20th century jazz guitar forum?

[kris]

It was sarcasm, Kris. They may be 'modern' jazz players but they are very old names. It was a joke, a pun on the word modern.

All on this list are brilliant musicians.
I love them all.

[Rhythmisking]

Love Mike Stern! A great example of a player who plays in a more modern style yet his lines and melodies contain some of the DNA of the old masters.

One of my absolute favorites, and also one of the sweetest guys on the planet.

In fact, I'm seeing him at Yoshi's in Oakland on Monday :-)

[Christian Miller]

Are more of the younger generation of jazz guitarists composing their own music? That is one large aspect of jazz musicians I am drawn to. For me I like to hear what they really have to say musically. The jazz music I listen to is about even with older releases and the newer things that have been released in the 21st century. I do appreciate interpretations of songs but I am more drawn to original compositions by jazz musicians.

That’s a good question. There’s people with a jazz background doing a lot more diverse stuff, maybe.

I think jazz itself is a fairly useless category to describe a lot of what goes on these days. I love Ben Monder and Theo Bleckman’s work but I have no desire to categorise it as jazz though both musicians come from that world.

But I’m comfortable with not always categorising things and simply calling it ‘original music’.

Or Krantz mangling a strat. People seem to get very exercised over the right to call that jazz for some reason, but to me it would be enjoyed by people who might have no interest in acoustic jazz. I think it’s great btw, seen Wayne twice. In practical terms this stuff gets booked at jazz clubs, so whatever.

OTOH Rosenwinkel always goes in that kind of jazz space to me, and one of the most exciting records I’ve heard in the past year is a jazz guitarist with a fat hollow body playing Ellington tunes really absurdly well.

Sometimes it takes me a long while to understand a musician’s original work. I love Lage Lund on standards because it helps me hear what he’s doing but I have no reference points yet for some of his originals work. It’s clearly interesting.

That said it often feels like the guitarists are a but out of touch with fashion in jazz which has moved towards the hip hop/electronic fusion direction that the guitar doesn’t quite fit into (Kurt had elements though). Sometimes that’s a good thing.

I’m not great at listening to stuff from the wider music world; by which I mean stuff which isn’t written about by jazz journalists… but I do quite like what I hear from the wider non-chart non-jazz music world. There’s a lot of interesting work out there.

[kris]

I don't really know what the thread is about.
Am I too old or what?

[EastwoodMike]

One of the Albums in my youth that had a pivotal influence on my opinions was Miles Davis’s Panthalassa. I knew Miles was a Jazz icon. This music was not 2-5-1 swing tunes that Jazz is so often characterised as being. It took a while for me to reconcile how to connect this music with Jazz.
My music teacher at the time pointed out that everything in the music textbook was a history book of sorts and that the evolution of Jazz had moved too far beyond what the commonly taught pedagogy was providing. It was ‘too new’ for the curriculum to catch up to. He also noted that ‘Classical music’ is also a Genre that encompasses many harmonic forms, historical periods, ensemble sizes and content etc but it is still broadly described as Classical. Jazz is the same but younger it too was evolving.

I saw his point and it still is today. Jazz might have its roots in swing but so much jazz no longer is defined but swing alone. Some of the names described today create their music with a combination of effects pedals as well. Take Mary Halvorsen- she uses two at once! Mike Stern loves his reverb and the fusion artists take whatever they can lay their hands on.
There are hundreds of modern day Jazz musicians. Many do not stick to swing or standard chord progressions of the past, but they are as valid as those from the past. Probably all started with learning standards vas a foundation skill and evolved it from there. My long winded point ( sorry) - if I constrained my definition of jazz to swing and 2-5-1 classic progressions only, not only could I not appreciate the broader world if this genre but I would be divorcing the conversation of anything outside of that definition.
stay safe all
EMike

[Peter C]

I'm gradually posting threads with original music by some of these people.

Actually, Scofield is one guitarist who is discussed here quite often and he was already 21st century back in the 1980s, no argument there. Stern, too. So maybe the younger players are ignored because they're .... young?? If so, suspected old fert syndrome strikes again.

Now look here chaps, I'm beginning to regret using the term old furts. But, relating it to actual body gases? Really? So what about when someone is called an a**hole?

We saw Hogan's heroes in the UK back in the day. Great show and I have a very good memory... but don't remember a specific guitarist at Klink's birthday party. Is it on YT, maybe?

