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cool...i really dig that album too...the legendary chess blues bass/composer willie dixon plays bass....space flight was greens second recording session...tho it was the first released...it was cut in june 1960
Originally Posted by monkmiles
about 6 months earlier (dec '59) his very first recording session was with saxman jimmy forrest...tho those tracks weren't released until years later...besides green you have harold mabern on piano and the great elvin jones on drums...not a bad lineup for a first recording!!
dog it...
cheers
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03-19-2021 06:40 PM
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Like Doctor Jeff said: who knows. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But I was going to mention Jim Hall as someone that I predict will be forgotten. In 50 years, I just don't see someone like him being mentioned by anyone other than jazz musicians or jazz nerds.
Again, who knows, surely not me. (but the young guys I turn on to these great; if their children don't listen to those cats, I have failed)!
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In 50 years, jazz will only be mentioned by jazz nerds period.
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For me, there's three I always go back to
Wes
Grant Green
Charlie Christian
80% of what you need to know to play jazz guitar (if not more) can be studied by listening deeply to those three musicians. They were all sought after by horn players, and they influenced all that came after.
Grant Green isn't an influence? Try asking Peter Bernstein, Graham Dechter, Bobby Broom, and Ed Cherry about Grant Green. The organ trio sound knew other guitar greats. Billy Butler, Kenny Burrell, Bill Jennings, George Benson... mixing the old with the new there.
But what Grant Green did with organ trios and organ outfits in general. He owned that sound. Love Wes. Have a poster of him smiling on my office wall. But Grant Green owned that organ sound.
The Blue Note guitar sound... he owned that too. Love Kenny Burrell, but that Blue Note sound was all Grant Green.
The more you listen to Grant Green, the deeper you get into his legacy, the more you understand what he actually contributed to the jazz guitar legacy.
Screw that! The more you listen to Grant Green, the more you understand what he gave to music--some of which we all take for granted (see what I did there?
)
And yes, he could DEFINITELY comp!
But lemme say something to make an odd comparison. The way Freddie Green played four to the floor, he drove that Basie band. Well... the way that Grant Green played melodies and soloed, he drove whatever band he was a part of during his day. You listen close to the way Grant Green plays and you notice a few things.
His notes are crisp and intentional. Long for effect. Short for effect. His single notes serve as one step in the rhythm section and one step in the soloist's spotlight.
The way he uses space... Grant Green is one of those masterful musicians who makes space sound amazing. He makes that space sound THICK. Like some type of humid air that you just wanna sit in and sink into your wicker chair. That space that hugs you. Listen, you'll hear it.
The way he uses motifs. He does A LOT with a little. As a result, he tells a story. No pyrotechnics for the crowd. A story teller.
The way he plays horn lines. That articulation. That TAKE NO PRISIONERS kinda SNAP to everything.
The way he draws from the blues and gospel, no shame--he knows he's a guitarist and he's DAMN proud of it
Oh, I forgot one. RHYTHMIC PRIMACY. Grant Green reminds up of what has now made the rounds at the forum. That is, the end all be all is the rhythm. The feel. Hard to sell your lines and phases if the rhythm and feel isn't there. I'm switching between Grant Green and some Hip Hop for a thought experiment that I got going with a trumpet player I befriended on Youtube (during C19, make those connections). Grant Green sounds just as rhythmic and laid back as a top Hip Hop artist. Had he been alive now, we might have seen a collaboration with A Tribe Called Quest or Robert Glasper. Grant Green was forward looking as well
Just a few thoughts to nibble on
Last edited by PickingMyEars; 03-20-2021 at 01:10 AM.
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If anyone here uses YouTube Music, I started a playlist of "Grant Green as a side man" here: Your browser is deprecated. Please upgrade.
I know I'm missing stuff, this is just what I've gotten to and found so far. So feel free to give me a shout on what I can add (that is available on YouTube Music of course).
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I think the thing that will make people remember him is his sound and blues sense--In other words he's very direct and easy to understand, you don't have to be a 'serious' jazz listener to dig him. Guys like Hall and Kessel though very different from each other are a little more of a sophisticated listen. .Green probably appeals more to the casual listener if I had to guess, the younger crowd that dubbed his music as 'acid jazz' are among them. Grant was heavily blues influenced (not that Hall and Kessel weren't) but his style is just more relatable to the average listener.
