How Long Do You Expect Me To Take This??????

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

"I love this stuff and your enthusiasm for it! But I’m a little confused by your readings of some of the elements under the hood. The guitar line in this example is based on hitting the “one-and”. The 16th note “e-and” accents add the feel, but in almost every JB tune, there’s a clear and necessary accent on the one." Nevershouldhavesoldit

Great comment, N, but if you listen again very closely(The Big Payback), the beat begins 1/32 before the first beat(played as a tie note into the first beat in the first measure) and continues from 0 to .35. Then, from .42 onwards(basically the whole song), there's a clear 1/16 before the first beat. That's the whole magic of the Funk sound and that's how I was taught. It's a feel and everything is slightly offbeat. That's the way we always played it. And, it's difficult for some to hear and some guys just can't play it properly as they're always missing the upbeat. We went through a lot of drummers who couldn't get that feel. That's the key. I hope that's clear. Here's one more example. Listen to the bass and guitar in the background playing that same concept where in lieu of being tie notes, they're played separately. Also, the emphasis on the 4th beat, at times, before one. Good Funk keeps mixing it up. Try playing that from a lead sheet!

P.S. All good Funk emphasizes the 1st beat(especially JB) but with the above important musical nuances. M

Ahh - now I see it! Your postscript is exactly what I mean. We’re just looking at the same thing in different ways. At tempos above a ballad, that 32nd is just leading the beat to me. As you say, getting that right is purely a matter of feel. But writing it out as a 32nd note wouldn’t help even the best studio player get it right if he or she doesn’t feel it. And different players lead by different amounts, which is often why a great player doesn’t seem to fit a band with a slightly different time feel. Like the old saying goes, “there are two 32nd in every 64th” - and everybody has to hit the same one to be really tight.

The groove is wide enough and deep enough for everyone, as long as they’re all in synch. When even one’s off, the whole band falls out of it.

[Christian Miller]

I have no criticism whatsoever of Mozart; I love his music, especially the operas. Without making a list, I am guessing he would be in my Top 20.

I don't expect everyone to share my musical preferences; I certainly wouldn't question their virtue if they didn't.

But then again, I'm not a woman.

I think I might honestly prefer Haydn. I’ll keep it on the down low tho. Mind you I think the missus already thinks I ‘lack virtue’ and she isn’t wrong.

i listened to the 22nd symphony on the way to a recording session. The one with the horn. It’s very good.

or am I lying?

[Doctor Jeff]

I told I girl once that I particularly liked Haydn, and she said, "Now what do you want me to do when I find you, you naughty boy?"

[maxsmith]

You aren't lying; Franz is the best. It's a shame you have to sneak your Haydn like it's a pint bottle of vodka hidden in a gig bag pocket, but you're not alone. I can't listen to any music with flutes - jazz, classical, Brazilian, whatever - within earshot of my bride - she can't stand the sound. I don't know that she questions my virtue, but my aesthetic judgment is generally under review.

I'll check the 22nd today.

I think I might honestly prefer Haydn. I’ll keep it on the down low tho. Mind you I think the missus already thinks I ‘lack virtue’ and she isn’t wrong.

i listened to the 22nd symphony on the way to a recording session. The one with the horn. It’s very good.

or am I lying?

[Jimmy Smith]

I told I girl once that I particularly liked Haydn, and she said, "Now what do you want me to do when I find you, you naughty boy?"

Oh dear

[Bop Head]

Hi, D,
I've listened to Cory and I like some of his horn bands but let's not lead people to believe that he's a great player. I grew up in Chicago with R@R, Soul, R@B, Funk, and Jazz in the 50's/60's/70's and when I said most players in my neighborhood could play rhythm guitar as well as Cory . . . that wasn't a slam to him but rather that we had some talented pre-teens/teens that were playing that stuff. I'm happy for any player today that makes it commercially but this is a Jazz forum with a high bar and what he plays doesn't meet that standard. And, if you listen to the Funk genre you know there are hundreds of players better than Cory out there. So, as long as we're talking about Funk . . . here's the master . . . Cornell Dupree. RIP, brother!
Forever Marinero

At least Cornell left us some lessons:

[Jimmy Smith]

I must say I was very pleasantly surprised when I joined the forum and saw that most people were tradish. I prefer traditional playing and think it already spans a lot to listen to and work on. I will go and listen to or work on a separate genre rather than try to muck up traditional jazz. However, I do like some of the new playing and how they are able to blend mod and tradish.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I’m surprised that any of you grumpy old bastards like anything I play, but many have said as much so go figure

[Christian Miller]

The missus said that she pities me.

