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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    If you are going to go wig you might as well go big.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    I never get tired of listening to Pat talk about music. Great interview. I can't believe one of his secrets to a great performance is that he doesn't eat all day until after he plays. I guess no breakfast for me tomorrow... I'll see if it works. Haha.

  4. #28

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    The triad pattern he uses to outline the tune starting at 1:31:53 is playing the triads in every inversion but playing every other note of the chord (open triads of sorts):

    A maj:
    A E C#
    C# A E
    E C# A

    F#7: (starts from the first "inversion")
    A# F# C#
    C# A# F#
    F# C# A#

    B-: (I think he messes up the pattern a bit here, repeats the first pattern after the second)
    B F# D
    D B F#
    B F# D

    etc ...
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-21-2021 at 08:37 PM.

  5. #29

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    What happened in 1980? (1:13:00)

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    What happened in 1980? (1:13:00)
    I assume he’s referring to the Wynton Marsalis/neobop revivalist thing that happened around then.

  7. #31

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    Finally found some time to listen to the whole thing. This interview is amazing. I will be revisiting it.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop;[URL="tel:1141776"
    1141776[/URL]]I assume he’s referring to the Wynton Marsalis/neobop revivalist thing that happened around then.
    yes i assumed it was the Wynton thing too

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeOnJazz
    I never get tired of listening to Pat talk about music. Great interview. I can't believe one of his secrets to a great performance is that he doesn't eat all day until after he plays. I guess no breakfast for me tomorrow... I'll see if it works. Haha.
    The carbs crash is the enemy of good jazz.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    The triad pattern he uses to outline the tune starting at 1:31:53 is playing the triads in every inversion but playing every other note of the chord (open triads of sorts):

    A maj:
    A E C#
    C# A E
    E C# A

    F#7: (starts from the first "inversion")
    A# F# C#
    C# A# F#
    F# C# A#

    B-: (I think he messes up the pattern a bit here, repeats the first pattern after the second)
    B F# D
    D B F#
    B F# D

    etc ...
    big thanks for that tal
    I found the explanation of the harmony
    of the Bridge of James to be very handy

    I’ve always struggled with understanding
    it and playing over it

    i got the first 4 bars as ....

    |A. F#/Bb | Bm. A/C# |
    | D Db/F. | F#m. E/Ab. |

    (corrected to F#m thanks Tal)
    Last edited by pingu; 08-22-2021 at 07:39 AM.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Least he’s smart enough to match the wig to age with it being grey.
    He’s not like the guys out there with black as night hair and a whole bunch of wrinkles!
    ...so you did not even see the video... :-)

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    big thanks for that tal
    I found the explanation of the harmony
    of the Bridge of James to be very handy

    I’ve always struggled with understanding
    it and playing over it

    i got the first 4 bars as ....

    |A. F#/Bb | Bm. A/C# |
    | D Db/F. | Fm. E/Ab. |

    does that look right to you ?
    I think the form is right but the first chord of the forth bar is F#- (instead of F-).

    I would also spell F#/Bb as F#/A#, Db/F as C#/F and E/Ab as E/G# as the bass notes suggest inversions.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-22-2021 at 07:18 AM.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Some great discussion from Pat about ‘what is melody’ at 38 minutes, very interesting.
    Yes that is one of the most interesting part for me. However he quickly shifts to explain "what mekes a solo great" instead of explain what makes a melody great, btw that is also interesting, and I really enjoyed the sentences about Wes, that octaves and thumb are interesting, but the seamless ease, how Wes connects musical thougths together is incredible. PM also great in this aspect.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I think the form is right but the first chord of the forth bar is F#- (instead of F-).

    I would also spell F#/Bb as F#/A#, Db/f as C#/F and E/Ab as E/G# as the bass notes suggest inversions.
    fab thanks yes my ooops on bar 4
    I’ll go back and correct it to F#m

    (also thanks for the enharmonic spellings
    I’m only semi-literate in music)

    the D to C# (first inversion)move in bar 3 is cool isn’t it ?

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    ...so you did not even see the video... :-)
    yeah it was more brown, with trendy sun-bleached highlights.

  16. #40

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    I like in James how it’s all baroque moves in the bridge.

    Going up by a semitone (mi-fa); use first inv major (6 3) to root position triad (5 3)

    Descending by a semitone (fa-mi); use a third inversion dominant (6 #4 2) to descend to first inversion major (6 3)

    This stuff is functionally similar to what Beato said ‘secondary dominants’ (fourthwise motion) but SOUNDS different (JS Bach would have heard them as totally different things - he didn’t buy the concept of chord inversions)

    This was touched on in the interview a few times. I think Metheny also got a lot of this from Jobim, and of course Bach etc.

    These examples of how to harmonise a major scale bass (Rule of the Octave or RO) in 18th century style are not that far from some of Pat’s harmony.



    Also check out JC Bach’s variants on the RO in his treatise if you can get your head around figured bass. Some gorgeous ones there. When I have time I’ll put them into guitar language.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-22-2021 at 02:36 PM.

  17. #41
    I can see I'm not the only one that noticed the 1980 date


    In extension of my last comment about bands and target demographic there is also the part where Gary B tells ask Pat why the ... he'd ever consider using Holland and DeJohnnette (the ECM crew) to record Bright Size Life, when he had an exciting (young) bass player and drummer of his own

  18. #42

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    Gabor I am about 50 minutes in and prioritizing the remaining hour of Pat over watching the NY Giants preseason game!
    Sure looked grey to me, but im having cataracts removed this Wednesday so ill check again with my new eyes))).

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I like in James how it’s all baroque moves in the bridge.

