Holdsworth mofos

[Litterick]

Thank you, but I know his work. My concern is that I am not so enthused by it. His choice of tone does not help.

[Doctor Jeff]

Well, as I said he is sui generis. If your taste runs toward traditional players with traditional tone like Kenny Burrell and Joe Pass, you probably won’t like Holdsworth.

I don’t even necessarily consider him a jazz player. (Or a rock player for that matter.) He is just too outside the standard jazz language, IMO.

I find him a bit hard to take in heavy doses these days, as my tastes have changed. I go a long time without listening to him, then binge on some Holdsworth and remember why I liked him so much years ago.

[Litterick]

My taste runs away from traditional players and traditional tone. Too many notes and too much legato might be the issue, and a tone that reminds me of kitchen appliances. Maybe he is too eighties for me.

Are Holdsworth Mofos akin to Sleaford Mods?

[Christian Miller]

Who is Luke? Steve Lukather?

yes

There are a lot of parallels between Scofield and Holdsworth in that they have a distinct style and have played with a lot of people.

Of course Scofield was lucky enough to start out playing with Miles, which traditionally has guaranteed success in the jazz world. His solo work for the most part is more mainline, and the themes of a lot of his recent work is very accessible—Ray Charles, gospel, country. He brings in singers a lot like John Mayer and Dr. John, who also bring in their audience.

I’m not trying to be too hard on Holdsworth. I recall reading there were financial issues toward the end of his life. (Actually a Google search shows dozens of threads about this, even an appeal by his daughter for financial support. A FundMe pledge was used to pay for his funeral.)

I think a lot of it had to do with his interest in tech and investing in a lot of gear that didn’t bring a financial reward. Probably a poor financial manager. He has talked a lot about not being able to make get gigs in England, therefore having to play in the States. (I seem to recall there might have been an expensive divorce, maybe I’m wrong. I know all about that one…)

I think the problem with being an extreme virtuoso is that that’s how you get pigeonholed. Unless you’re lucky and a genius at marketing yourself, like Satriani and Steve Vai, you end up with a couple hundred people at your shows in the bigger cities not thousands.



Maybe Steve Vai or Adrian Belew were free that weekend?

This was in the UK and very short notice so I doubt that would have been practical or affordable. I’m sure Vai would probably have been in there like a shot schedule permitting, he’s a bit of contemporary classical music buff.

They would probably have called John Parricelli first who plays guitar on loads of Hollywood film soundtracks as well as being a jazzer and a Kenny Wheeler big band mainstay and general ‘read anything and play anything that goes twang’ guy (he was in the onstage band for Turnages opera Anna Nichol at the Royal Opera with Erskine and John Paul Jones (!) - JPJ is another contemporary classical music buff, so I’m suspect he did it for union rates.)

I think they ended up getting a classical guy with an electric guitar, the sort of person who plays this sort of stuff:

But in general London has historically had a reputation for high level sight reading so I don’t think anyone needs to fly musicians out from LA to read a chart. In fact, LA often came here when they want to record music with minimal rehearsal overheads, although that seems to be changing a bit. Probably innovations in how film scores and pop records are put together has changed things…

actually I remember hearing perhaps wrongly that Belew learned the Zappa stuff by ear. Will need to check that. EDIT: I may be confusing him with Mike Keneally, another Zappa alum…

Adrian has played with a lot of people, and lately has been playing a lot of tribute shows showcasing music of Talking Heads and David Bowie. Of course he played with both.

Yeah Talking heads live in Rome is a Belew-o-Rama. Don’t know the stuff he did with Bowie.

[Christian Miller]

Well, as I said he is sui generis. If your taste runs toward traditional players with traditional tone like Kenny Burrell and Joe Pass, you probably won’t like Holdsworth.

I don’t even necessarily consider him a jazz player. (Or a rock player for that matter.) He is just too outside the standard jazz language, IMO.

I find him a bit hard to take in heavy doses these days, as my tastes have changed. I go a long time without listening to him, then binge on some Holdsworth and remember why I liked him so much years ago.

Sixteen men of tain reveals that Allan swings… it’s a shame to me that he so often chose not to. Definitely a jazzer, among other things. Not sure about his recording of Nuages tho haha.

[James W]

Sixteen men of tain reveals that Allan swings… it’s a shame to me that he so often chose not to. Definitely a jazzer, among other things. Not sure about his recording of Nuages tho haha.