Yes curbucci, a lot of these players are composers and/or have a very personal style, and that is also my main area of interest. Sheer (mere) technical ability to play Giant Steps perfectly at breakneck speeds is not my thing at all, and I skip over those players.

Nice post, that last one, EastwoodMike.

[rictroll]

Sw

That’s a good question. There’s people with a jazz background doing a lot more diverse stuff, maybe.

I think jazz itself is a fairly useless category to describe a lot of what goes on these days. I love Ben Monder and Theo Bleckman’s work but I have no desire to categorise it as jazz though both musicians come from that world.

But I’m comfortable with not always categorising things and simply calling it ‘original music’.

Or Krantz mangling a strat. People seem to get very exercised over the right to call that jazz for some reason, but to me it would be enjoyed by people who might have no interest in acoustic jazz. I think it’s great btw, seen Wayne twice. In practical terms this stuff gets booked at jazz clubs, so whatever.

OTOH Rosenwinkel always goes in that kind of jazz space to me, and one of the most exciting records I’ve heard in the past year is a jazz guitarist with a fat hollow body playing Ellington tunes really absurdly well.

Sometimes it takes me a long while to understand a musician’s original work. I love Lage Lund on standards because it helps me hear what he’s doing but I have no reference points yet for some of his originals work. It’s clearly interesting.

That said it often feels like the guitarists are a but out of touch with fashion in jazz which has moved towards the hip hop/electronic fusion direction that the guitar doesn’t quite fit into (Kurt had elements though). Sometimes that’s a good thing.

I’m not great at listening to stuff from the wider music world; by which I mean stuff which isn’t written about by jazz journalists… but I do quite like what I hear from the wider non-chart non-jazz music world. There’s a lot of interesting work out there.

”Jazz is not a style, it’s a process. It’s one minute’s music in one minute’s time.
— Bill Evans

[kris]

I'm gradually posting threads with original music by some of these people.

Actually, Scofield is one guitarist who is discussed here quite often and he was already 21st century back in the 1980s, no argument there. Stern, too. So maybe the younger players are ignored because they're .... young?? If so, suspected old fert syndrome strikes again.

Now look here chaps, I'm beginning to regret using the term old furts. But, relating it to actual body gases? Really? So what about when someone is called an a**hole?

We saw Hogan's heroes in the UK back in the day. Great show and I have a very good memory... but don't remember a specific guitarist at Klink's birthday party. Is it on YT, maybe?

Yes curbucci, a lot of these players are composers and/or have a very personal style, and that is also my main area of interest. Sheer (mere) technical ability to play Giant Steps perfectly at breakneck speeds is not my thing at all, and I skip over those players.

Nice post, that last one, EastwoodMike.

Peter C,
Who are you addressing this thread to?
Whether someone is old or young, he can listen to what he wants.
Jazz is freedom.
All these young musicians have great respect for their older fellow musicians.
They often took lessons from distinguished senior musicians.
The young musicians did not come from outer space.
I listen a lot to Davis, Coltrane, Evans, Mccoy Tyner, Scof, K. Barron because I am connected with it and I like it very much. Every now and then I will listen to e.g. Jesse van Ruller because I like it.
Jazz musicians understand this well.

[Christian Miller]

Sw

”Jazz is not a style, it’s a process. It’s one minute’s music in one minute’s time.
— Bill Evans

BE could play like Bud Powell if he wanted to.

I’m less and less convinced by these sorts of viewpoints, and BE has a few quotes to this effect. As a BE admirer, I disagree.

Was Bach a jazz musician when he improvised a fugue? Was Ravi Shankar when he improvised on a Raag?

i wonder if the equation of jazz with improvisation is a product of the fact that people at this time in the US were unfamiliar with improvisation in other musics. Of course jazz was a big inspiration to those wishing to explore improv, but we’ve moved on.

My real problem - and I don’t think this was ever Bill’s intention in a million years - but to define jazz in this way is to minimise its history, social and cultural aspects, including its unique fusion of African and European musical cultures. as an musician who had worked with the best, perhaps this culture was so natural to him that he didn’t give it much thought. This was a world with standard songs on the radio, and full jazz clubs, and in New York a community of some of the greatest musicians in the history of the world.

And Jazz doesn’t have to improvised at all. Improvisation itself I think is mistakenly characterised as an instantaneous process. Perhaps it was for Bill, but it wasn’t for everybody.

OTOH the music no longer exists as it did in the 50s, it’s classical music now. But no one expects a composer studying chorale harmony to make a living composing like Bach.

[kris]

Check out this rare interview with John Coltrane.
He was young in 1960, he was about 34 years old.

