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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, L,
    Is that the litmus test? The proof? I played in working bands. We never recorded. We played jobs. Every week. Every month. These were the days of reel to reel tapes. Remember? However, we did a demo-tape, once, for one of my Jazz Rock bands in 1973-1974(?). I never got a copy of it and it's probably floating around in someone's attic/basement in Chicago collecting dust. However, to your intimation . . . is that how one validates a musician? Or, his past experiences? A recording? Get out of your video mania obsession Lawson as proof of musicianship. There are millions of us floating around the States that were working musicians that NEVER RECORDED in the 60's/70's/early 80's and could care less about being approved by millions in our New Age virtual world. Funny. Real funny. And, did I say sad?
    Play live??? No, Man . . . make a video . . . . Marinero

    P.S.
    If we ever get past Covid, I promise you'll be the first person I'll invite to my next gig. However, a warning . . . you better bring a video camera or no one will believe you. M
    You have to understand. Yes, there needs to be proof. People come on the internet all the time and make claims about their background, accomplishments, abilities, and offer opinions. Some people present examples of their own playing, others don't. Since none of us really knows each other here, if you just say stuff, it's just that, talk. I hate saying that because if you're telling the truth you have a ton of experience, talent, accomplishments, and insight to offer. The lost-opportunity cost of ignoring such a voice is significant. On the other hand, if you are not telling the truth, then you're wasting our time.

    In the absence of chances to actually hear people play, and especially in the environment of total anonymity, I have no choice but to withhold my belief in someone until I can see what they can actually do. This is not personal, nor does it mean I see myself as better or whatever, though I made a decision in this group (a) to use my real name and (b) to post plenty of clips of my very modest musical performance so that folks here know exactly what they're getting when they listen to me talk.

    So you might be the real deal. You might be a world-class bull-sh***r.

    Based on your refusal to give examples, and total concealment of your identity (both fully your right, of course) we just don't know. That's sad, because if your self-presentation is true, it means a significant life in music and a sizable accomplishment goes unrecognized.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I made a decision in this group (a) to use my real name and (b) to post plenty of clips of my very modest musical performance so that folks here know exactly what they're getting when they listen to me talk.
    We know exactly what we get, Lawson: a gentleman and a scholar. I look forward to all your posts.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    We know exactly what we get, Lawson: a gentleman and a scholar. I look forward to all your posts.
    Well that's kind of you Rob. You're one of those "knowns" on the forum that I appreciate as well.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    You just can't help yourself; It must be an addiction.

    Can't you see that you're implying (yet again), that all of today jazz musicians, especially those under 40, are somehow lacking?

    E.g. instead of "these times are gone forever", why not post "today, it is a lot harder to find such an experience".
    There’s no implication. Everyone knows the best players who ever lived died. Their recordings tell us that’s true. You’ve got ears, and hear what they put on record. There’s no shame in saying the best can never be approached.

  6. #30

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    You’re not alone LS. I’ve often been curious to hear Marinero. But I get why he’s got no proof. It’s not like he was a professional musician. He’s simply had a rich musical life and has skills. I don’t doubt his explanations. Sounds reasonable for anyone who played in the 70’s and 80’s when recording yourself wasn’t a thing. Who knew there would one day be this thing called YouTube.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    There’s no implication. Everyone knows the best players who ever lived died. Their recordings tell us that’s true. You’ve got ears, and hear what they put on record. There’s no shame in saying the best can never be approached.
    I think there is a little bit of presumption in claiming something can "never" happen. They said nobody would ever run a 4 minute mile. Nobody thought the human body could survive going past 60 miles per hour. Nobody thought a plane would ever fly faster than the speed of sound. It's entirely possible that the great ones of the past will indeed be superseded by musicians yet to come, in both empirical and intuitive ways. But like the geniuses of yesteryear, their contemporaries likely will revile them and urge them to recapture the greatness of others.

