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  1. #1

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    I searched and could find no prior reference to this prodigy, Joshua Meader.


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    He’s been all over Instagram for a few years

  4. #3

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    Yes, I remember being amazed seeing him play John Coltrane's solo from Pursuance from A Love Supreme.

    Otherwise, yeah, he's great, been following him for a few years. Seems he's going on tour with Antoine Boyer soon.

    Here's an interview. The most interesting thing here is where he describes his technique, a combination of picking and slurs, not entirely economy picking but not strictly alternate either (off the top of my head) -


  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    He’s been all over Instagram for a few years
    That should be a new category of musician- Instagram Player
    Nice stuff, but does he exist outside of Instagram?

  6. #5

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    this was one of the best transcriptions ive ever heard, just unreal playing


  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    That should be a new category of musician- Instagram Player
    Nice stuff, but does he exist outside of Instagram?
    Well for some it seems to be the modern way to reach people. Sebastien Cornelisson certainly thought enough of him to hire him for his album
    The Sixteen Men Of Tain ft. Josh Meader | Sebastiaan Cornelissen

  8. #7

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    Memory and ears like an elephant!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    That should be a new category of musician- Instagram Player
    Nice stuff, but does he exist outside of Instagram?
    I’m not sure why this comes across as the way it does. Of course he exists outside of IG. But IG is merely how young players reach an audience today. It’s certainly more cost effective than recording an album and hoping it sells.

    His solo on Cherokee.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlD
    I’m not sure why this comes across as the way it does. Of course he exists outside of IG. But IG is merely how young players reach an audience today. It’s certainly more cost effective than recording an album and hoping it sells.

    His solo on Cherokee.
    That's the type of thing that people do online that I can't stand. He's using horrible backing tracks that give you no idea where he is in the form, he's rattling off ideas that just show off that he's got tremendous chops, but make no sense to me musically, he doesn't play the head or even give any reference to it. It sounds like a nightmare!
    Cherokee is a simple progression, why can't he find a way to record it with good backing tracks, so it sounds like music, and not someone puking all over you?
    People wonder why everybody hates jazz; that's one of the reasons why.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    That's the type of thing that people do online that I can't stand. He's using horrible backing tracks that give you no idea where he is in the form, he's rattling off ideas that just show off that he's got tremendous chops, but make no sense to me musically, he doesn't play the head or even give any reference to it. It sounds like a nightmare!
    Other people may differ. I hadn't heard that clip before, but on first listen, I could hear the backing tracks well enough and easily followed his ideas - but Mike Moreno's solo in another thread made complete sense to me too. I will freely admit that chops for chops' sake don't appeal to me, but his solo made sense musically.

    FYI, one reason not to play the head is to avoid copyright issues. Another reason is that if one can't follow his melodic ideas in his solo, the head wouldn't help anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Cherokee is a simple progression, why can't he find a way to record it with good backing tracks, so it sounds like music, and not someone puking all over you? People wonder why everybody hates jazz; that's one of the reasons why.
    Saying it sounds like "someone puking all over you" is a little over the top. I've never heard musical puking, but my experience is limited.

    But you're right, you as a jazz guitarist couldn't follow it, so it's reasonable to assume that many/most others without your musical background couldn't either. It's not for everyone, or most, or even a small minority of the population: but jazz guitar in general only appeals to a handful anyway.

    His audience appreciates speed and chops, which he has aplenty. Listen to some of his other material, you may find some melodic gems that you can appreciate...or not.

    I heard the clip as his announcement that he's not just a fast fusion player, but a legitimate jazz player too.

    He's good for jazz.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by P4guitar
    Other people may differ. I hadn't heard that clip before, but on first listen, I could hear the backing tracks well enough and easily followed his ideas - but Mike Moreno's solo in another thread made complete sense to me too. I will freely admit that chops for chops' sake don't appeal to me, but his solo made sense musically.

    FYI, one reason not to play the head is to avoid copyright issues. Another reason is that if one can't follow his melodic ideas in his solo, the head wouldn't help anyway.



