similar treatment. (Don't get me started on administrations that reduce library staff and humanities teachers while hiring new managerial bureaucrats.)

My impression is that major general-service universities maintain healthy music programs, with a handful (Indiana, North Texas) having conservatory-like reputations the way that some schools have high-profile theatre programs (Carnegie-Mellon, Northwestern, Yale).

There's something socio-cultural-economically going on with the production of high-performing young classical players--"From the Top" on public radio is a showcase for very accomplished kids in that world, and I wonder what a survey of their backgrounds would reveal.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-05-2023, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

I think the language became a bit more dense and decorative. Parker moved the ball down the field for sure.

Agreed. But for giggles, listen to Lester Young solos at 1.5x speed.

**Christian Miller** · 06-05-2023, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

I bet you're talking about OO design patterns, lol. There is a good analogy between OO design patterns in programming and chord-scales in jazz. CS students graduate with an abstract/academic understanding of dozens of design patterns. When they get jobs, they bent over backwards to apply them wherever they can without understanding whether that improves the existing design or not. They think that makes them good programmers.

A less schooled but more experienced coder may have discovered or seen those patterns in source code and used them over the years but they wouldn't know their names. They may not have even conceptualized them as abstract "design patterns" but think of them as concrete solutions. But they would have much better intuitions as to what exactly these tools achieve and how to used them.

believe it or not this is not the first time I’ve heard jazz and CS compared. One jazz edu paper I read cited another for a concept ‘stolen knowledge’ and this turned out to be a paper about learning coding. Education is kind of comparable between subjects.

One of the books that describes jazz learning the best - Situated Learning - doesn’t talk about music at all. It’s about trade apprenticeships.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 06-05-2023, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by RLetson

Music education in the US, at least, is affected by how education in general is funded and thus administered, and those, in turn, are affected by cultural-political matters. When public-school budgets are under pressure, it's often "the arts" that get sacrificed in order to keep "the basics" going. (BTW, sports programs, especially football and basketball, tend to be seen as basic.)

I’m glad you pointed out the sports angle in the US. In many regions American football is considered more important than the basics. I think the only reason some schools have a marching band is for halftime entertainment for football. Otherwise, that would likely be gone too.

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**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 06-06-2023, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan

I’m glad you pointed out the sports angle in the US. In many regions American football is considered more important than the basics. I think the only reason some schools have a marching band is for halftime entertainment for football. Otherwise, that would likely be gone too.

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True, but what else are they going to march about? And on what stage? If they're marching down the street you only hear them for a few seconds.

**ThatRhythmMan** · 06-06-2023, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva

True, but what else are they going to march about? And on what stage? If they're marching down the street you only hear them for a few seconds.

My point is that a marching band is the entire extent of a music program at many if not most schools in the US. I would expect they wouldn’t even have that were it not for football.

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**Jazzjourney4Eva** · 06-06-2023, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan

My point is that a marching band is the entire extent of a music program at many if not most schools in the US. I would expect they wouldn’t even have that were it not for football.

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So I've heard. Music is not a big priority at a lot of schools. But then some of these schools are very competitive with their bands - and the band kids are into it, big time.

I guess a question might be - should music be a big priority at American schools, and if so, what style of music?

**MarkRhodes** · 06-06-2023, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by RLetson

Music education in the US, at least, is affected by how education in general is funded and thus administered, and those, in turn, are affected by cultural-political matters. When public-school budgets are under pressure, it's often "the arts" that get sacrificed in order to keep "the basics" going. (BTW, sports programs, especially football and basketball, tend to be seen as basic.) A string-teacher friend was progressively marginalized in the public-school system (part-time/circuit-rider status) as programs were reduced, until she became a private-lessons provider (and performer)--and is acknowledged locally as a first-rate teacher/mentor. But her situation is that of a small-business owner..

More and more, "the basics" in American education seem to be justifying the hiring of more administrators. And if by "the basics" one means "reading, writing, and 'rithmetic" (once dubbed the 3 Rs), the stress, if anything, seems to be away from that. One sign of this is that nowadays (and for a couple generations now) College English and Composition courses must start by assuming the students didn't learn high school English. (The average college freshman reads at a 7th grade level. Think about that. If they graduate in four years, they may well still be reading at only a high school level.)

I feel for teachers who seek to inspire young minds but must put up with disruptive students who won't be expelled and stultifying curriculum.

**Kirk Garrett** · 06-06-2023, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Yep!

And obviously, as with Jim, you don't have to stop there. But man, there is so much value in starting there.

I get it though, people want to play like Charles Altura or somebody hip and modern and Charlie sounds square and old fashioned. But Charlie was the hippest.

I always listen to Charlie Christian. What is an album or two that characterizes early Jim Hall in this sense? I want to check it out.