Holdsworth mofos

[Cunamara]

Even when you closely watch Holdsworth playing it is baffling. McLaughlin allegedly told him "I'd steal all your stuff if I had the slightest idea what you're doing."

I just happened to see one of those "guitar teacher reacts" videos looking at an AH performance and after a few seconds fessed up that he had no idea. But he did make an interesting observation about some of Holdsworth's expanded 4-note-per-string scale forms which would inevitably have multiple duplicated notes and wondering why one would do this. Good question; I think it is to facilitate legato playing. Allan seems to use his index finger as a moveable capo and uses the others for hammer-ons and pulloffs.

[Bobby Timmons]

I understand what he's doing. He basically invented a functional melodic playing style where the majority of his language is chromatic and altered. Rather than the commonplace approach of having most of one's playing be consonant and diatonic with chromatic and altered stuff added for color.

[Alter]

It's just physically very difficult to do. He had very long fingers, and extreme flexibility, due to playing with stretches all the time, and playing these super complex chords. Most players would find playing this way tiring.

I mean, if you watch his instructional tape, he talks and explains while casually playing these chords that noone else can reach .. makes me laugh every time!

[Litterick]

It is all in the booklet:

Messiaen's modes of limited transposition come to mind.

[Litterick]

I will watch the fusion video again, as soon as I have finished reading the McDonnell Douglas DC-10 Flight Crew Operating Manual. I expect the video will be the more difficult of the two.

[grahambop]

I’ve posted this before, might be of interest. A 1974 interview with Allan from the UK ‘Guitar’ magazine. (He is shown playing a 175!)

[Christian Miller]

I will watch the fusion video again, as soon as I have finished reading the McDonnell Douglas DC-10 Flight Crew Operating Manual. I expect the video will be the more difficult of the two.

i was actually surprised at how commonplace the info was, and how much overlap there is with other stuff. The only scale I don’t really use already is the melodic minor #4…

Weirdly he has most of the Barry harris scales too.

Scales are scales I guess.

[Christian Miller]

Apparently a lot of Allan’s stuff is idiomatic to the three notes a string fingerings where he doesn’t avoid the doubling between the G and B strings, and then skipping around and sliding.

As you go up the neck you stretch more and that gives you more options.

[Vihar]

I understand what he's doing. He basically invented a functional melodic playing style where the majority of his language is chromatic and altered. Rather than the commonplace approach of having most of one's playing be consonant and diatonic with chromatic and altered stuff added for color.

Summed up nicely.

It was also something rather comfortable for him to play physically, tailored for his hand size/finger lengths and the light gauges he usually played, including lots of symmetrical fingering patterns that got repeated across strings. I mean, after that many years it came to him automatically, so when he just demo'd a guitar or amp in an interview, his "noodling" was still exactly the same idiosyncratic playing style.

[Litterick]

Not as difficult as the DC-10 manual, after all. His noodling is how he understands the fretboard.

[Christian Miller]

Summed up nicely.

It was also something rather comfortable for him to play physically, tailored for his hand size/finger lengths and the light gauges he usually played, including lots of symmetrical fingering patterns that got repeated across strings. I mean, after that many years it came to him automatically, so when he just demo'd a guitar or amp in an interview, his "noodling" was still exactly the same idiosyncratic playing style.

yeah idiosyncratic is a good word

As the level 42 story shows he was never interested in being a do it all guy. You can imagine someone like Guthrie (who often gets compared, inaccurately imo, to Allan) being the kind of great all round player they needed with killer lead chops. But, Allan had no interest in that.

(That said I had no problem with Allan’s rhythm playing on the level 42 track if that was indeed him.)

Looking at the history of guitar it seems to me electric players - rock and fusion players specifically since the 80s - are in general are becoming less idiosyncratic and more generic (and Allan’s approach is part of the mix for many) but on the flip side much more versatile. I suspect this may have something to guitar teachers giving the not unreasonable advice that players should round themselves out with lots of skills to get gigs.

That’s why someone like Tim Henson is refreshing.

I rather unfairly think of Lukather as the patron saint of this tendency; excellent but generic. Of course, the main reason why I think of him as generic is the same reason I think of Brecker as having a generic sax sound - which is it was him on all the records! So completely unfair lol. But then that becomes the sort of platonic ideal of how an instrument sounds for a generation.

In jazz I think there’s still more room to be your own voice, but that’s such a marginal area of music audience-wise.

[Vihar]

Not as difficult as the DC-10 manual, after all. His noodling is how he understands the fretboard.

Wait, I thought everyone learned that way.

[Vihar]

Reb Beach taps a mean Holdsworth in "Headed For A Heartbreak".

[Doctor Jeff]

Not as difficult as the DC-10 manual, after all. His noodling is how he understands the fretboard.

Might be more difficult than the Krebs cycle though.

yeah idiosyncratic is a good word

As the level 42 story shows he was never interested in being a do it all guy. You can imagine someone like Guthrie (who often gets compared, inaccurately imo, to Allan) being the kind of great all round player they needed with killer lead chops. But, Allan had no interest in that.