Also 'None Too Soon', his 'standards' album, swings. But I hear his playing in general as having swing of sorts, though in fusion I guess one can talk more about groove - the semiquavers aren't played straight. I guess in fusion rhythmic vitality is created by the mix of swung and straight rhythms. I'd say the main difference between the fusion and more straight-ahead in Allan's work (and perhaps in general) is what the rhythm section is doing.

[Christian Miller]

Also 'None Too Soon', his 'standards' album, swings. But I hear his playing in general as having swing of sorts, though in fusion I guess one can talk more about groove - the semiquavers aren't played straight. I guess in fusion rhythmic vitality is created by the mix of swung and straight rhythms. I'd say the main difference between the fusion and more straight-ahead in Allan's work (and perhaps in general) is what the rhythm section is doing.

Listen to the way he places his eighth notes in 16 men, the pocket. His feel reminds me a little of Jimmy Raney, a big influence on him apparently.

Swing is not about inequality necessarily, and actually quite rarely with jazz guitar players. So it’s not just the rhythm section (which I infinitely prefer on 16 men to None to Soon where it sounds very punched in and the electric bass doesn’t help) but also how Allan situates his playing within.

[James W]

Listen to the way he places his eighth notes in 16 men, the pocket. His feel reminds me a little of Jimmy Raney, a big influence on him apparently.

Swing is not about inequality necessarily, and actually quite rarely with jazz guitar players. So it’s not just the rhythm section (which I infinitely prefer on 16 men to None to Soon where it sounds very punched in and the electric bass doesn’t help) but also how Allan situates his playing within.

Yes, I agree that Allan's touch on The Sixteen Men... (both tune and album) is quite exquisite both from a rhythmical and tonal perspective (and every other perspective).

And yes, the swing is more like a triplet with the middle note left out.

[Christian Miller]

And yes, the swing is more like a triplet with the middle note left out.

Not really. That’s truer of the ride cymbal than the soloists eight notes.

Listen to 2:22 for example.

Allan is doing a classic thing here which is playing mostly quite straight but laying back while accenting the upbeats. Have a listen on half speed.

The upbeats lock with the drummers ride cymbal which is classic straight and late swing feel. You can’t lock into the downbeats because that won’t swing; you lock into the ‘ands’ and let the downbeats fall late - at least for lines like this that accent the upbeats; then you can swing while playing straight and even.

im not sure Allan’s technique would easily allow him a swing inequality. Actually that’s true for most guitarists; it’s rare to find a guitarist with a pronounced upbeat/downbeat inequality like you find with Wynton Kelly for instance. In fact I can’t think of an example off the top of my head aside from maybe sometimes Django and Charlie Christian

[P.J.]

My wife generally is not into Holdsworth but does not mind the Gordon Beck music with a clean tone.

[GuyBoden]

If you are really interested in Allan Holdsworth's playing, this 5 hour video and many others on his Youtube site gives great insight.

[Christian Miller]

If you are really interested in Allan Holdsworth's playing, this 5 hour video and many others on his Youtube site gives great insight.

watched it m8. Liked it! Though it is from a very shred/mechanics perspective… but that is tbf kind of how Allan played.

[GuyBoden]

watched it m8. Liked it! Though it is from a very shred/mechanics perspective… but that is tbf kind of how Allan played.

I prefer Allan Holdsworth's harmony, chord voicings in his own compositions.

John Vullo's book of Allan Holdsworth chords is good, same author as the youtube video.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secrets-Cho.../dp/B08CRH9QTF

[jbear]

For anyone who liked Alan's work with Jean-luc Ponty, the album Individual Choice features him on two tracks: Nostalgia and In Spite of All, and he is brilliant on both. Also The Altacama Experience has Alan on one track.
As far as like his playing/tone/style...whatever...it's art...you don't try to make yourself (or anyone else) like a particular piece of art. If it speaks to you...great. If not...then not. Same with creating it...the only person that has to like it is you. If someone else does like it...bonus.

[Blackguard53]

I'll repeat myself and say that it was Allan Holdsworth's harmony and chord voicings that got me into his music, but most players are blinded and only see his astonishing legato technique.

Moving complex chords up and down the fretboard through a scale was a thing I took from his tutorial video years back, I find it a great way to find new ideas. Example below:


His live Ambient sounds like "Above and Below" were other worldly.

I prefer his later Albums, like "Sixteen men of Tain", which is incredible.

I found that Allan Holdsworth's chord voicings used a lot of 9ths and fifth intervals, not a lot of thirds.

Same, I love his lead sound and style, but it's his chords, comping and composition that is really unparalleled. He should be remembered as a 21st century virtuoso composer that was ahead of his time in the long run.

[jim777]

Late to the party, but I always loved Road Games...