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dunno what is available on youtube music. but you need the stuff with george braith. and the record with gloria coleman. and everything with horace parlan. there is much more with papa lou as well. the harold vick BN is exellent. there is a nice one with joe bebop carroll that has grant soloing over sunny side of the st. dont sleep on the two johnny hodges either. Originally Posted by monkmiles
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You said the whole thing in a nutshell. “His notes are crisp and intentional.” Wow. Couldn’t have said it better. Originally Posted by PickingMyEars
For me, there's three I always go back to
Wes
Grant Green
Charlie Christian
80% of what you need to know to play jazz guitar (if not more) can be studied by listening deeply to those three musicians. They were all sought after by horn players, and they influenced all that came after.
Grant Green isn't an influence? Try asking Peter Bernstein, Graham Dechter, Bobby Broom, and Ed Cherry about Grant Green. The organ trio sound knew other guitar greats. Billy Butler, Kenny Burrell, Bill Jennings, George Benson... mixing the old with the new there.
But what Grant Green did with organ trios and organ outfits in general. He owned that sound. Love Wes. Have a poster of him smiling on my office wall. But Grant Green owned that organ sound.
The Blue Note guitar sound... he owned that too. Love Kenny Burrell, but that Blue Note sound was all Grant Green.
The more you listen to Grant Green, the deeper you get into his legacy, the more you understand what he actually contributed to the jazz guitar legacy.
Screw that! The more you listen to Grant Green, the more you understand what he gave to music--some of which we all take for granted (see what I did there?)
And yes, he could DEFINITELY comp!
But lemme say something to make an odd comparison. The way Freddie Green played four to the floor, he drove that Basie band. Well... the way that Grant Green played melodies and soloed, he drove whatever band he was a part of during his day. You listen close to the way Grant Green plays and you notice a few things.
His notes are crisp and intentional. Long for effect. Short for effect. His single notes serve as one step in the rhythm section and one step in the soloist's spotlight.
The way he uses space... Grant Green is one of those masterful musicians who makes space sound amazing. He makes that space sound THICK. Like some type of humid air that you just wanna sit in and sink into your wicker chair. That space that hugs you. Listen, you'll hear it.
The way he uses motifs. He does A LOT with a little. As a result, he tells a story. No pyrotechnics for the crowd. A story teller.
The way he plays horn lines. That articulation. That TAKE NO PRISIONERS kinda SNAP to everything.
The way he draws from the blues and gospel, no shame--he knows he's a guitarist and he's DAMN proud of it
Oh, I forgot one. RHYTHMIC PRIMACY. Grant Green reminds up of what has now made the rounds at the forum. That is, the end all be all is the rhythm. The feel. Hard to sell your lines and phases if the rhythm and feel isn't there. I'm switching between Grant Green and some Hip Hop for a thought experiment that I got going with a trumpet player I befriended on Youtube (during C19, make those connections). Grant Green sounds just as rhythmic and laid back as a top Hip Hop artist. Had he been alive now, we might have seen a collaboration with A Tribe Called Quest or Robert Glasper. Grant Green was forward looking as well
Just a few thoughts to nibble on
I appreciate what you said about hip hop. There’s a pretty good documentary on The Notorious BIG (not RBG LOL) on Netflix right now. He was schooled by jazzman Donald Harrison, who lived in the neighborhood. Biggie learned rhythm from listening to Max Roach and Elvin Jones. It’s all about the rhythm.
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You're far too generous, J . . . with less than 1.4% of music listenership, I think Jazz is in its death throes now. My non-musical friends are all well-educated. Some listen to Classical and none of them listen to Jazz. I believe that Jazz lost its audience when it went from the dance floors of Stan Kenton, Benny Goodman, Count Basie, Glenn Miller, Woody Herman, and Duke Ellington to the ethereal venues of Coltrane, Archie Shepp, Monk, Mingus, Ornette Coleman, and Bird. It became parlor music for the musically sophisticated with a large portion of its audiences comprised of varying levels of musicians. I used to go to Joe Segal's Jazz Showcase in Chicago on a regular basis in the '60's/'70's and probably half the audience was comprised of musicians I knew personally or who played around Chicago during those years. And, that's not counting music students! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So, sorry for the thread drift but J touched on a very real potential, if not reality, for Jazz music. And, in reality, the biggest resurgence of Jazz came with the "Smooth Jazz" movement where Jazzers played popular songs with a Jazz feel and the people responded. Of course, these musicians were much maligned by the Jazz purists as was the case with George Benson, Kenny G, Grover Washington, David Sandborn, Gerald Albright but they brought many people to the door of Jazz and reaped great financial reward, steady work, and notoriety for some very fine musicians. The beat goes on . . . so grab the one you love or grab the one you're with and get the hell on the dance floor!
