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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by arnie65 View Post
    Actually, David did a lot of straight ahead gigs before the Smooth Jazz stuff. He was heavily influenced by saxophonist Hank Crawford, who played in a ton of jazz albums. David's improv skills are lights years ahead of those from Kenny G.




    Cheers,
    Arnie..
    +1
    David has a lot of musical power also.His sound is very recognizable.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77
    Half of Pat Metheny's music is as Pop as Kenny G so he is prob getting all emotional and over top because they are pretty much in the same lane.

    The fact he cares so much is an insight to himself.

  4. #78

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    At one point in my life I saw music as a hierarchy. Now I see it as a community. Sure there’s stuff I prefer listening to. But I’ve never seen anyone benefit from being ‘better’ than someone else. Better than themselves? Defintely. But it’s not a competition.


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  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by dlew919 View Post
    At one point in my life I saw music as a hierarchy. Now I see it as a community. Sure there’s stuff I prefer listening to. But I’ve never seen anyone benefit from being ‘better’ than someone else. Better than themselves? Defintely. But it’s not a competition.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    From a musical POV I agree with this but for those that have to make their living from being a musician in a capitalistic society it is a competition. E.g. getting a job in an orchestra or moving up from 5th chair violin to 4th chair. The same goes for getting a recording deal with a record label. With the vast improvement in technology it is a lot cheaper for a musician to create their own recording but when one markets them, they are still indirectly competing with other musicians for the dollars of the general listening public.

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    From a musical POV I agree with this but for those that have to make their living from being a musician in a capitalistic society it is a competition. E.g. getting a job in an orchestra or moving up from 5th chair violin to 4th chair. The same goes for getting a recording deal with a record label. With the vast improvement in technology it is a lot cheaper for a musician to create their own recording but when one markets them, they are still indirectly competing with other musicians for the dollars of the general listening public.
    Oh for sure. I meant personally as a taste thing. I’m a full time musician outside of Covid snd it’s a total competition. I guess I’m sick of it so just accept everything as it is now.


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  7. #81

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    I think some people simply like Kenny G's sound, lines and style. He seems like a west coast guy and he's been very successful.

    I know there's substance to what Pat does from what little I've heard and the way guitar players praise him. I just can't get past the cliched 70's-80's sound.
    He's a great guitar player. He's been successful too though not at Kenny G's level.

    Who am I to judge too harshly? I'm happy for both their successful careers.

    The real question might be, who has better hair?
    In that case I hate them both.

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    fair enough. I’ll take Stan Getz, but fair enough.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol View Post
    I think some people simply like Kenny G's sound, lines and style. He seems like a west coast guy and he's been very successful.

    I know there's substance to what Pat does from what little I've heard and the way guitar players praise him. I just can't get past the cliched 70's-80's sound.
    He's a great guitar player. He's been successful too though not at Kenny G's level.

    Who am I to judge too harshly? I'm happy for both their successful careers.

    The real question might be, who has better hair?
    In that case I hate them both.
    The most interesting hair was Jimi Hendrix.

  10. #84

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    Jimi's hair is totally understandable though. I'm not quite sure what's going on with Pat's. Kenny's hair is pretty simple.

    btw: I think comparing their hair is every bit as viable as comparing their music :-)

  11. #85

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    If someone has strong hair and shows it ... that's ok.
    The longer the hair, the longer the musical phrases.

  12. #86

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    This thread made me research KG, and he's got the highest selling Christmas album of ALL-TIME??? Wow. "Miracles", 13 million sold. I'm gonna' check it out this Yuletide Season.

    When I was younger, I would not have said KG was "jazz", I probably would have said he was "one step up from Muzak", however that would have been the young, naive, ignorant me. As an experienced adult who listens to all types of music, I don't feel much need to categorize things, certainly not for myself (when I talk to others, I have to have some kind of genre ID for them to know what I'm talking about). But it's all music. And those making it a "competition" are doing it of their own accord. Hey- you want to fare better in the "competition"? Start playing whatever more people want to hear. (Or, stand your ground, play what you want to play, and let the chips fall where they may... but complaining about it is not only futile, but childish and reveals jealousy.)

    Kenny G has made an awful lot (millions) of people feel good, and in the end, that's all it's about.

    Now lets talk about Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol View Post
    I know there's substance to what Pat does from what little I've heard and the way guitar players praise him. I just can't get past the cliched 70's-80's sound.
    .
    Dont get that at all, Pat largely created the 80s sound, it only became cliched after others badly imitated it

    Also, Pat cant be a real cliched 80s jazz, because there is no obnoxious slap bass, cheesy David Sanborn sax and the chorus is not turned to 11

    I do hear they play this in a loop on the 8th level of Hell

    Last edited by BWV; 09-17-2021 at 06:25 PM.

  14. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    Dont get that at all, Pat largely created the 80s sound, it only became cliched after others badly imitated it

    Also, Pat cant be a real cliched 80s jazz, because there is no obnoxious slap bass, cheesy David Sanborn sax and the chorus is not turned to 11

    I do hear play this in a loop on the 8th level of Hell

    Guitarist sounds nothing like Metheny and PM has much better facial expressions when soloing. This guy needs to close his mouth or flies gonna be buzzin' in.

  15. #89

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    To each his own. When it comes to Kenneys, I like Burrel; Pats, well, Martino, obvs. Peace to all!