[kris]

With respect to Bill Evans that’s bollocks.

BE could play like Bud Powell

After all, it was a quote from Bill Evans. I hope.

[Christian Miller]

After all, it was a quote from Bill Evans. I hope.

Ive expanded my thoughts out a bit more, above.

don’t want to be too dismissive of one of my favourite musicians haha, but I don’t agree with that line.

[kris]

BE could play like Bud Powell if he wanted to.

I’m less and less convinced by these sorts of viewpoints, and BE has a few quotes to this effect. As a BE admirer, I disagree.

Was Bach a jazz musician when he improvised a fugue? Was Ravi Shankar when he improvised on a Raag?

i wonder if the equation of jazz with improvisation is a product of the fact that people at this time in the US were unfamiliar with improvisation in other musics. Of course jazz was a big inspiration to those wishing to explore improv, but we’ve moved on.

My real problem - and I don’t think this was ever Bill’s intention in a million years - but to define jazz in this way is to minimise its history, social and cultural aspects, including its unique fusion of African and European musical cultures. as an musician who had worked with the best, perhaps this culture was so natural to him that he didn’t give it much thought. This was a world with standard songs on the radio, and full jazz clubs, and in New York a community of some of the greatest musicians in the history of the world.

And Jazz doesn’t have to improvised at all. Improvisation itself I think is mistakenly characterised as an instantaneous process. Perhaps it was for Bill, but it wasn’t for everybody.

OTOH the music no longer exists as it did in the 50s, it’s classical music now. But no one expects a composer studying chorale harmony to make a living composing like Bach.

"composing like Bach"-this is absurd.
First, let this composer learn what BACH has written.

[Christian Miller]

The other thing Bill doesn’t discuss in that one liner (!) is the community aspect of the music. I can’t imagine that being lost on him.

The one liner I prefer is ‘jazz is social music’ (Miles Davis)

[Christian Miller]

"composing like Bach"-this is absurd.
First, let this composer learn what BACH has written.

Im not sure what you mean. Perhaps you don’t realise trainee composers spend time writing Bach chorale exercises and counterpoint? (Including Bachs own students back in the day apparently.)

They also study Bach’s music.

[kris]

John Coltrane's Work Ethic

[kris]

Im not sure what you mean. Perhaps you don’t realise trainee composers spend time writing Bach chorale exercises and counterpoint? (Including Bachs own students.)

They also study Bach’s music.

Sure.
I meant something else.
Bach's music is an unearthly power.
Some musicians play Bach all their lives.
As if they couldn't live without playing Bach.

[kris]

The other thing Bill doesn’t discuss in that one liner (!) is the community aspect of the music. I can’t imagine that being lost on him.

The one liner I prefer is ‘jazz is social music’ (Miles Davis)

J. S. Bach - "It's easy to play any musical instrument, just touch the right key at the right time & the instrument will play itself."

[Christian Miller]

One of the Albums in my youth that had a pivotal influence on my opinions was Miles Davis’s Panthalassa. I knew Miles was a Jazz icon. This music was not 2-5-1 swing tunes that Jazz is so often characterised as being. It took a while for me to reconcile how to connect this music with Jazz.
My music teacher at the time pointed out that everything in the music textbook was a history book of sorts and that the evolution of Jazz had moved too far beyond what the commonly taught pedagogy was providing. It was ‘too new’ for the curriculum to catch up to. He also noted that ‘Classical music’ is also a Genre that encompasses many harmonic forms, historical periods, ensemble sizes and content etc but it is still broadly described as Classical. Jazz is the same but younger it too was evolving.

I saw his point and it still is today. Jazz might have its roots in swing but so much jazz no longer is defined but swing alone. Some of the names described today create their music with a combination of effects pedals as well. Take Mary Halvorsen- she uses two at once! Mike Stern loves his reverb and the fusion artists take whatever they can lay their hands on.
There are hundreds of modern day Jazz musicians. Many do not stick to swing or standard chord progressions of the past, but they are as valid as those from the past. Probably all started with learning standards vas a foundation skill and evolved it from there. My long winded point ( sorry) - if I constrained my definition of jazz to swing and 2-5-1 classic progressions only, not only could I not appreciate the broader world if this genre but I would be divorcing the conversation of anything outside of that definition.
stay safe all
EMike

I think defining jazz is a fools errand; I’m at pains not to do it actually, although practically I do feel there needs to be 1) better marketing for bewildered punters and 2) less attachment about the ‘jazz’ label which Miles and others always hated.