[Bop Head]

All trad — how sad …

[Litterick]

Really guys, with rare exception, where has this music gone?

Into the past, Marinero.

Organ Grinder's Swing is a song from 1936, that Jimmy Smith recorded in 1964. Since then, other songs have been written and recorded, like all those funk songs you enjoy. Things change with time. Those young musicians who try to hold on to the styles of the past – to keep their heads down and play straight ahead without looking at what is happening around them – will never be any more than pasticheurs, how ever hard they try. The music they make is not theirs; it is not of their time. The music school graduates making middle-class funk are the same. They did not grow up with funk; they know it from records.

We should celebrate the past and be grateful we can enjoy its fruits, without regret that we will not hear their likes again.

[Bop Head]

Into the past, Marinero.

Organ Grinder's Swing is a song from 1936, that Jimmy Smith recorded in 1964. Since then, other songs have been written and recorded, like all those funk songs you enjoy. Things change with time. Those young musicians who try to hold on to the styles of the past – to keep their heads down and play straight ahead without looking at what is happening around them – will never be any more than pasticheurs, how ever hard they try. The music they make is not theirs; it is not of their time. The music school graduates making middle-class funk are the same. They did not grow up with funk; they know it from records.

We should celebrate the past and be grateful we can enjoy its fruits, without regret that we will not hear their likes again.

I think you can get a long way via listening to records. It depends on how much and how intensively you listen.

When I was around 20 (early 90ies) there was a big thing in Europe’s clubs called “acid jazz”. DJs played a wild mixture of soul jazz, funk & soul (from JB hits to obscure singles – “rare groove”), hip-hop, dub reggae, jungle / drum & bass, jazz rock etc. Munich was one of the epicenters of that (a club night called “Into Somethin’”), after London (where that originated AFAIK with DJs like Gilles Peterson) and next to Hamburg (“Mojo Club”) and Paris. Those DJs and DJ teams were even touring around other cities. It was an underground thing and it was great.

In Munich there was a funk band called the “Poets of Rhythm” who were part of that scene (my former bands was heavily influenced by that stuff as well then and we played several times together with them).

The Poets even played gigs in the UK and had a little hit there. Their funk was considered so authentic that they were later engaged to teach the American retro funk and soul band The Dap-Kings (Sharon Jones [RIP] & the Dap-Kings) how to play that music.

But the most important thing is that they got much respect from their heroes of whom many were still alive then when they played with them.

Drummer Max Weissenfeldt even played on one of the last Dr. John albums (among many other things you can look him up at discogs. He lives now half in Berlin half in Ghana and works mainly with African musicians.)

[kris]

I’m surprised that any of you grumpy old bastards like anything I play, but many have said as much so go figure

Polite and cultured old gentlemen.

[Gabor]

I think I might honestly prefer Haydn. I’ll keep it on the down low tho. Mind you I think the missus already thinks I ‘lack virtue’ and she isn’t wrong.

i listened to the 22nd symphony on the way to a recording session. The one with the horn. It’s very good.

or am I lying?

I can not help, but whenever Haydn or listenig Haydn comes to the topic, I associate to the saying "life is too short to drink cheap wine" (also my alcohol processing capacity is to limited, so I actively apply this rule, of course I am not talking about $50-$5000...)

Now my music listening time is also limited, so why would I listen Haydn, when I can listen Mozart?

I am aware, this sounds a dumb question, and implies an primitive mindset, it also completly ignores a life of work of a great composer.... But I have this repeated experience when listening Haydn, I always feel, well, this is good, why I do not listen him (Haydn) more often? This feeling instantly vanish the very next time I listen Mozart, and understand my imagination about music was so limited when I though "good". i never used drogs, but I tend to imagine the effect of heroin to the enjoyment of listening Mozart in terms of instant joy, and Haydn seems to be a far grey memory, similar to the real life for a user.

