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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Gosh, it's really a great blessing that Andres Segovia never encountered a closed minded jazz defender with a big mouth. It would be painful to read a companion story concluding "and that old man couldn't even play one chorus of Autumn Leaves. I guess the classical guitar world isn't as good as jazz".
    That's really what that attitude is about.
    haha, that’s nothing compared to what Segovia would have said about Zappa!

    (he apparently described the electric guitar as an ‘abomination’ for example.)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    haha, that’s nothing compared to what Segovia would have said about Zappa!

    (he apparently described the electric guitar as an ‘abomination’ for example.)
    You ever been in a Guitar Center on a Saturday morning? I've been in Andre's corner. Cowering. Many times.

  4. #53

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    haha, that reminds me some years ago I went during my lunch hour to try out an amp at a nearby music shop. It was really a classical violin shop, but the lady who owned it had hired someone to help her diversify into guitars, amps etc.

    I didn’t have my own guitar with me, so I picked the nearest thing they had (a cheap Ibanez archtop) and messed about with the amp, playing some jazz tunes, standards etc.

    The lady who ran the shop said it was so nice to hear some tunes and melodies after listening to teenage metal shredders in the shop all day long!

  5. #54

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    I think that most of the current generation of jazz guitarists are a lot more broad-minded, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of them appreciate Zappa just as much as Wes and co.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Gosh, it's really a great blessing that Andres Segovia never encountered a closed minded jazz defender with a big mouth. It would be painful to read a companion story concluding "and that old man couldn't even play one chorus of Autumn Leaves. I guess the classical guitar world isn't as good as jazz".
    That's really what that attitude is about.
    Nah, classical music has been established as serious, virtuosic, art music for centuries. Not 3-5 chord fluff at all.

    Everybody knows rock was a commercial product conceived for teenagers to dance to, and it was about the beat, the sound, the lyrics, the singer. Any instrumental solos were veeeeeery brief so that the overall song would last less than 3.5 minutes for AM radio play.

    Bringing classical into it is bringing an apple into a comparison of oranges.

  7. #56

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    My favorite was Ray Brown. Attila Zoller once told me his favorite bass player to play with was Oscar Pettiford.

  8. #57

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    Thomas Morgan with Bill Frisell.


  9. #58

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    Greatest? Hard to say. What I do know is that I started studying the upright bass 50 years ago because of Ray Brown.

  10. #59

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    Not going to get in the fray on the rockn'rollers (although I agree that Rocco Prestia was exceptional), but glad to see the conversation shifting to names like Ray Brown, Christian, McBride, and Thomas Morgan. I will say I'm very surprised to see no mention at all of Scott LaFaro - I can't imagine what he would have done if he had lived past 25. Check out his work Bill Evans' Sunday at the Village Vanguard if you're not already familiar with it - check it out again if you are! :-)

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Gosh, it's really a great blessing that Andres Segovia never encountered a closed minded jazz defender with a big mouth. It would be painful to read a companion story concluding "and that old man couldn't even play one chorus of Autumn Leaves. I guess the classical guitar world isn't as good as jazz".
    That's really what that attitude is about.
    If Joe Pass appeared condescending of Zappa after that NAMM show experience, I believe it was more towards the hero worshipers that surrounded Zappa than it was Zappa himself. To me that is really the so called "attitude" being discussed here: that someone would be consider a "god" by know-nothings when their actual skill level doesn't come close to justifying it.

    I had a similar experience on a very personal level: I hadn't see my father for over 20 years since he left us and started a new family.

    20 years later both families have a get together; They see that I bring a guitar; Dad asks me "so you play guitar" . I say yes, and play a few songs.

    Later he says, well you just meet my grandson (from the new family), and he is a fine musician! So I ask what instrument he plays. Oh, he is a D.J. I say "a D.J. isn't a fucking musician". I did apologize to my nephew, but yea, it got under my skin that someone that had one tenth the skill I had was considered in the same so called category as myself.

    I.e. that is what I believe Pass found pathetic and I tend to agree with his take. But if Pass was just dishing Zappa that would be low-class on his part.
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 08-10-2021 at 06:53 PM.