My criticism of Bill Evans definition is based on that too. Jazz can’t actually simply be a how or what; it is both of these things and also a who, a where and a when. (BE’s complex thoughts on music are of course not limited to quotable one liners.)

Bear in mind for the entire history there was always some group of fans of the older music saying that the new stuff wasn’t jazz - this goes back to the 1930s lol. So I’m at pains not to say the new stuff isn’t jazz; it’s more that I’m not that attached to the jazz label; but a lot of people seem to be. It seems to me it has more to do with the peculiarities of our musical micro economy and who books who than anything that might help people out.

And of course there’s the perpetual jazz musicians moan about how little actual jazz gets booked at so called jazz festivals. I’m pretty open minded, but I don’t include headline pop acts as ‘jazz’, and note that the lady who booked the Cork jazz festival in 2018 lost the gig because she booked too much jazz lol. So jazz means whatever is expedient it seems, and I can’t help but feel that robs the term of all meaning.

All that said; Mike Stern is a bop guitar player like 75% of the time haha, it takes more than playing a tele through some pedals to lose that. the NYC fusion players of that generation were soooo boppy. I do think people think there’s more of a difference between funky 16th feels, Latin feels and swing feels than there is sometimes. It all comes from the same source; a fast bop swing is a double funk groove…. Don’t be fooled by the drum pattern haha

Oh and Mary Halverson couldn’t be anything but jazz; that’s a clear cut one to me. Anyone listening to her stuff who doesn’t know jazz would recognise it as such. They would say ‘urgh turn off that ghastly jazz racket!’

Wayne Krantz? Not so sure… I think most people would hate it but I don’t know if they’d diagnose it as jazz. Maybe you need a saxophone.

Another thread; if you asked him, Bach didn’t write ‘classical’ or even ‘baroque’ music. He would have told you he wrote ‘church music’; Mozart and Haydn as well as the lesser heard contemporary Italians such Salieri, Durante and Paisello who wrote in the Italianate ‘Gallant’ style. Later historians classified it all into neat eras, but the whole idea of labelling this music is often to serve some extra musical project; in the case of ‘classical music’ burgeoning German nationalism during the 19th century. Debussy never called himself an impressionist, and so on.

Labels should be regarded with the same suspicion Miles had imo.

[Christian Miller]

Sure.
I meant something else.
Bach's music is an unearthly power.
Some musicians play Bach all their lives.
As if they couldn't live without playing Bach.

Sure.

Bach’s basic style wasn’t singular in his own era though and is replicable. Maybe if I put Bach in inverted commas ‘Bach’ in this case

But the same is true of Charlie Parker. Plenty can play in his style … but no one can be him.

(I’ll leave aside the question of where Bach derives his power because if you think I’m writing too much now…. you have no idea! But he was always a musician’s musician.)

[Litterick]

All is explained. Steve Allen introduces Bill Evans and his brother, Harry, talking about learning and playing jazz. Allen says, "The goal is to allow the subconscious mind to take over basic mechanical tasks, freeing the conscious mind to concentrate on the spontaneous creative elements that distinguish the best jazz.”

[/FONT]

[Christian Miller]

Well ... Off course she did .. Like du'h.

Jazz audiences are predominately male (googled it to be sure). This is a smaller group of men that will circle jerk about how too many notes makes music art .. I'm such a guy too, so this isn't a dig at anyone.

But want to make a business out of jazz then you need to bring in women too for a number of reasons ... and they typically are not into "too many notes"

Honestly I’m not sure. It’s easy to stereotype women as being less technical more emotional etc, but I think such conclusions are a bit lazy. There’s plenty of women who are involved with the intricacies of classical music, for instance.

I think there’s other reasons.

[kris]

Honestly I’m not sure. It’s easy to stereotype women as being less technical more emotional etc, but I think such conclusions are a bit lazy. There’s plenty of women who are involved with the intricacies of classical music, for instance.

I think there’s other reasons.

I was playing a concert where the audience was all women and it was brilliant.
There was made a CD from this jazz concert.

Attachment 86812

[kris]

When there are no women at jazz concerts, it gets really sad.

[kris]

It is not like that.
If you are an active musician you don't have time to listen to everything that is currently being recorded.
Although some may be interested in how they have time.
The musician mainly has to practice and learn from whatever suits him.
Like Coltrane -25 hours a day.
Inactive musicians can be passionate according to their taste.
Is the topic of this thread given by the active musician?