    Saying it sounds like "someone puking all over you" is a little over the top. I've never heard musical puking, but my experience is limited.

    But you're right, you as a jazz guitarist couldn't follow it, so it's reasonable to assume that many/most others without your musical background couldn't either. It's not for everyone, or most, or even a small minority of the population: but jazz guitar in general only appeals to a handful anyway.

    His audience appreciates speed and chops, which he has aplenty. Listen to some of his other material, you may find some melodic gems that you can appreciate...or not.

    I heard the clip as his announcement that he's not just a fast fusion player, but a legitimate jazz player too.

    He's good for jazz.
    I listened to it again, and I can more or less hear where he's at in the form, but that doesn't mean I think it's good jazz playing.
    I play Cherokee everyday at 340bpm with backing tracks, and I'm at the point where I don't drop a beat and can play melodically off of it.
    This guy has no sense of phrasing; he just rattles off 16th notes without any melodic conception whatsoever.
    He's a great fusion player and technician, but it's like a circus show where he's trying to show how fast he can play without making any musical statements.And doesn't swing.
    He should stay with fusion, he's an incredible technician.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I listened to it again, and I can more or less hear where he's at in the form, but that doesn't mean I think it's good jazz playing.
    I play Cherokee everyday at 340bpm with backing tracks, and I'm at the point where I don't drop a beat and can play melodically off of it.
    This guy has no sense of phrasing; he just rattles off 16th notes without any melodic conception whatsoever.
    He's a great fusion player and technician, but it's like a circus show where he's trying to show how fast he can play without making any musical statements.And doesn't swing.
    He should stay with fusion, he's an incredible technician.
    Chops deluxe (no, I can't play that fast) but imo that was really boring.
    Must....learn.....to.....breathe.....before you can swing. It all just ran together w no direction or purpose, whew
    Or maybe he just a fusion dude that doesn't want to swing or maybe just can't
    But in fairness I haven't listened to any of his other stuff, is it more musical?
    Some cats mellow out over time, Jimmy Bruno comes to mind, but even early on when he was blazing he was always interesting and swung his ass off, I was blown away every time I saw him

  14. #13

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    Now this young man is blazing but swingin!!


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    That's the type of thing that people do online that I can't stand. He's using horrible backing tracks that give you no idea where he is in the form, he's rattling off ideas that just show off that he's got tremendous chops, but make no sense to me musically, he doesn't play the head or even give any reference to it. It sounds like a nightmare!
    Cherokee is a simple progression, why can't he find a way to record it with good backing tracks, so it sounds like music, and not someone puking all over you?
    People wonder why everybody hates jazz; that's one of the reasons why.


    Firstly, I struggle to grasp how you can not grasp where he is in the form from the backing track given it plays the actual chords of the tune. Secondly, yes, he rattles off ideas demonstrating his tremendous chops because - shock horror - Cherokee is an up tempo tune! It's always been a vehicle for jazz musicians to show off their chops - to make this criticism is utterly risible.

    Thirdly, your comments 'sounds like a nightmare' or 'puking all over you'. These are hysterical to say the least and the second one is objectively false.

    Lastly, the fact that you make objectively false and hysterical comments just begs the question about your own playing (and your own ears). And frankly, they sour the atmosphere of the forum, where there are many people just trying to get it together. I mean, you could just leave a comment saying 'this is not my cup of tea' but to make more malicious comments says far more about you than the musician they're about.

  16. #15

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    He’s amazing.

    I do think the Instagram thing should be taken with a pinch of salt, because people spend so much time splicing together the perfect take and then miming along.
    Assume this has been done unless it’s candid phone footage and everyone does it to a greater or lesser degree. Even for very good players it represents a type of hot house perfection and it’s worth bearing that in mind. You can also assume that the musician is playing something composed note for note.

    It’s like a photoshopped model. Unattainable perfection maybe; although that doesn’t mean that players couldn’t cut it live, or that the model isn’t beautiful etc.