  16. #90

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    Oh boy the whole smooth jazz thing.

    I'm a jazz linear bebop guy who also loves R&B music and I don't care what anyone says, Kenny G's playing style on some of his early records was downright beautiful, really beautiful, melodic, and flowing. That being said most of it IMO was very very mellow and a bit vanilla overall for my musical tastes. Though I still felt his playing style was downright beautiful.

    That and there were other sax players in smooth jazz genre who seemed to have less mellowed out music and who's improv was exciting to listen to. You ever hear a Najee record? It's smooth jazz but that guy can play. His songs are just hook fests with really creative and emotive improv all over those records.

    Anyway my whole issue with smooth jazz was that the musicians in it just seemed to refuse to grow the genre and it became stagnant. By stagnant, I mean when I used to listen to smooth jazz radio back in the day it seemed like most of the songs were just basically the same thing over and over, and it was time to grow the genre with more variety.

    Let me use rock n roll as an example. The rock music of the 50s and the 60s are different, aren't they? The rock music of the 70s is different from both of those, right?. Keep that same logic going, and it holds true for the rock of the 80s and 90s, though they are all still recognizable as rock music. In the 2000s, it got even more metal, right? So they're not letting it get stagnant, smart. R&B moved into the Hip Hop, Neo Soul, and Rap direction's, smart. Although I gotta admit I do miss some good ole sweet with a great beat that makes you want to move your feet, and grab a girl to do it with you R&B, and I know I'm not alone in that.

    Now back to jazz, jazz has done the same thing in its own way. It's become much more diverse, and there are a lot of what I'll call sub-genres within the jazz genre as a whole. There are still straight ahead, bebop, big band, and smooth jazz records being made, but now there is also a lot happening in the modern sounding fusion world of jazz too.

    Music as an art form has to grow like a living thing. Further than that, I think you insult your audience to some degree if you act like they don't have the capacity to grow with you, and dare I say even have brilliant, gifted musicians challenge them somewhat and take them in new, interesting, exciting, and uncharted directions.
    Last edited by James Haze; 10-23-2021 at 07:38 AM.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by arnie65 View Post
    Actually, David did a lot of straight ahead gigs before the Smooth Jazz stuff. He was heavily influenced by saxophonist Hank Crawford, who played on a ton of jazz albums. David's improv skills are lights years ahead of those from Kenny G.




    Cheers,
    Arnie..
    His 1st big name gig was with the Paul Butterfield Blues Band---a top favorite of my youth and I still love them.

    Hell of a horn section, and Sanborn got some features (rare with Butter as main soloist, then the various guitarists); aces rhythm section---and Butter himself could stop you in your tracks...

  18. #92

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    Found this last night. I had heard that Pat did not like Mr. G's music. But I have to say Pat's tone sounds like a personal thing between the two. Or maybe he has a deal with Mr. G, to bring attention to his music.


  19. #93

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    I honestly just think Pat takes the music very seriously and considers Kenny G a "joke" or wannabee player not worth of the jazz labeling....smooth or not.

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfmando View Post
    I honestly just think Pat takes the music very seriously and considers Kenny G a "joke" or wannabee player not worth of the jazz labeling....smooth or not.
    I've been a fan of Pat's since the mid 70s, listened and bought all of his albums and have been to 3 of his concerts.

    But I feel that they are two different types of music, and that Pat does not need to attack so personally another person's art. Seems petty to me.

    It probably would have been better if Kenny's type of music had not been attached with the word Jazz. And that is probably Pat's main beef.

  21. #95

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    This is very old news, I think Pat said it about 20 years ago when Kenny G released a record overdubbing himself over Louis Armstrong.

  22. #96

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    As I best recall Pat's comments were made prior to the "internet/social media" of things became a "thing" right?

    I'd say by this point Kenny G has benefited from this the old any news is good news.

    Pat might even want it back if he'd known the zombie level the comments would drive...ah well.

    I still thought it was funny then and do now...but to each their own!

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfmando View Post
    Pat might even want it back if he'd known the zombie level the comments would drive...ah well!
    yes, especially if he had known the ambivalence and indifference of people that didn’t care that gorelick overdubbed himself on an iconic recording, as if to intimate he was worthy of being on the same level as Louis Armstrong. I guess Pat just cares more about the tradition and the dues Armstrong had to pay to make a name for himself.

  24. #98

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    I have been listening to a lot of Pat Metheny lately, and I must say that guy just keeps getting better and better. His compositional skills are off the charts. His last 3 albums--From This Place, Road to the Sun and Side-Eye NYC--highlight some really thoughtful long-form works. They are tone poems for jazz guitar and ensembles.

    If people want to entertain the masses, that's fine, but I agree Kenny G and Pat M are really operating in 2 different ballparks.

    Coincidentally, I just noticed that Pat's 2011 album What's It All About won a Grammy--for best New Age recording. Silly labels.

  25. #99

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    There should be enough power from within the players themselves to determine the naming of music genres. Not the suits that just profit off players

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    This is very old news, I think Pat said it about 20 years ago when Kenny G released a record overdubbing himself over Louis Armstrong.
    That's right I had forgotten about that. At the time all this went down I was not really paying attention to it. I had never before heard that clip of Pat. I never listen to Mr. G or that overdubbed album either, but makes sense that many in the Jazz world would take offense at that. My parents were big Louis Armstrong fans and I luckily grew up listening to all his albums which my parents had.