David Laibman and his work

[RJVB]

Assuming rags are a precursor to jazz, what's the opinion here on David Laibman and his original ragtimes?

I've studied his Pandora's Rag last year, a nice piece with a lot of early-music-like influences, of which I think there only exists a recording that's part of his video course (sold by Stefan Grosman).
But listening to him I can never escape that feeling of labouriousness ...

[tbeltrans]

Though I appreciate the efforts of the steel string fingerstyle ragtime players, they often do sound as if they are working rather hard to get through a piece. I remember reading in an interview with Joe Pass in which he said that if the player has to work hard, then the audience has to work hard to listen to the performance. For context, he was talking about those jazz chords that require very long stretches that can be difficult to move into and out of. That is one thing I really appreciate about the cords Robert Conti uses in his chord melody books and DVDs - he does it all with chords that are easy to grab.

Anyway, with regard to ragtime, I really enjoy listening to the classical guitarist Giovanni de Chiaro, who arranged the complete works of Scott Joplin for solo classical guitar, which are published all in one volume from Mel Bay and he recorded them on a collection of 4 CDs.

https://www.melbay.com/Products/9693...tt-joplin.aspx (the book)

Youtube playlists for each of the 4 albums:

His arrangements are easier to play than I had originally thought and can be a nice diversion. I enjoy listening to these in my car, as they are quite relaxing rather than being played at the frenetic pace too many piano players use. I purchased all 4 albums from amazon.com as MP3s, but I am not sure that they still have the complete set.

Tony

[RJVB]

Thanks for the reference!

Though I appreciate the efforts of the steel string fingerstyle ragtime players, they often do sound as if they are working rather hard to get through a piece.

That's never good, indeed, but why would this be particular to steel string fingerstyle ragtime players? The chords don't look that much more difficult that the ones I see used by jazz guitarists (and probably easier than what someone like Jonathan Stout does with his left hand). Maybe it's the transcriptions from piano that aren't too well done?

but ... turns out the counter-example I thought I had is played on a nylon-stringer

The interesting thing with Laibman's original rags is that they are written for guitar, which is always better in my book (if not only because there is already so much "borrowed" repertoire).

His arrangements are easier to play than I had originally thought and can be a nice diversion. I enjoy listening to these in my car, as they are quite relaxing rather than being played at the frenetic pace too many piano players use.

IIRC Joplin's rags (all?) have indications like "not fast"...

[tbeltrans]

The materials I have from David Laibman are him teaching Joplin and Joseph Lamb rags. These video lessons are from Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop. At least for me, these are much more difficult to play smoothly than those I referenced. I personally find it difficult to listen to these players working to play the pieces as I mentioned in my post. If others here don't agree, that is fine since this is my own opinion, which seems to agree with the OP.

It is certainly believable that you could find videos of steel string fingerstyle players performing Joplin and other ragtime composers' music more smoothly, since it really is up to the arranger as to how playable the arrangement will be. My own comments apply to those recordings and videos that I have personally heard and watched, rather than to be taken as a blanket statement applicable to every possible performance.

Tony

[RJVB]

The materials I have from David Laibman are him teaching Joplin and Joseph Lamb rags. These video lessons are from Stefan Grossman's Guitar Workshop.

The "Classic Rag" bundle? I have that one, and it contains one of Laibman's one compositions, the aforementioned Pandora's rag. I thought there were more of his, but the rest is indeed Joplin, Lamb and one by Scott.
Pandora's Rag is not easy but playable; I'd be curious to know what you think of it (I did notice I'll have to work on it again...)

[tbeltrans]

I have not played those in quite some time. My guitar playing started with fingerstyle when I was really taken with the playing of Leo Kottke. Back then, the only resources we had to learn were the vinyl records by ear. Being self-taught, I was very fortunate to have taken the time to teach myself to read standard notation and charts (i.e. some chord vocabulary, what the chord symbols mean, etc.) along with basic diatonic theory so at least I could understand what the band leader was talking about. This got me a job as a sideman for a couple of years in a trio playing supper clubs, resorts, Holiday Inns, etc., an AF of M union job when there was no other work to be had back in the mid-late 1970s. That got me introduced to the standards and a whole new world of music, which is why I am here in these forums. Conti's chord melody materials are perfect for aging fingers because he captures a sophisticated set of voicings without sacrificing anything while at the same time, not requiring uncomfortable stretches.

For quite some time, I was divided between fingerstyle acoustic playing and chord melody, but in more recent years I have given up on fingerstyle and stuck to chord melody. So it has been some time since I dabbled with the Stefan Grossman materials. I would have to dig all that stuff out of storage to answer your questions, and I honestly would rather stay focused on what I am currently doing at this point.

As I mentioned earlier, the ragtime I prefer to listen to in the car is Giovanni de Chiaro, rather than the fingerstle steel string players. Giovanni de Chiaro is so smooth and relaxing, the way Scott Joplin said his music should be played. The steel string fingerpickers likewise play that way for the most part, but they seem to me to lack that smoothness and elegance that a classically trained player can achieve seemingly effortlessly. Giovanni de Chiaro is, in my opinion, a master arranger of these rags, fitting them so ingeniously on the guitar so they flow without sounding simplistic. He effectively captures the essence without trying to capture as much as possible what the piano arrangements are doing. To me, that is just genius. The steel string players try to capture the original piano part as much as possible, and I do recall David Laibman saying that in his Stefan Grossman videos, though he also said he tries to not make them too difficult either. Regardless, it always seemed to me that there was some level of effort to get through the arrangements beyond what the average practiced player could do smoothly.

For smoother steel string fingerstyle rags, you might want to look into John James:

Expand Your Fingerpicking Repertoire and Technique | Homespun

A couple of youtube links:

Tony