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Jazz education is great… and sometimes it’s not. Thing is, it’s not possible to craft a curriculum for something that is being created in that moment. And if it’s been around long enough to be able to generate a formal curriculum, then the major creative energy is already somewhat dissipated.
That’s not the fault of the educators.
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05-27-2023 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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Originally Posted by coyote-1
Total BS.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Go ahead, dredge out some more tiresome cliches.
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
Sometimes the reason a cliche exists is because they are based on truth.
It has also been my experience that many well heeled guitar collectors are not very good players, even after years of lessons and university music classes.
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Ask any professional jazz musician - you might be able to play out of college but you learn your trade in the trenches. There’s plenty of virtuosos fresh out of college who haven’t a clue how to play the gig.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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Jazz school could be improved for sure. Improv is what needs to be taught more effectively. The gaps are numerous and wide. And then there is application to the guitar. It’s a lot of work to teach it and I think most educators and authors just want to skip big chunks.
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
you need to be able to play changes etc before college, really, anyway. College might be able to teach you that stuff, but it really shouldn’t have to.
Anyway, it’s ok, you learn these other lessons by playing gigs with more experienced players. Some again have done this before college. A lot of people I work with seem to have done this early.
This is the main reason of course why one might want to study in NY for example. A talented youngster will be formed by such environments.Last edited by Christian Miller; 05-29-2023 at 04:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
In any case - a being a journeyman has honour. ‘Civilians’ don’t get that kind of recognition in the eyes of other players. Being a pro is hard for reasons that have nothing to do with playing.
Beside which - I can’t really think of ‘journeyman’ being a bad thing? I don’t think I’m up to that level personally, and I’m not sure I’ll ever get there haha. It suggests the kind of experienced, solid, unflappable professionalism that I’d admire and aspire to tbh. Someone who can take care of business, turns up on time unfailingly, plays supportively for everyone, sight reads anything, knows a million tunes and is a great hang with no ego and lots of stories. You need people like that in the world and they are always working.
Not everyone can be the stars the kiddies at music college worship. Probably being a ‘jouneyman’ the sort of thing non musicians think musicians don’t want to be, when in fact many are happy being exactly that and it’s probably one of the most important character traits of being a jobbing musician - being one of the band.
you’ll find the same sort of thing in other professions.Last edited by Christian Miller; 05-29-2023 at 04:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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Originally Posted by ronjazz
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I learned a lot in college. Didn’t really make sense of it all until I moved to big music town and starting playing with lots of different people.
There was a place for both, in my case.
I was also a classical major with jazz on the side (on paper, though I probably spent more time with jazz in practice). I wouldn’t trade that classical education for anything, I don’t think. Then again I really needed all that education when I was eighteen. I was ………… to use the parlance of this thread, apparently ……… not anywhere close to the middle of the pack, at the time.
Certainly easy to knock jazz education — and lord knows, it needs knocking for sure — but I think I benefited from some jazz education at the time I got it.
Jazz Ed is an easy punching bag that usually deserves to be punched a bit, and I definitely benefited more from being in NY after I graduated, but there’s no way in hell I would’ve been able to tread water there if I hadn’t been schooled up a bit first.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by ronjazz
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I know this from experience: wiz kids out of school (and I mean wiz kids in a respectful way), versus a less schooled programmer with experience as part of a development team. Thus, the challenge for me as a director is in how to integrate individuals that bring in different skill sets and experience, into a cohesive team.
E.g. the wiz kid bring in some great new ideas, but they are only useful in specific context as it relates to the software being developed. It can be challenging to convince the wiz kid his idea isn't being used, in this case, not because it isn't a great idea, but because it isn't the best solution given the context.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I find myself echoing some of the sentiments above. But I'll add my bit anyway:
I have acquired two pro-level skill sets in my life: teaching (English) and freelance writing. Both were rooted in basic skills acquired in undergrad and grad school, and while I suppose I could have managed either one without my formal humanities education (the necessary certification of a doctorate to one side), I would have had to have been much smarter and more disciplined than I actually am to get there without the foundation of college and grad school. (FWIW, I never took an education or pedagogy course--or a writing course before I had to teach one.) I suspect getting to pro-level jazz-player status is not unlike that. Performing music (or teaching poetry or writing features) is a skill best developed in the doing--though you really need some fundamental idea of what you're doing before you get in front of an audience.
BTW, Marc--I recall hearing your playing at Djangofests years ago, and if that's "middle of the pack" work, I'm going to sell my guitars and go raise goats. (But if you're talking about money and fame and such, I get it.)
Actually, I should probably seriously consider goat-raising anyway--I hear they can really keep the grass short.
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Originally Posted by RLetson
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by RLetson
Please don't give up on jazz guitar. Back in 2007 when I did a couple of shows with Jazz guitar legend Larry Coryell (RIP), he imparted some sage advice. I mentioned that I was in awe of his playing and that playing with him was a bit intimidating to me. Larry replied that we are all climbing the same hill and that nobody gets to the top. He told me that cats like him get higher than most, but we should all strive to get as high on that hill as we can, as that is what it is all about.
Yep, sage advice indeed.
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Well that’s it really isn’t it?
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Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
Was there a jazz curriculum in 1910? Was there a college bebop curriculum in 1946? Was the Coltrane harmonic concept being taught before he created it?
we all know the answer: NO.
The other part: by the time a curriculum is able to be crafted for an idiom, the major creative energy of that idiom is largely spent. We can even trace this back to Miles and Coltrane et al, who all for years tried to make new instances of the modal half-tone modulation heard in So What.
So then. When I play Footprints with my band tomorrow, am I breaking new ground in jazz? When a teacher shows students ways to navigate that, is wild creativity occurring?
Don’t get me wrong. I love jazz and love playing it. And I’m teaching harmony to a few students, and we are all learning in the process. But is it dazzlingly creative stuff? The words of Zappa come to mind: jazz is not dead, but it smells funny. He said that decades ago.
Think I’ll go improvise over Rhythm Changes for awhile.
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