[Litterick]

When I was around 20 (early 90ies) there was a big thing in Europe’s clubs called “acid jazz”.

I remember it well, but wish I could forget it.

The Poets of Rhythm were three decades ahead of Cory Wong, Vulfpeck and the other bands fresh out of music school. In the early 90s, the founders of funk were still playing. Most designed things – art, cars, fashion, music – become retro about thirty years after they became unfashionable. The Poets were a continuation of funk, while the graduates are making a pastiche of it.

[Bop Head]

Bruckner … no one mentioned Bruckner …

[Bop Head]

Regarding FUNK:

It helped my funk playing a lot to practice polyrhythmic accents systematically.

[The concept of polyrhythm was introduced to me by Argentine latin fusion drummer Omar Belmonte who gave a workshop for my former band at a very early stage of our career]

Play e.g. 3 against 4 in sixteenths
(alternate strokes, uppercase X = sounding; lowercase x = muted)

e.g. 2 bar

1 a & a 2 a & a 3 a & a 4 a & a 1 a & a 2 a & a 3 a & a 4 a & a
X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x

repeat for a while, then shift the accents one sixteenths

x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X

like above, next shift

x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x X x x

the next shift is back on the first one

now 5 against 4; 5 = 3 + 2

X x x X x X x x X x X x x X x X x x X x X x x X x X x x X x X x

shift again — now there are 5 permutations

(you could try 7 as well = 3 + 2 + 2)

After practicing this for a while the polyrhythms get ingrained and come out automatically.

Of course this helps nothing without listening a lot of good funk, but it will be much easier after this practice (at least it was for me)

• to imitate what you are hearing
• to come up with you’re own ideas instead of repeating patterns learned by rote (as many do) and you will better be able to vary and improvise a little within the mononotous groove.

Then it is important to be locked with drums and bass. I always did this intuitively but I read Steve Cropper talking about it later in an Guitar Player interview. I always try to alternate between high and low strings as well according to kick and snare (this comes also from having done a lot of busking alone where your guitar is your whole band).

Another thing is dancing. In an interview drummer Omar Hakim once said every time he learns a new style he goes to the clubs to see how the people are dancing to that music and to dance himself. I doubt they teach you that at Berklee LOL.

[Christian Miller]

I can not help, but whenever Haydn or listenig Haydn comes to the topic, I associate to the saying "life is too short to drink cheap wine" (also my alcohol processing capacity is to limited, so I actively apply this rule, of course I am not talking about $50-$5000...)

Now my music listening time is also limited, so why would I listen Haydn, when I can listen Mozart?

I am aware, this sounds a dumb question, and implies an primitive mindset, it also completly ignores a life of work of a great composer.... But I have this repeated experience when listening Haydn, I always feel, well, this is good, why I do not listen him (Haydn) more often? This feeling instantly vanish the very next time I listen Mozart, and understand my imagination about music was so limited when I though "good". i never used drogs, but I tend to imagine the effect of heroin to the enjoyment of listening Mozart in terms of instant joy, and Haydn seems to be a far grey memory, similar to the real life for a user.

interesting metaphor haha

because Haydn is not really like Mozart. Their music does different things. It’s actually a bit like comparing apples to oranges. It’s hard to put in to words but it’s like they use similar language to tell different stories. Haydn is like some super knowledgable and witty friend who doesn’t have to hog the limelight but is always brilliant when he does, while Mozart is the life and soul of the party but can get a bit much sometimes.

One thing I find interesting about Haydn is he had such a long career, he actually bridges the classical era. His early works are almost late baroque and his late works are early romantic.

[kris]

I see a lot of interest in classical music ... I like that.