(That said I had no problem with Allan’s rhythm playing on the level 42 track if that was indeed him.)

Looking at the history of guitar it seems to me electric players - rock and fusion players specifically since the 80s - are in general are becoming less idiosyncratic and more generic (and Allan’s approach is part of the mix for many) but on the flip side much more versatile. I suspect this may have something to guitar teachers giving the not unreasonable advice that players should round themselves out with lots of skills to get gigs.

That’s why someone like Tim Henson is refreshing.

I rather unfairly think of Lukather as the patron saint of this tendency; excellent but generic. Of course, the main reason why I think of him as generic is the same reason I think of Brecker as having a generic sax sound - which is it was him on all the records! So completely unfair lol. But then that becomes the sort of platonic ideal of how an instrument sounds for a generation.

In jazz I think there’s still more room to be your own voice, but that’s such a marginal area of music audience-wise.

I totally agree. On the Ponty album mentioned above Stuermer seems to play all the rhythm parts. I'm not a Holdsworth expert, but he doesn't seem much interested in rhythm playing.

His style and his "lack of versatility" is a big reason that he was not more successful. Well, and the fact he doesn't sing. It's hard for a guitarist to make a living if he doesn't sing or belong to a big-time band. Jimmy Page practically retired after Led Zepp (yes I'm aware of his post-Zepp work). Danny Gatton, one of the best guitar players who ever lived, committed suicide. Steve Morse left music for awhile to become an airline pilot.

OTOH Scofield is a great example of someone with chops but whose versatility and willingness to play in all genres is legendary.

[Vihar]

Well, and the fact he doesn't sing. It's hard for a guitarist to make a living if he doesn't sing or belong to a big-time band.
OTOH Scofield is a great example of someone with chops but whose versatility and willingness to play in all genres is legendary.

Yeah man, Scofield is a helluva crooner and is the epitome of Top 10 rock band guitarist.

[James W]

I'm not a Holdsworth expert, but he doesn't seem much interested in rhythm playing.

Allan's comping is beautiful. I'm no Holdsworth expert, I just have spent many hours listening to his music - if I were you I would check out 'Low Levels High Stakes' which I posted previously on this thread.

I guess those ethereal chords might go unnoticed by some, but not me.

I guess this isn't 'rhythm guitar' in the sense of funky strumming or something... Obviously that's a choice on Allan's behalf.

[Doctor Jeff]

Yeah man, Scofield is a helluva crooner and is the epitome of Top 10 rock band guitarist.

Hmmm...

Well he does play with a lot of rockers such as Warren Haynes. He has branched out into the jam band arena, which IMO is a very lucrative area to be in if you're a touring guitarist. I've never heard him sing though.

Allan's comping is beautiful. I'm no Holdsworth expert, I just have spent many hours listening to his music - if I were you I would check out 'Low Levels High Stakes' which I posted previously on this thread.

I guess those ethereal chords might go unnoticed by some, but not me.

I guess this isn't 'rhythm guitar' in the sense of funky strumming or something... Obviously that's a choice on Allan's behalf.

Yeah, I wouldn't say he doesn't "comp", but he doesn't seem to do the Bucky Pizarelli thing as far as I know. His type of guitar accompaniment is reminiscent of David Torn, another guy who doesn't really play straight ahead.

[Christian Miller]

Might be more difficult than the Krebs cycle though.



I totally agree. On the Ponty album mentioned above Stuermer seems to play all the rhythm parts. I'm not a Holdsworth expert, but he doesn't seem much interested in rhythm playing.

His style and his "lack of versatility" is a big reason that he was not more successful. Well, and the fact he doesn't sing. It's hard for a guitarist to make a living if he doesn't sing or belong to a big-time band. Jimmy Page practically retired after Led Zepp (yes I'm aware of his post-Zepp work). Danny Gatton, one of the best guitar players who ever lived, committed suicide. Steve Morse left music for awhile to become an airline pilot.

OTOH Scofield is a great example of someone with chops but whose versatility and willingness to play in all genres is legendary.

I don’t actually think of Sco as being versatile, actually - in the sense of ‘I can do all these different kinds of guitar playing.’ I think of him as a unique stylist and sensitive musician whose playing lends itself to a variety of different settings, much like Bill Frisell. He is very also good at hiring rhythm sections that complement his playing. When he wants a great rhythm guitarist he hires one. He knows his strengths.

I actually think this is true of Allan, but Allan was mostly interested in doing his thing.

But when you hear Allan in straight up jazz rock group like the Lifetime or with Ponty, acoustic, pop/rock like level 42 or with a prog metal band or something, it always sounds great and it always sounds like him. (Ok sometimes it really doesn’t work, but he went through some ropey patches as a player too.)

I don’t think ‘lack of versatility’ has much to do with big leagues success tbh, but I do think being a versatile player helps you stay in bread and butter gigs; really reading and rhythm guitar… like Luke I guess. Allan did neither lol. But that stuff is probably more true for the session and theatre world and that’s hard to break into even if you have the skills.