  12. #61

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    Why should we expect someone from Joe Pass’ generation to appreciate or understand the music and playing of someone like Zappa? It’s silly, in my opinion. Joe grew up listening to Django and Charlie Parker, and the pop music of his day was tunes like All the Things You Are and Body and Soul. Since Zappa couldn’t play those tunes, I expect Joe didn’t think much of him. So what. It doesn’t reflect anything meaningful about either of them.

    Reminds me of an account I once read about Mingus when he was on a recording session with Stanley Clarke. Everyone had told Mingus that Stanley was the new superstar of the bass. But when Mingus asked him if he knew the changes to ‘Stardust’, Stanley said no. So Mingus went around telling everyone ‘so much for the hotshot bass star, he’s useless’ (or words/expletives to that effect!).

  13. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I think that most of the current generation of jazz guitarists are a lot more broad-minded, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of them appreciate Zappa just as much as Wes and co.
    I know that the younger players really appreciate the integrative roles of composer/player/leader that Zappa pioneered so masterfully. They see more in common than you might think.
    Young players grew up on a different set of influences so their reactions will be different, thankfully.

  14. #63

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    Well I've seen Stanley Clarke play live twice and can tell you that he is far and away the most dynamic physical player of that instrument that anyone could ever imagine. He is not one that hardly anyone would want to be compared to. Center stage solo, electric bass, string bass, fingers, bow, he plays it all.

    It's true that he was from the post bop and fusion "traditions" but if one thinks that he was/is the equivalent of a rock bass player, then they're nuts.


    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 08-10-2021 at 06:45 PM.

  15. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Reminds me of an account I once read about Mingus when he was on a recording session with Stanley Clarke. Everyone had told Mingus that Stanley was the new superstar of the bass. But when Mingus asked him if he knew the changes to ‘Stardust’, Stanley said no. So Mingus went around telling everyone ‘so much for the hotshot bass star, he’s useless’ (or words/expletives to that effect!).
    On the flip side, once, when Rhasaan Roland Kirk was taking questions between sets, someone asked what Kirk thought of Hendrix. Roland Kirk was very opinionated and never held his punches. I expected a tirade about rock music. But he said "Jimi. Jimi was a beautiful cat. I miss him."
    And I found out later they had even played together.
    No need for judgement there.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Well I've seen Stanley Clarke play live twice and can tell you that he is far and away the most dynamic physical player of that instrument that anyone could ever imagine. He is not one that hardly anyone would want to be compared to. Center stage solo, electric bass, string bass, fingers, bow, he plays it all.

    It's true that he was from the post bop and fusion "traditions" but if one thinks that he was/is the equivalent of a rock bass player, then they're nuts.


    Yeah that’s a great track (I have the album). I certainly don’t agree with Mingus’ assessment, that’s just the ‘old-school’ way he judged things!

    Stanley plays acoustic bass on a Dexter Gordon album I have somewhere, so Dexter obviously dug him.

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Yeah that’s a great track (I have the album). I certainly don’t agree with Mingus’ assessment, that’s just the ‘old-school’ way he judged things!

    Stanley plays acoustic bass on a Dexter Gordon album I have somewhere, so Dexter obviously dug him.
    It doesn’t get any better than Stanley’s playing with Chick Corea, especially on Chick’s My Spanish Heart Album.

  18. #67

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    I tend to take all these Zappa stories with a grain of salt. They tell more about the teller than about Frank, IMO.

    Frank was sui generis. He was an integrator and an innovator and an artist, not someone who wanted to be in a category. If he had wanted to be a pure jazz guitarist, he would have done that, but that wasn’t his bag.

    Of course I love Joe Pass and Tommy Tedesco—the latter of whom played on some pretty lame stuff in his career to make some $$—but neither of them could have composed Black Napkins or anything on The Yellow Shark, not to mention Uncle Meat or the more orchestral recordings.

    On the topic of bass Frank DID have some incredible bassists, including Patrick O’Hearn and Scott Thunes.
    Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 08-11-2021 at 08:18 AM.