    From what I hear, people often do tons of takes…

    I’m not being judgemental btw - I’ve kind of done this a bit myself very occasionally. I know how it’s done and if you want something with a high level of perfection it’s the way to go. It does not imo have much to do with jazz, however. You need to be able to play in the moment too.

    But you have the same stuff in the non-social media jazz world with recordings and so on. everyone I know edits stuff on albums, too, including me. I try not to do it too much other than to tidy arrangements, but the temptation is always there. Metheny is quite notorious for splicing together takes on solos and he’s obviously a legit live player to say the least.

    Metheny levels of anality aside, in general saves time in the studio, and an album is a different thing to a live performance. Generally for jazzers studio time is limited and you want to be able to use the first or second take which is usually pretty good but maybe with a couple of minor issues that no one would even notice live but tend to jump out on related listens…

    the worst thing is when you look through your own Instagram history and think, I’m pretty good! Forgetting how many takes you did and the ‘tidying up’ you may have done in post.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-29-2023 at 04:58 AM.

  17. #16

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    Yeah, the editing thing goes back at least as far as Miles's Round About Midnight album. I tend to assume I could spot when it occurs though, especially in a video, and I've never spotted it in any of Meader's videos e.g. the one of him playing the Coltrane solo, but that could just be some technical trickery, who knows.

    I think it goes without saying that multiple takes are a thing, certainly for my modest efforts! I'm a bit of a luddite though and wouldn't know what equipment I'd need to acquire for editing etc even if I could afford it...

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by James W
    Yeah, the editing thing goes back at least as far as Miles's Round About Midnight album. I tend to assume I could spot when it occurs though, especially in a video, and I've never spotted it in any of Meader's videos e.g. the one of him playing the Coltrane solo, but that could just be some technical trickery, who knows.

    I think it goes without saying that multiple takes are a thing, certainly for my modest efforts! I'm a bit of a luddite though and wouldn't know what equipment I'd need to acquire for editing etc even if I could afford it...
    No you wouldn’t spot the edit, because the video isn’t spliced.

    How it works: if you are playing something composed you just do a bunch of audio only takes and maybe one or two video takes. You then synch the video up to the spliced together take which is easy if you are recording to click, which of course you are if you are one of these Instagram virtuosos lol.

    Even if you make some mistakes or play a bit scrappy in the video take, you won’t notice when they’re synched, the playing will look good enough. You might not even have the guitar plugged in. You can focus on how it looks, make sure the camera and lighting is right etc.

    Then do the audio only takes, which aside from being easy to edit, means you can focus on the playing without worrying about the camera etc. you then edit together the final track from the best bits. DAW tools are very good at making seamless audio edits.

    All you need is Logic and Quicktime or the equivalent, in fact, not even a video editing package, although that will help.

    (crazy thing is this is the way dialogue was recorded for movies in most cases - not sure if it’s still the way - actors record their dialogue twice. Once on set and dubbed over months later in a proper studio.)

    Sounds complicated but it’s way less trouble than doing 50 takes and putting pressure on yourself to do a perfect one only to find the camera moved or something (the likelihood of nailing is seems to go down over time too.) ideally we’d all have everything practiced to the point of not screwing up, but in practice this is just a quick and effective way to do it.

    so long as we don’t think we’ve actually mastered the thing we recorded. We have to be honest with ourselves and recording is actually great for that. But I think the splicing it together thing is dangerous if that’s all you do.

    obviously doesn’t work for improv.

    Some dishonest instagrammers use some of the more advanced tools on DAWs to doctor their playing. You can usually spot these if you are an experienced guitarist tho haha.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-29-2023 at 06:32 AM.

  19. #18

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    To do transcriptions you can use logic for that too. It’s pretty amazing really (the hardest thing is turning the notation into tab)

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    No you wouldn’t spot the edit, because the video isn’t spliced.

    How it works: if you are playing something composed you just do a bunch of audio only takes and maybe one or two video takes. You then synch the video up to the spliced together take which is easy if you are recording to click, which of course you are if you are one of these Instagram virtuosos lol.