    Going up by a semitone (mi-fa); use first inv major (6 3) to root position triad (5 3)

    Descending by a semitone (fa-mi); use a third inversion dominant (6 #4 2) to descend to first inversion major (6 3)

    This stuff is functionally similar to what Beato said ‘secondary dominants’ (fourthwise motion) but SOUNDS different (JS Bach would have heard them as totally different things - he didn’t buy the concept of chord inversions)

    This was touched on in the interview a few times. I think Metheny also got a lot of this from Jobim, and of course Bach etc.

    These examples of how to harmonise a major scale bass (Role of the Octave or RO) in 18th century style are not that far from some of Pat’s harmony.



    Also check out JC Bach’s variants on the RO in his treatise if you can get tour heard around figured bass. Some gorgeous ones there. When I have time I’ll put them into guitar language.
    This sounds very good. A simple concept but very effective.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I assume he’s referring to the Wynton Marsalis/neobop revivalist thing that happened around then.
    Wynton’s first album was in 1982. Yes he did create quite a stir with the neorevivalist thing, but it took a year or 2 for it to build up.

    I came of “jazz age” around that time. There was a lot of energy and a lot of cool trends…fusion was still going strong, funk was coming into jazz in a bigger way, etc. But then the balloon deflated a bit. The old lions like Dizzy were on their last legs, and some of the stalwarts like Miles and Chick and Herbie and Jean-Luc Ponty and John McCutcheon were either on hiatus on moving away from the heavy jazz-rock sound that had brought them a huge audience.

    So you had a couple of schools in the 80’s that had legs…the Marsalis-influenced neotrads, the Metheny-influenced group (Pat, Scofield, Mike Stern), the Benson-influenced pop superstars, and the smooth jazz crowd.

    In retrospect I would say the neotrads and the Methenyites had the most influence.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Gabor I am about 50 minutes in and prioritizing the remaining hour of Pat over watching the NY Giants preseason game!
    Sure looked grey to me, but im having cataracts removed this Wednesday so ill check again with my new eyes))).
    sorry to hear that, I did not mean to joke about a health condition.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I like in James how it’s all baroque moves in the bridge.
    Thanks for recall that. After Beato were saying how complex and hard the bridge of James, I went and listen that, and all I was found classical harmony, nothing revolutionary, (I am not saying it is not cool)

    Having this topic, I also had some wtf feeling when PM was sharing his big revelation about harmony, meaning it is not just harmony, instead some tones are moving, so since then he have this unique view. Is not this what we call voice leading since a few hundred years and also conterpoint has to do with something "moving tones are formating harmonies"? Bach explicitely wrote two an three part inventions.

    Beato was principled enough to not mention that...

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Thanks for recall that. After Beato were saying how complex and hard the bridge of James, I went and listen that, and all I was found classical harmony, nothing revolutionary.

    Having this topic, I was also had some wtf feeling when PM was sharing his big revelation about harmony, meaning it is not just harmony, instead some tones are moving, so since then he have this unique view. Is not this what we call voice leading since a few hundred years and also conterpoint has to do with something "moving tones are formating harmonies"? Bach explicitely wrote two an three part inventions.

    Beato was principled enough to not mention that...
    Haven't gone back to review it but I thought that the discussion regarding the difficulty of James was that a lot of folks have a hard time improvising over it, not that it is a complex song?

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Thanks for recall that. After Beato were saying how complex and hard the bridge of James, I went and listen that, and all I was found classical harmony, nothing revolutionary, (I am not saying it is not cool)

    Having this topic, I also had some wtf feeling when PM was sharing his big revelation about harmony, meaning it is not just harmony, instead some tones are moving, so since then he have this unique view. Is not this what we call voice leading since a few hundred years and also conterpoint has to do with something "moving tones are formating harmonies"? Bach explicitely wrote two an three part inventions.

    Beato was principled enough to not mention that...
    Ah. But I think it was a breath of fresh air in the 70s; the ii V I paradigm and extensions had ruled pretty completely for a couple of decades (never mind that standards harmony wasn’t originally like that.) OTOH I remember Pat saying he was sick of jazz fusion vamps, he wanted harmony, just not necessarily bop harmony.

    I think people get trained in chord symbols, back-cycling root movement and extensions and so on and think that’s the be all and end all of harmony.

    From his videos, Beato tends to hear harmony that way; always up from the root with extensions being ‘interesting.’ He singled out a chord in Bach proclaiming that as an example of genius rather than, for example, his mastery of counterpoint. Maybe that’s why he thinks of major chords as difficult ‘jazz kryptonite’ while Pat simply embraces them.

    The other side of it is of course the boomer guitar influence; the language of the guitar itself, via Beatles, James Taylor etc. James gives both…

    I didn’t get the impression Pat thought this was novel per se, but I do think he is suggesting it was unusual for jazz at the time, and he is correct in this. And I do think jazz players who have studied the standard type of jazz harmony to not extend and mess around with chords - Jazzers are notorious for it…

    Pat suggested a simpler way (never mind that Bird too is often that simple).

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdub
    Haven't gone back to review it but I thought that the discussion regarding the difficulty of James was that a lot of folks have a hard time improvising over it, not that it is a complex song?
    you are right, but the point is that nothing new is happening, because in the last 300 400 years Bach and Mozart were improvizing on the exact same stuff. Bach explicitely, other like Mozart, Beethoven in the cadences of the piano concertos.

  26. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    From his videos, Beato tends to hear harmony that way; always up from the root with extensions being ‘interesting.’

    Yes .. Indeed ... That is his shtick .. Presenting songs as root based and with the extensions as the explanation of what makes this song great


    Now the thing is that is hard to know is whether he actually hears, sees or understands music like this .. or whether it's a deliberate choice cause it's in some ways advanced, but still simple enough so that the noobs to early intermediates that make up the vast majority of his target audience can nod along and go "Ahh yes .. I get it"