  19. #68

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    Of people I've heard play perfect bass lines for songs, Paul McCartney comes to mind.

    So does Jamerson. Carole Kaye.

    For a bassist who gets in front and leads, McCartney again, but also Bootsy Collins.

    In a traditional jazz context, I like Keter Betts, Slam Stewart, Scott Colley. Walter Page.

    For monstrous technique and groove, Nico Assumpcao. (Check out his work with Tres).

    These are just a few I've enjoyed. I don't claim them to be GOAT. I haven't heard all the candidates people suggest. There are a lot of supremely talented musicians.

  20. #69

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    Wikipedia paraphrases David Fricke's account of the recording of Lumpy Gravy, which suggests a very different relationship between Zappa and Tedesco.

    Percussionist Emil Richards recalled that he did not know who Zappa was and did not take him seriously as the recording sessions began, believing that Zappa was merely the guitarist for a rock band. However, upon meeting them, Zappa handed the musicians the scores for the pieces, which were dense, complex and varied in time signatures. Richards' close friend, guitarist Tommy Tedesco, was another member of the recording sessions. Tedesco mocked Zappa, believing that Zappa did not know what he was doing. The bassoonist and bass clarinetist hired for the sessions refused to perform their parts, declaring them impossible to play. Zappa responded, "If I play your part, will you at least try it?" Zappa then used his guitar to demonstrate the parts for the musicians, who then agreed to perform their assigned parts. By the end of the recording sessions, Richards and Tedesco became convinced of Zappa's talent, and became friends with the composer. Richards later performed on sessions which appeared on Zappa's album Orchestral Favorites.


    Who is the World’s Greatest Bass Player?-emil_richards_tommy_tedesco_1968-jpg

  21. #70

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    Fascinating interview with Ron Carter. Really interesting stories from someone who has played with the greats (but not Trane!), his influences (nobody!) and about recording jazz in the early 60s at a time when engineers were just figuring things out.
    I do not like Rick Beato's blog and style...

    Ron Carter himself is very active on his FB page and he tells all those stories occasionally and the most interesting thing is that he interviews other muscians himself.

  22. #71

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    i do not know who the greatest is...

    but my favourite ones are Steve Swallow and Charlie Haden... I have always some vivid intereaction with them as a listner... always interesting, always following.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Gosh, it's really a great blessing that Andres Segovia never encountered a closed minded jazz defender with a big mouth. It would be painful to read a companion story concluding "and that old man couldn't even play one chorus of Autumn Leaves. I guess the classical guitar world isn't as good as jazz".
    That's really what that attitude is about.
    Ole Andres was somewhat guilty of this kind of thing himself.

  24. #73

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    What Ron Carter did at CTI Records back in the early seventies lives forever.

    But GOAT/BOAT fails to acknowledge incomparability:
    There's the differentiation by era, times and cohorts.
    There's double bass and there's bass guitar.
    There's rock and there's jazz.
    There's technique and there's musicality.


    ...

  25. #74
    Man, really wish Beato didn't use such a click bait "GOAT" title as that became the whole point for many (obviously just looking at a lot of these comments!), rather than the great content of the video itself.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Why should we expect someone from Joe Pass’ generation to appreciate or understand the music and playing of someone like Zappa? It’s silly, in my opinion. Joe grew up listening to Django and Charlie Parker, and the pop music of his day was tunes like All the Things You Are and Body and Soul. Since Zappa couldn’t play those tunes, I expect Joe didn’t think much of him. So what. It doesn’t reflect anything meaningful about either of them.

    Reminds me of an account I once read about Mingus when he was on a recording session with Stanley Clarke. Everyone had told Mingus that Stanley was the new superstar of the bass. But when Mingus asked him if he knew the changes to ‘Stardust’, Stanley said no. So Mingus went around telling everyone ‘so much for the hotshot bass star, he’s useless’ (or words/expletives to that effect!).
    Reminds me of just about everyone on this forum Who is the World’s Greatest Bass Player?


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