    Even if you make some mistakes or play a bit scrappy in the video take, you won’t notice when they’re synched, the playing will look good enough. You might not even have the guitar plugged in. You can focus on how it looks, make sure the camera and lighting is right etc.

    Then do the audio only takes, which aside from being easy to edit, means you can focus on the playing without worrying about the camera etc. you then edit together the final track from the best bits. DAW tools are very good at making seamless audio edits.

    All you need is Logic and Quicktime or the equivalent, in fact, not even a video editing package, although that will help.

    (crazy thing is this is the way dialogue was recorded for movies in most cases - not sure if it’s still the way - actors record their dialogue twice. Once on set and dubbed over months later in a proper studio.)

    Sounds complicated but it’s way less trouble than doing 50 takes and putting pressure on yourself to do a perfect one only to find the camera moved or something (the likelihood of nailing is seems to go down over time too.) ideally we’d all have everything practiced to the point of not screwing up, but in practice this is just a quick and effective way to do it.

    so long as we don’t think we’ve actually mastered the thing we recorded. We have to be honest with ourselves and recording is actually great for that. But I think the splicing it together thing is dangerous if that’s all you do.

    obviously doesn’t work for improv.

    Some dishonest instagrammers use some of the more advanced tools on DAWs to doctor their playing. You can usually spot these if you are an experienced guitarist tho haha.
    Thank you for this knowledge. Very appreciated. "Grand" actually.

    As for meaders playing it is like malmsteen to me, technically excellent, amazing at first, but monospeed soloing isn't real interesting to me and others in the long haul. I also doubt people dance at his gigs. Someone above said you have to learn to breathe to swing. I would admit it is true, to my own demerit. Meader is young tho, of course he is gonna burn. Like Kingfish. Meader wlill mellow out as he ages and get even better. I hope he has fair winds in his adventures.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    He’s amazing.

    I do think the Instagram thing should be taken with a pinch of salt, because people spend so much time splicing together the perfect take and then miming along.
    Assume this has been done unless it’s candid phone footage and everyone does it to a greater or lesser degree. Even for very good players it represents a type of hot house perfection and it’s worth bearing that in mind. You can also assume that the musician is playing something composed note for note.

    It’s like a photoshopped model. Unattainable perfection maybe; although that doesn’t mean that players couldn’t cut it live, or that the model isn’t beautiful etc.

    From what I hear, people often do tons of takes…

    I’m not being judgemental btw - I’ve kind of done this a bit myself very occasionally. I know how it’s done and if you want something with a high level of perfection it’s the way to go. It does not imo have much to do with jazz, however. You need to be able to play in the moment too.

    But you have the same stuff in the non-social media jazz world with recordings and so on. everyone I know edits stuff on albums, too, including me. I try not to do it too much other than to tidy arrangements, but the temptation is always there. Metheny is quite notorious for splicing together takes on solos and he’s obviously a legit live player to say the least.

    Metheny levels of anality aside, in general saves time in the studio, and an album is a different thing to a live performance. Generally for jazzers studio time is limited and you want to be able to use the first or second take which is usually pretty good but maybe with a couple of minor issues that no one would even notice live but tend to jump out on related listens…

    the worst thing is when you look through your own Instagram history and think, I’m pretty good! Forgetting how many takes you did and the ‘tidying up’ you may have done in post.
    When Jim Hall heard the final release of the album he did with Metheny, he was disgusted by it, calling it a "Frankenstein Monster".
    Hall said Metheny did so much editing of the recording session, that it didn't sound anything like what went on in the studio.

    Hall listened to the record that one time, and never listened to it again.
    In Gary Burton's autobiography, "Learning to Listen", he said that Metheny would stay in the studio after a session was finished, and do 'little fixes' on all his solos.
    Lee Konitz claimed that none of the current players improvise anymore, in the book of interviews with him. That's probably why he used a real jazz musician like Peter Bernstein on his last albums. At least he could be sure that he was improvising.