Play live . . . Marinero
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Kessel was known for his accompanying before he was recognized as a jazz soloist. His recordings with singers were a veritable conservatory for jazz guitar accompaniment. He was very rhythmic as well as harmonically advanced and quite melodic in his approach to backing a song. Whether any real jazz guitarist will remain in history to the non-jazz audience is a real question, even now. Pat Metheny appears to have the most recordings sold by a jazz guitarist, but Kenny G beats him by thousands if not millions, and there are a lot of folks that have the misconception that G is a jazz player. The American culture has become plastic and throwaway, so there's not a lot of hope for the giants to survive in the collective consciousness.
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Played a gig with a organ player from Scotland once, doing what I was used to do, modern voicings, comping freely rhythmically, etc....
After the first song him shaking head turning over to me: Man, I can't play like that, your comping is confusing me... you know Grant Green?
Me: Of course I do!
(Secretly thinking: But that guy never comps, I have most of his records.)
Him: Yeah, so do the Grant Green thing (hums a |1 2+ |1 2+ | rhythm)
Didn't dare to do anything else that night
| 1 ..2+ | 1 ..2+|
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the great saxman lou donaldson is generally credited with "discovering" grant...he got him involved with blue note records in nyc...this is from an early session...one of my fave donaldson lps...good gracious....with big john patton on organ (also very interesting)
the holy ghost- showing lou's beautiful southern (north carolina) gospel roots
cheers
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which oddly enough sounds like he's already using the 330 on. makes me doubt the date of the sam lazar/willie dixon session Originally Posted by neatomic
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from back of original copy of lazar space flight lp
also date given in the green family bio of grant
cheers
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Is there a Grant song or session that demonstrates this comping style well? I don't recognize the description. Originally Posted by DonEsteban
Him: Yeah, so do the Grant Green thing (hums a |1 2+ |1 2+ | rhythm)
Didn't dare to do anything else that night
| 1 ..2+ | 1 ..2+|
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I think we've all convinced ourselves that "Grant Green" doesn't comp so much that we've learned to ignore the times when Grant Green actually comps--and it's more than we give credit.
Neatomic's post from that Lou Donaldson album has compin' in it.
A lot of Grant Green's albums with organ have compin'.
That record with Ike Quebec comes to mind as well. Gotta get back to work, but that album Blue and Sentimental by Ike has a lot of Grant Green compin'. Can somebody post it for me?
Don't listen to the "jazz experts/ critics", listen with your ears.
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here you go with quebec's blue and sentimental...title track
and here's a quote
"To hear [Grant] comp [i.e., play rhythm guitar] behind a soloist you have to check his sideman dates, like Blue and Sentimental by Ike Quebec..." Sharony Andrews Green (1999) Grant Green: Rediscovering the Forgotten Genius of Jazz Guitar, Backbeat Books/Hal Leonard, p. 224
cheers
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There's some real takeaways, I guess.
Grant comped...or didn't. But clearly there was a choice made. I'm guessing he made it, a lot of the time, at least on records he led.
Seems like Grant was very good at understanding what the music called for. Like his drive here, with Larry Young.
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on the opposite end, there's an interesting lp by multi saxman george braith...laughing soul...with eddie diehl doin all the compin/rhythm work and grant just doin some fills and solos
you can clearly hear them both on this one...cantelope woman....(sic) as in can't elope woman!
big john patton on organ
(u-tuber got title wrong!)
cheers
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Hmmm I assumed that was a play on Herbie's songs Canteloupe Island and Watermelon Man. It's got that same groove. Originally Posted by neatomic
There's a dad joke about the Watermelon asking the Canteloupe to run away and get married, and the reply is "Sorry, I canteloupe..."
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from og lp...written by the drummer ben dixon
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cheers
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Organ solo:
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by thealps
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Oh yeah, he's a great comper. His comping behind the bass solos on the Green Street album are great lessons in comping, not just for bass solos, but in general. I wish more piano players would dig into that album to lighten up their comping.
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