[Bop Head]

[…] because Haydn is not really like Mozart. Their music does different things. It’s actually a bit like comparing apples to oranges. It’s hard to put in to words but it’s like they use similar language to tell different stories. Haydn is like some super knowledgable and witty friend who doesn’t have to hog the limelight but is always brilliant when he does, while Mozart is the life and soul of the party but can get a bit much sometimes. […]

Maybe some food for thought to express the differences: Someone once explained me that the Music of Beethoven is complete in so far as it has keys to all aspects of a human being. Those aspects are thinking / intellect, feeling / emotions, body / movements / motor function (This comes from the teachings of Gurdijeff who distilled his teachings from different Eastern traditions — I think there was a finer differentiation than that but I cannot remember it in the moment. The Indian chakras are a similar thing).

Now try to develop a sense to really feel where a certain music hits you (which aspect). As an extreme example electronic dance music is rather not intellectual but a Richie Hawtin is a little bit more so than the Disco Boys.

After a while you have a more objective and precise language to express those differences.

[Gabor]

"Beethoven is the Mozart of music"

[Marinero]

Ahh - now I see it! Your postscript is exactly what I mean. We’re just looking at the same thing in different ways. At tempos above a ballad, that 32nd is just leading the beat to me. As you say, getting that right is purely a matter of feel. But writing it out as a 32nd note wouldn’t help even the best studio player get it right if he or she doesn’t feel it. And different players lead by different amounts, which is often why a great player doesn’t seem to fit a band with a slightly different time feel. Like the old saying goes, “there are two 32nd in every 64th” - and everybody has to hit the same one to be really tight.

The groove is wide enough and deep enough for everyone, as long as they’re all in synch. When even one’s off, the whole band falls out of it.

Hi, N,
Being a performing Jazz musician, I knew you would come back with this excellent explanation. Nuance is everything in Music and in the case of R&B/Funk, it's a feel but it can be described musically. And, it's not just this genre, but all music employs this technique. Folk musicians, Oriental Music, Indian Music, and the West's Classical Music tradition(acciaccatura) all use this technique because it gives color and personality to their sound. However, this Funk sound, like Jazz, is very subtle but it's there. I once tried to explain this to a band member during a horn section rehearsal and he couldn't hear it. So, I pulled out my metronome from my briefcase and set the beat to 84 bpm and told him to close his eyes and listen to the beat. Then start an 1/8th, 1/16th, and finally 1/32nd before the beat. He didn't get it that night, but the next rehearsal he had it cold. In fact, the early Miles Davis was famous for this technique when he played ballads and a good example is the Classic "My Funny Valentine" played by him at "Live in Philharmonic Hall" NY 1964 which, for me, is one of the most creative and personal interpretations of a song I have ever heard played by any musician in any genre. So, that's the cake and the frosting. Thanks for your excellent reply.
Marinero

[Marinero]

Into the past, Marinero.

Organ Grinder's Swing is a song from 1936, that Jimmy Smith recorded in 1964. Since then, other songs have been written and recorded, like all those funk songs you enjoy. Things change with time. Those young musicians who try to hold on to the styles of the past – to keep their heads down and play straight ahead without looking at what is happening around them – will never be any more than pasticheurs, how ever hard they try. The music they make is not theirs; it is not of their time. The music school graduates making middle-class funk are the same. They did not grow up with funk; they know it from records.

We should celebrate the past and be grateful we can enjoy its fruits, without regret that we will not hear their likes again.

Hi, L,
Yes, this is certainly true! However, if we really believed that in totality, how could we ever play the music of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, Haydn, etc? A genre can be learned but it requires maximum exposure to the subject. As a beginning CG student, I once asked my teacher how many hours to play like a professional. Without hesitation, he blurted: 20,000 hours.
Marinero

[Christian Miller]

A lot of Beethoven is really weird. Like really off the deep end odd.

[Bop Head]

A lot of Beethoven is really weird. Like really off the deep end odd.

Are you sure? The world-embracing power of his music (accessible too anyone)* is the reason why his music is very often played at official events e.g. of the United Nations or the European Union.** (Was Beethoven the reason for the Brexit LOL?)

* especially if you compare it to e.g. Stravinsky, Schönberg, Bartok, Hindemith

** Beethoven wanted to take the 4th movement of his 9th (“Ode to Joy”) — that later became the anthem of the EU — out of print because he did not like it, he found it rhythmically to primitive, but it was to late.