    Jim Snidero said in an interview on WKCR that the real secret to jazz was that the top players didn't improvise.
    To prove his statement, he said that he had access to the tapes of the Miles Davis Quintet with John Coltrane, with all the out takes. He said the solos on the out takes were practically identical to the solos on the albums.
    Miles himself fired Pepper Adams, because Pepper used to play Miles solos note for note along with him on gigs down an octave, because the 'great' Miles Davis used to play the exact same solos every night on their gigs at clubs.

    Now we have Instagram Jazz, using the process you described above. Heaven help us!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    When Jim Hall heard the final release of the album he did with Metheny, he was disgusted by it, calling it a "Frankenstein Monster".
    Hall said Metheny did so much editing of the recording session, that it didn't sound anything like what went on in the studio.

    Hall listened to the record that one time, and never listened to it again.
    In Gary Burton's autobiography, "Learning to Listen", he said that Metheny would stay in the studio after a session was finished, and do 'little fixes' on all his solos.
    Lee Konitz claimed that none of the current players improvise anymore, in the book of interviews with him. That's probably why he used a real jazz musician like Peter Bernstein on his last albums. At least he could be sure that he was improvising.

    Jim Snidero said in an interview on WKCR that the real secret to jazz was that the top players didn't improvise.
    To prove his statement, he said that he had access to the tapes of the Miles Davis Quintet with John Coltrane, with all the out takes. He said the solos on the out takes were practically identical to the solos on the albums.
    Miles himself fired Pepper Adams, because Pepper used to play Miles solos note for note along with him on gigs down an octave, because the 'great' Miles Davis used to play the exact same solos every night on their gigs at clubs.

    Now we have Instagram Jazz, using the process you described above. Heaven help us!
    Jim Snidero would do well to check out the several or more volumes of the Miles Davis bootleg boxed sets. The evidence that him and his bands improvised is there, among other places. Seems like major traducement of a jazz musician nonpareil.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    Jim Snidero said in an interview on WKCR that the real secret to jazz was that the top players didn't improvise...
    You've made this same claim on other forums over the past year or so. I don't believe that's what he said and when I inquired, you couldn't provide a link to your source. So, I did some research of my own and found this recent Snidero interview in which he said:

    "There’s often a misunderstanding when it comes to jazz improvisation, that somehow you’re making it all up as you’re going along out of thin air. I am part of a tradition established by the greatest jazz improvisors - Bird, Miles, Coltrane, Rollins, etc … - which is that there is plenty of pre-conceived material that is used when improvising. You hear it time and again on recordings of jazz greats, the same language on multiple recordings. The trick is to be in the moment, listen, react, and most importantly, be musical.

    There will be times that you play something that you’ve played many times before, times when you’re playing variations of things you’ve played before, and times when you play something entirely new. It’s about how you put it together and how in the moment you are when improvising."

    I hope you'll agree that this statement is not the same as "the top players didn't improvise".

  24. #23

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    Does anyone enjoy Cherokee at 330 bpm against a backing track as music, rather than as wow? Would anyone prefer it to Cherokee at a sensible speed with the NBC Orchestra?



  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzshrink
    You've made this same claim on other forums over the past year or so. I don't believe that's what he said and when I inquired, you couldn't provide a link to your source. So, I did some research of my own and found this recent Snidero interview in which he said:

    "There’s often a misunderstanding when it comes to jazz improvisation, that somehow you’re making it all up as you’re going along out of thin air. I am part of a tradition established by the greatest jazz improvisors - Bird, Miles, Coltrane, Rollins, etc … - which is that there is plenty of pre-conceived material that is used when improvising. You hear it time and again on recordings of jazz greats, the same language on multiple recordings. The trick is to be in the moment, listen, react, and most importantly, be musical.

    There will be times that you play something that you’ve played many times before, times when you’re playing variations of things you’ve played before, and times when you play something entirely new. It’s about how you put it together and how in the moment you are when improvising."

    I hope you'll agree that this statement is not the same as "the top players didn't improvise".
    That's not what he said in the interview. He said that they played the exact same things that they played on the out takes. He called it the "great secret about jazz improvisation". He was only referring to the Miles Davis group with Trane at the time.
    What you[re saying sounds more reasonable.