    Frankly, on that Lionel Hampton clip, all I could think about was the racial stereotyping, the "happy negroes" performing for the white audiences, while they had to take their meals out behind the kitchen. I didn't enjoy watching that at all. The musicians were amazing, with tons of charisma, but they reminded me of sins for which we are still paying.

  8. #32

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    Lawson great points. I studied keyboard jazz harmony with Morris Nanton, RIP, he was living in Perth Amboy NJ at the time playing The Armory for you Jersey cats.
    Anyway he came up in the 40’s. His stories of yea the eat in the kitchen, use the back door made me wonder why Goodman and other white band leaders didn’t fight more.
    But worst I thought was the black band members (and other black travelers) were put into the first car or two of the train. Being in the South, and no A/C they had to keep all the windows open. As a result, the coal smoke from the steam engines flowed into the first couple cars.
    Lost Cause indeed.

    Hey once my hands and fingers stop shaking I promise I’ll record. Promise! Although I have one tape that survived Sandy of an all-Bach organ concert I did from 96. I know, wrong forum.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I think there is a little bit of presumption in claiming something can "never" happen. They said nobody would ever run a 4 minute mile. Nobody thought the human body could survive going past 60 miles per hour. Nobody thought a plane would ever fly faster than the speed of sound. It's entirely possible that the great ones of the past will indeed be superseded by musicians yet to come, in both empirical and intuitive ways. But like the geniuses of yesteryear, their contemporaries likely will revile them and urge them to recapture the greatness of others.

    Frankly, on that Lionel Hampton clip, all I could think about was the racial stereotyping, the "happy negroes" performing for the white audiences, while they had to take their meals out behind the kitchen. I didn't enjoy watching that at all. The musicians were amazing, with tons of charisma, but they reminded me of sins for which we are still paying.
    I’m reminded of those sins each time I see something of the 30’s through the 60’s. Frankly it’s been the burden that black people bear. It’s not what Jews experienced, but hate is hate. Pity since there were so many fine musicians who didn’t achieve the popular recognition that was served upon others. But they played the music because they loved it. Was there injustice? Hell yes!

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzkritter
    Lawson great points. I studied keyboard jazz harmony with Morris Nanton, RIP, he was living in Perth Amboy NJ at the time playing The Armory for you Jersey cats.
    Anyway he came up in the 40’s. His stories of yea the eat in the kitchen, use the back door made me wonder why Goodman and other white band leaders didn’t fight more.
    But worst I thought was the black band members (and other black travelers) were put into the first car or two of the train. Being in the South, and no A/C they had to keep all the windows open. As a result, the coal smoke from the steam engines flowed into the first couple cars.
    Lost Cause indeed.

    Hey once my hands and fingers stop shaking I promise I’ll record. Promise! Although I have one tape that survived Sandy of an all-Bach organ concert I did from 96. I know, wrong forum.
    Something else I never knew about you JK. Piano player? Go on with your bad self! We’re in the minority here.

  11. #35

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    Thank you Sir! But no, not a moment of piano study. But classical/church organ since i was 8th grade. Played my first services that year. My undergrad is in classical organ performance (!). Talk about useless lol.
    but no…. I have NO touch for a piano. Like most pure organists, we play on\off switches not a responsive keyboard. To us, a two beat half note must be held).
    Morris and i worked on 2-5-1 open voicing unlike the close voices on a piano, tried to translate to guitar.
    His jazz blues ‘Battle Hymn if the Republic” i will never ever forget.
    But i didnt tape it.
    Jk
    aka dave adams

  12. #36

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    "So you might be the real deal. You might be a world-class bull-sh***r.

