He's human after all! (Sort of)

**Jimmy Smith** · 10-28-2022, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

What makes you think Bird had a part?

i mean it’s possible, but I think it’s more likely that it was the standard sax section and he was just on to blow, no?

That's what it seems like to me.

**sgcim** · 10-28-2022, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

That's what it seems like to me.

Hafer made the comment that Bird already knew the book. I got the impression this was just a one night thing, like the situation with Phil Woods. It was a live concert, and I thought Bird was filling in for one of the missing tenor players, DuLong, but I see on the post that the despised Eagles fan (lol) made, Hafer was subing for DuLong,
They even had a rehearsal for Bird in the afternoon.
That makes Bird look even worse, and Phil Woods look like the genius I've been trying to tell people he was. Phil did it cold! And drunk!!!

**Jimmy Smith** · 10-28-2022, 08:07 PM

See, he must have been on drugz if he'd seen/heard the changes before. :P

**Litterick** · 10-28-2022, 08:13 PM

This is the Third Herd, not the Four Brothers (Getz, Sims, Steward or Cohn, Chaloff).

**Jimmy Smith** · 10-28-2022, 08:35 PM

I'd better bail out of this thread until I can pay closer attention.

**sgcim** · 10-29-2022, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Litterick

This is the Third Herd, not the Four Brothers (Getz, Sims, Steward or Cohn, Chaloff).

Yeah, but they had that type of sax section, three tenors and one Bari.
The Four Brothers band were a bunch of junkies, because of Serge Chaloff, It's hard to believe that guys like Al Cohn and Bernie Glow (who I did a week-long gig with) were junkies at one time, but they did manage to beat it. They still wound up dying in their early 60s of related diseases.
Chaloff died at the age of 33. Jimmy Raney managed to stay away from heroin, but alcoholism contributed greatly to his death.

The Third Herd were like a bunch of Boy Scouts compared to the Four Brothers Band.

**wintermoon** · 10-29-2022, 02:43 AM

Dig his playing here w the same band.
Sounds like he figured the bridge out by this point

**wintermoon** · 10-29-2022, 03:08 AM

True enough my friend but that was my fave Herd. Chaloff, as bad a junkie as there was he was an incredible bari player.
I almost feel like he made that band. His lp on Capitol "Blue Serge" is brilliant, I could listen to it on a loop, like another junkie's, Art Pepper's "Meets The Rhythm Section" on Contemporary.

**Jonah** · 10-29-2022, 03:38 AM

I think it is difficult to make guesses...

If he did not know the tune and the changes it could be tricky to figure out that bridge changes on spot by ear immidiately - and for a dense fast improvizer who plays a lot of notes this sitation can immidiately show it.

But I think player like Bird can also be very spontaneous in his casual behaviour and approach (I do not speak about practice, bit rather about pratical preparations for a gig or record and all ) and they all generally lived and played in more or less one language/idiom.

I think may musicians had experience when they are in familiar context and they play but suddenly they realize that they keep playing but they are actually distracted and think of something else (it is no good of course but it happens especially with those who play a lot and not always what they want to play at the moment) and it can be that in such situation the non-concious skills do not worlk thoroughly and then a player kind of 'wakes up'... or he realizes that he is distracted and cannot figure out where he is musically. It is like being in another time flow suddely.

and with the player like Bird it would show especially clearly - post-bop period Miles could easily conceal it because his style has a lot of spaces long notes so he can take time to figure out or play one-two sucure notes without being noticed... but Bird just falls out.

**djg** · 10-29-2022, 03:29 PM

i suggest to check out bird flight on this topic.

edit: feb 18 2014

**sgcim** · 10-29-2022, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Dig his playing here w the same band.
Sounds like he figured the bridge out by this point

"Come All Ye Faithful"LOL!

**Jonah** · 10-29-2022, 06:40 PM

I can't remember where it was but read a story about Peterson playing gig with Parker (not all-star Norman Granz sessions) and it also described bridge in some standard and that Peterson took unusual key and fast ternpo or something and Parker could not figure out the bridge from the first time...
It seems E major key was mentioned.

Probably it was Peterson himself in his autobiography but I am not sure

**princeplanet** · 10-30-2022, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by SOLR

He apparently was not..read the story

S

Link didn't work.... so what was the rest of the story?

**SOLR** · 10-30-2022, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Link didn't work.... so what was the rest of the story?

does this work Just a moment.... ?

S

**pcjazz** · 10-30-2022, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by SOLR

does this work Just a moment.... ?

S

Nope: site unavailable.

**SOLR** · 10-31-2022, 04:45 PM

strange things happening with the link here's one more try https://www.jazzwax.com/2011/11/inte...er-part-1.html

the C Parker bit is on page 2.....

there has been an issue with the Jazzwax site from where the link originates as of the 29th it may still act up ....

S

**princeplanet** · 10-31-2022, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by SOLR

strange things happening with the link here's one more try https://www.jazzwax.com/2011/11/inte...er-part-1.html

the C Parker bit is on page 2.....

there has been an issue with the Jazzwax site from where the link originates as of the 29th it may still act up ....

S

That worked, thanks. Interesting read, although the bit about the 4 bros recording doesn't give much insight- still just one guy's impression.

**SOLR** · 10-31-2022, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

That worked, thanks. Interesting read, although the bit about the 4 bros recording doesn't give much insight- still just one guy's impression.

Right, but the guy was way closer to the action than any of us have or will ever be.....

Not the olympics or other pro sports with all the drug tests....

S

**Marinero** · 11-01-2022, 09:42 AM

O.K.,
After listening to the record, he was obviously distracted by something and when he did start to play was spot on the money. Anything could have happened but I don't think he forgot the changes.
Marinero

**Reg** · 11-01-2022, 11:00 AM

How many of you guys have had to blow through that bridge... I mean really, I still remember the 1st time I ran into the tune... on gig and only thing that saved me was there was a chart... make quick analysis while playing. Remember thinking or hearing the "Have you meet miss jones" reference LOL. (tonic systems).

I still think Bird was not human...

**princeplanet** · 11-01-2022, 11:03 AM

.. not that anyone can tell much difference between sober vs high Bird (with a couple of famous exceptions obviously)...

**Marinero** · 11-02-2022, 10:49 AM

I'm just remembering a recording on YT with Parker playing high/drunk. Anyone remember this video???
Marinero

**wintermoon** · 11-02-2022, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Marinero

I'm just remembering a recording on YT with Parker playing high/drunk. Anyone remember this video???
Marinero

That would be the majority of his recordings but you're probably referring to the Lover Man/Max making wax session where they had to hold him up to the mic and he was swaying in and out.

**grahambop** · 11-02-2022, 11:27 AM

From what I’ve read, the problem with the ‘Lover Man’ session was actually that Bird was NOT high on heroin for once (he was unable to find it in California), and had been substituting neat whisky instead.

**princeplanet** · 11-02-2022, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

From what I’ve read, the problem with the ‘Lover Man’ session was actually that Bird was NOT high on heroin for once (he was unable to find it in California), and had been substituting neat whisky instead.

... and yet despite this, his playing was still more compelling than what most of us can play when at our best

...