[Christian Miller]

Actually that reminds me - a few years back back Sco was doing an orchestral project with the contemporary composer Mark Anthony Turnage. The project consists of some pretty advanced arrangements and recompositions of Sco’s tunes from things like Pick Hits Live juxtaposed with a live trio (Sco, Patitucci and Erskine iirc) playing the tunes in their original forms.

(If you don’t know it, you can find the recording on the album Scorched under Turnages name.)

Anyway, they were expecting Sco to take the guitar part on the orchestral sections. Sco took one look at the parts and said ‘I’m not playing that shit’ or words to that effect.

a call was made… someone was found to be the ‘stunt guitarist.’

[Litterick]

Steve Morse left music for awhile to become an airline pilot.

Perhaps Morse could help me with the DC-10 manual.

[Vihar]

Perhaps Morse could help me with the DC-10 manual.

-.. -.-. -....- .---- ----- / -- .- -. ..- .- .-..

[Doctor Jeff]

I don’t actually think of Sco as being versatile, actually - in the sense of ‘I can do all these different kinds of guitar playing.’ I think of him as a unique stylist and sensitive musician whose playing lends itself to a variety of different settings, much like Bill Frisell. He is very also good at hiring rhythm sections that complement his playing. When he wants a great rhythm guitarist he hires one. He knows his strengths.

I actually think this is true of Allan, but Allan was mostly interested in doing his thing.

But when you hear Allan in straight up jazz rock group like the Lifetime or with Ponty, acoustic, pop/rock like level 42 or with a prog metal band or something, it always sounds great and it always sounds like him. (Ok sometimes it really doesn’t work, but he went through some ropey patches as a player too.)

I don’t think ‘lack of versatility’ has much to do with big leagues success tbh, but I do think being a versatile player helps you stay in bread and butter gigs; really reading and rhythm guitar… like Luke I guess. Allan did neither lol. But that stuff is probably more true for the session and theatre world and that’s hard to break into even if you have the skills.

Who is Luke? Steve Lukather?

There are a lot of parallels between Scofield and Holdsworth in that they have a distinct style and have played with a lot of people.

Of course Scofield was lucky enough to start out playing with Miles, which traditionally has guaranteed success in the jazz world. His solo work for the most part is more mainline, and the themes of a lot of his recent work is very accessible—Ray Charles, gospel, country. He brings in singers a lot like John Mayer and Dr. John, who also bring in their audience.

I’m not trying to be too hard on Holdsworth. I recall reading there were financial issues toward the end of his life. (Actually a Google search shows dozens of threads about this, even an appeal by his daughter for financial support. A FundMe pledge was used to pay for his funeral.)

I think a lot of it had to do with his interest in tech and investing in a lot of gear that didn’t bring a financial reward. Probably a poor financial manager. He has talked a lot about not being able to make get gigs in England, therefore having to play in the States. (I seem to recall there might have been an expensive divorce, maybe I’m wrong. I know all about that one…)

I think the problem with being an extreme virtuoso is that that’s how you get pigeonholed. Unless you’re lucky and a genius at marketing yourself, like Satriani and Steve Vai, you end up with a couple hundred people at your shows in the bigger cities not thousands.

Actually that reminds me - a few years back back Sco was doing an orchestral project with the contemporary composer Mark Anthony Turnage. The project consists of some pretty advanced arrangements and recompositions of Sco’s tunes from things like Pick Hits Live juxtaposed with a live trio (Sco, Patitucci and Erskine iirc) playing the tunes in their original forms.

(If you don’t know it, you can find the recording on the album Scorched under Turnages name.)

Anyway, they were expecting Sco to take the guitar part on the orchestral sections. Sco took one look at the parts and said ‘I’m not playing that shit’ or words to that effect.

a call was made… someone was found to be the ‘stunt guitarist.’

Maybe Steve Vai or Adrian Belew were free that weekend?

Adrian has played with a lot of people, and lately has been playing a lot of tribute shows showcasing music of Talking Heads and David Bowie. Of course he played with both.

[Alter]

I think he was very dedicated and he didn't compromise. I'm sure he could easily get a teaching career to solve his financial problems, but he was always into playing.

I've read a Van Halen interview where Eddie talked about how he wanted to produce a Holdsworth album, and help him reach a broader audience, but then Holdsworth didn't wait and did the album himself (Eddie had months of touring schedule..

[GuyBoden]

I'll repeat myself and say that it was Allan Holdsworth's harmony and chord voicings that got me into his music, but most players are blinded and only see his astonishing legato technique.

Moving complex chords up and down the fretboard through a scale was a thing I took from his tutorial video years back, I find it a great way to find new ideas. Example below:


His live Ambient sounds like "Above and Below" were other worldly.

I prefer his later Albums, like "Sixteen men of Tain", which is incredible.

I found that Allan Holdsworth's chord voicings used a lot of 9ths and fifth intervals, not a lot of thirds.

[Brooks]

I wish I liked his music as much as everybody else. I feel I am missing something, failing to understand him.

Check out Believe It by Tony Williams Lifetime, and Heavy Machinery (Allan w/ the Johanssen brothers), they are a good entry point.