    Based on your refusal to give examples, and total concealment of your identity (both fully your right, of course) we just don't know."
    Lawson-Stone


    Hi, L,
    You've made some serious, unsupported allegations about me without knowing who I am and what I've done in my life. I realize it is difficult for some people to understand why others(especially in my generation) would wish to remain anonymous on a blog site that reaches millions of people worldwide and provide personal information about yourself when you're not promoting a video channel or trying to become the next virtual star. And you, and others, have made this request numerous times ,in the past, and I have given my valid reasons ,repeatedly, in detail. So, let me be as brief as possible and if you're still interested, you may refer to my numerous previous posted remarks for further clarity since it is apparent you have extreme angst about my desire for privacy.
    1.) If you, or others, are disturbed by my comments about music, why not put me on your "Ignore" list. This is a convenient tool to protect those sensitive souls or "doubting Thomas's" and provide you the relief you need from having your naiive, unwarranted comments and ideas challenged. However, this is part and parcel to all closet Fascists who hope to destroy serious discussions of a subject when they don't like the narrative and seek to protect their "group think" by any means possible. As a matter of record, I have never used this feature on JGF. In my opinion, it is patently dishonest for the person who uses it. If I hide my head in the sand . . . maybe it will go away.
    2.) I didn't join JGF to have my music critiqued since if I wanted feedback, I have several close friends who are world-class performers/teachers who will give me what I need. And, to this day, I continue to get valuable insights from them although it is ,admittedly, for my Classical playing rather than Jazz/Bossa. And, I would imagine there are also other experienced, professional musicians on this Forum that choose not to post a video/private information and, perhaps, they have the same reasons as I do. Perhaps, not. However, this should not matter as I am a voice of one . . . not of many.
    3.) And, for the absurdity of your remarks, since you believe I am dishonest, what would prevent me from posting a recording that was not played by me but by someone else? And, how would you really know? Would that pass the litmus test for you? Or, would you ,then, need a blood sample or DNA test?
    4.) So, the lion-share of comments I've made on this forum could only be made/known by a working, professional musician. I
    challenge anyone on this site to provide any practical/theoretical remarks I've made that would be questioned for veracity by another professional including the many technical discussions for which I've contributed and the resultant "thanks" from those who were asking serious questions about music. And, as I mentioned in a previous post, unless you were a famous musician/band in the 50's/60's/70's, it was very unusual for your music to be recorded for the majority of working musicians across the country who played bars, lounges, clubs, festivals and the famous Holiday Inn circuit which was a great steady gig for those who could travel. And, for my solo work in the last 30 years, who records a guitarist at a bistro, wedding, wine festival, or private party when you're nothing more than pretty curtains on the walls? The bride's grandma. Uncle Pete after 6 martinis? Bottom line: I played for pleasure and to GET PAID.
    Finally, I will continue to post my honest, experienced-based thoughts of a lifetime of "LIVE PAID" performances for this excellent free speech music forum but, honestly, have thought about posting a current music video for my loyal detractors . . . but then, again . . . I doubt they'd know the difference between the organ grinder and the monkey. . . and as old Willie said "and there lies the rub!" Good luck, Lawson on your recovery . . . and remember . . . click the "ignore button" before it's too late to be saved!

    Play live . . . What me????? . . . . Marinero


    Attachment 83898



  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    There’s no implication. Everyone knows the best players who ever lived died. Their recordings tell us that’s true. You’ve got ears, and hear what they put on record. There’s no shame in saying the best can never be approached.
    Well I'm glad I'm not part of this "everyone" you claim. I support the concept of the best is yet to come.

  14. #38

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    .

    Sent from my LM-X420 using Tapatalk

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "So you might be the real deal. You might be a world-class bull-sh***r.

    Based on your refusal to give examples, and total concealment of your identity (both fully your right, of course) we just don't know."
    Lawson-Stone


    Hi, L,
    You've made some serious, unsupported allegations about me without knowing who I am and what I've done in my life. I realize it is difficult for some people to understand why others(especially in my generation) would wish to remain anonymous on a blog site that reaches millions of people worldwide and provide personal information about yourself when you're not promoting a video channel or trying to become the next virtual star. And you, and others, have made this request numerous times ,in the past, and I have given my valid reasons ,repeatedly, in detail. So, let me be as brief as possible and if you're still interested, you may refer to my numerous previous posted remarks for further clarity since it is apparent you have extreme angst about my desire for privacy.
    1.) If you, or others, are disturbed by my comments about music, why not put me on your "Ignore" list. This is a convenient tool to protect those sensitive souls or "doubting Thomas's" and provide you the relief you need from having your naiive, unwarranted comments and ideas challenged. However, this is part and parcel to all closet Fascists who hope to destroy serious discussions of a subject when they don't like the narrative and seek to protect their "group think" by any means possible. As a matter of record, I have never used this feature on JGF. In my opinion, it is patently dishonest for the person who uses it. If I hide my head in the sand . . . maybe it will go away.
    2.) I didn't join JGF to have my music critiqued since if I wanted feedback, I have several close friends who are world-class performers/teachers who will give me what I need. And, to this day, I continue to get valuable insights from them although it is ,admittedly, for my Classical playing rather than Jazz/Bossa. And, I would imagine there are also other experienced, professional musicians on this Forum that choose not to post a video/private information and, perhaps, they have the same reasons as I do. Perhaps, not. However, this should not matter as I am a voice of one . . . not of many.
    3.) And, for the absurdity of your remarks, since you believe I am dishonest, what would prevent me from posting a recording that was not played by me but by someone else? And, how would you really know? Would that pass the litmus test for you? Or, would you ,then, need a blood sample or DNA test?
    4.) So, the lion-share of comments I've made on this forum could only be made/known by a working, professional musician. I
    challenge anyone on this site to provide any practical/theoretical remarks I've made that would be questioned for veracity by another professional including the many technical discussions for which I've contributed and the resultant "thanks" from those who were asking serious questions about music. And, as I mentioned in a previous post, unless you were a famous musician/band in the 50's/60's/70's, it was very unusual for your music to be recorded for the majority of working musicians across the country who played bars, lounges, clubs, festivals and the famous Holiday Inn circuit which was a great steady gig for those who could travel. And, for my solo work in the last 30 years, who records a guitarist at a bistro, wedding, wine festival, or private party when you're nothing more than pretty curtains on the walls? The bride's grandma. Uncle Pete after 6 martinis? Bottom line: I played for pleasure and to GET PAID.
    Finally, I will continue to post my honest, experienced-based thoughts of a lifetime of "LIVE PAID" performances for this excellent free speech music forum but, honestly, have thought about posting a current music video for my loyal detractors . . . but then, again . . . I doubt they'd know the difference between the organ grinder and the monkey. . . and as old Willie said "and there lies the rub!" Good luck, Lawson on your recovery . . . and remember . . . click the "ignore button" before it's too late to be saved!

    Play live . . . What me????? . . . . Marinero


    Attachment 83898


    Recovery? What am I recovering from?

    This generation talk you make... I"m 66 years old, so I guess we are likely both in the same generation.

    I come from a profession where we sign our work and put it out there for the world to evaluate, good, bad, or indifferent. I expect the same from others, if they expect me to take their perspectives seriously.

    I have no idea why you wrote this little dissertation at me. All I said, in a nutshell, was you might be Joe Pass Back from the Dead, but we can't know it because you refuse any access to your music. You're totally within your rights to do that, but you cannot expect anyone to just believe you have this lifetime of experience and authority when you provide no way for anyone to know.

    I hope you are everything you claim to be. You however, are the only one who knows, and so for us who don't know, we're just in the dark. Your words fall into place alongside those of amateurs, pros, cranks, poseurs, and artists. No way to know.

    Nothing would please me more than to be wrong on this. Seriously.

    But reluctantly, I likely will put you on "Ignore." I haven't because I hang on to the possibility you are exactly what you claim to be. But maybe it's all for the best if I ignore you. Sorry.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, L,
    Is that the litmus test? The proof? […] to your intimation . . . is that how one validates a musician? Or, his past experiences? A recording?
    Well, in 2021, yes it is. And it goes back for at least a couple of decades to Usenet news groups about music. You're talking to a worldwide virtual audience, most of whom cannot come and hear you play in person. We live in a world where anyone can anonymously pontificate and pretend to an expertise that they don't in fact they have. Social media is full of this and forums like this are just another form of social media. That is just the way of it. People who can demonstrate that expertise immediately gain a lot of credibility.

    I did not get the sense that Lawson was in any way challenging you; perhaps you have had other interactions with him on the forum that lead you to believe that, but at least seeing this exchange in isolation it seems to me that you overreacted quite a bit. That in turn tends to fall towards the Shakespearean observation about protesting too much, fairly or not.

    There are a number of gigging musicians on this forum who tell people who they are, make videos available so that they can share their music with the rest of us, etc. They tend to be pretty well respected around here. Most of us here are passionate hobbyists and/or people who play music as a fun side job rather than as their profession. If you don't want to post videos, clips, etc., that's fine and up to you; but if you are going to adopt a superior tone towards others here based on your experience and presumably skills- which to my reading you often do, whether you mean to or not- you might want to have some way to back that up.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Well, in 2021, yes it is. And it goes back for at least a couple of decades to Usenet news groups about music. You're talking to a worldwide virtual audience, most of whom cannot come and hear you play in person. We live in a world where anyone can anonymously pontificate and pretend to an expertise that they don't in fact they have. Social media is full of this and forums like this are just another form of social media. That is just the way of it. People who can demonstrate that expertise immediately gain a lot of credibility.

    I did not get the sense that Lawson was in any way challenging you; perhaps you have had other interactions with him on the forum that lead you to believe that, but at least seeing this exchange in isolation it seems to me that you overreacted quite a bit. That in turn tends to fall towards the Shakespearean observation about protesting too much, fairly or not.

    There are a number of gigging musicians on this forum who tell people who they are, make videos available so that they can share their music with the rest of us, etc. They tend to be pretty well respected around here. Most of us here are passionate hobbyists and/or people who play music as a fun side job rather than as their profession. If you don't want to post videos, clips, etc., that's fine and up to you; but if you are going to adopt a superior tone towards others here based on your experience and presumably skills- which to my reading you often do, whether you mean to or not- you might want to have some way to back that up.
    I'd just add... I'm no great player. My motto is "I don't make history, I just try to make music." Surely under God there is room for caring mediocrity, and that's my game.

    That said, I've posted a lot on this forum, and only one person, one out of all the clips, critiques, discussions, and interaction, just one, was unkind and inappropriate. I have received a significant education on here from the helpful, sometimes pretty negative, but always well intended comments on my halting efforts.

    Any player who can sustain a decent jazz line will find, I think, a warm welcome on here for their recording efforts. That does not an obligation make, but it can establish a person as a helpful voice in a world of ranting and posing.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    There’s no implication. Everyone knows the best players who ever lived died. Their recordings tell us that’s true. You’ve got ears, and hear what they put on record. There’s no shame in saying the best can never be approached.
    I have to disagree. If that were true, there would be no point in continuing to move forward with the art. Why pursue something if we could not somehow go beyond that which came before us?

    Is Ben Monder a worse player than Joe Pass was? (Ben would probably say yes, and Joe himself would have said he wasn't as good as some of those who came before him like Django). Monder is an extraordinarily proficient and creative musician who is still living and still making amazing music. I just listened to "At Night" with Theo Blechmann and Ben's "Day by Day" CD in the last two days and was astonished anew by both. What about Pasquale Grasso? Peter Bernstein? John Scofield? Mike Stern? Are these musicians all deficient and unable to measure up to their predecessors?

    Yes, Charlie Parker and John Coltrane and Miles Davis were all incredibly brilliant musicians who stood on the edge of the art form and reported back what they heard. But I must disagree that they are the apex and everything after that is downhill. If that were true, then we should all stop playing this music. They were generational musicians but more generations are coming.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Recovery? What am I recovering from?

    This generation talk you make... I"m 66 years old, so I guess we are likely both in the same generation.

    I come from a profession where we sign our work and put it out there for the world to evaluate, good, bad, or indifferent. I expect the same from others, if they expect me to take their perspectives seriously.

    I have no idea why you wrote this little dissertation at me. All I said, in a nutshell, was you might be Joe Pass Back from the Dead, but we can't know it because you refuse any access to your music. You're totally within your rights to do that, but you cannot expect anyone to just believe you have this lifetime of experience and authority when you provide no way for anyone to know.

    I hope you are everything you claim to be. You however, are the only one who knows, and so for us who don't know, we're just in the dark. Your words fall into place alongside those of amateurs, pros, cranks, poseurs, and artists. No way to know.

    Nothing would please me more than to be wrong on this. Seriously.

    But reluctantly, I likely will put you on "Ignore." I haven't because I hang on to the possibility you are exactly what you claim to be. But maybe it's all for the best if I ignore you. Sorry.
    What are you apologizing for? The whole forum's had him on Ignore for the last year! He's like the Lord Valve of the JGF.

  20. #44

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  21. #45

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    "Well, in 2021, yes it is. And it goes back for at least a couple of decades to Usenet news groups about music. You're talking to a worldwide virtual audience, most of whom cannot come and hear you play in person. We live in a world where anyone can anonymously pontificate and pretend to an expertise that they don't in fact they have. Social media is full of this and forums like this are just another form of social media. That is just the way of it. People who can demonstrate that expertise immediately gain a lot of credibility." Cunamara


    Simply stated, some people just don't get it. And, that's fine. They cannot accept that the entire world doesn't think the same way and they are always surrounded by those who scrupulously follow and do not deviate from the demands of the Herd. But, that's their problem . . . not mine. Sometimes, I wonder why I bother to reply to this nonsense since it doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks. I have lived a full and interesting life. Period. That's all that matters.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  22. #46

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    Great to see Wes in that clip, but it saddens me to realize that the band thought they had to prance around like that to ingratiate themselves with the audience.

    As for the unfortunate digression in this thread, I know of nobody who was playing back in the 70s and 80s who doesn't have some kind of recording of their playing. Cassette players go back to the 60s! And these days it's just a case of pointing your phone in your general direction, hitting record, uploading to your free YT account and posting a link here, for all to see. Like Jimmy Bruno does from home, for example. It's up to you, but I'd say don't waste your time, gents!

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    What are you apologizing for? The whole forum's had him on Ignore for the last year! He's like the Lord Valve of the JGF.
    You do have a point there. I do hate to use the Ignore list. But some people earn it, and when they do, it's the thing to use.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "Well, in 2021, yes it is. And it goes back for at least a couple of decades to Usenet news groups about music. You're talking to a worldwide virtual audience, most of whom cannot come and hear you play in person. We live in a world where anyone can anonymously pontificate and pretend to an expertise that they don't in fact they have. Social media is full of this and forums like this are just another form of social media. That is just the way of it. People who can demonstrate that expertise immediately gain a lot of credibility." Cunamara


    Simply stated, some people just don't get it. And, that's fine. They cannot accept that the entire world doesn't think the same way and they are always surrounded by those who scrupulously follow and do not deviate from the demands of the Herd. But, that's their problem . . . not mine. Sometimes, I wonder why I bother to reply to this nonsense since it doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks. I have lived a full and interesting life. Period. That's all that matters.
    Play live . . . Marinero
    Ah. Yer an iconoclast. Gotcha.

    The demands of the Herd, yup. Woody was a tough taskmaster. Best to avoid that sort of thing.