Bird and Bud

[Petimar]

Jazz historians, I have a question.

When I transcribe and analyze Bird and Bud Powell, I see an lot of similarity. Of course being a Barry Harris method devote, what he teaches was very common in the improvisation of both players.

Does anyone know if they developed independently of each other, or whether one heard the other and developed an similar style based on that?

Not important, I was just curious... Thanks in advance!

[Petimar]

No one?

[grahambop]

If you read the various books and online sources they usually tend to say things like ‘Bud Powell translated Bird’s approach to the piano’, so the implication is that Bird developed his style first.

That is also what I have always assumed, but I don’t know for sure.

[djg]

Does anyone know if they developed independently of each other, or whether one heard the other and developed an similar style based on that?

i'm afraid the short answer is "both". i assume there are podcasts by phil schaap (god bless him) with the long answer O

[neatomic]

ny'er bud powell was a protege of monks...although powell was already versed in the fats waller/ art tatum school...but it was monk who introduced him to bird n diz....they all had their unique talents, but together they created the birth of be-bop

in actuality tho, bird and bud only recorded one studio session together..four tracks in 1947..with miles davis & max roach

donna lee was supposedly a miles line

cheers

ps- longtime phil schaap wkcr bird flight listener!

[Doctor Jeff]

I think one would have to look at the timeline as far as who met who when, and where they were in their musical journey. That would take someone with more time than me to figure out.

The popular idea is that Bird woodshedded like crazy and emerged on the scene as a fully formed voice.

Based on the above recording, it really sounds like Bud is trying to emulate Bird’s horn phrasing, the way that Barney Kessel and Jimmy Ramey emulated horn playing.

I don’t really hear it the other way, and in general I think horn players are sui generis and mainly learn from other horn players, but I could be wrong.

I also think that bebop started as a horn and rhythm thing, where guitar and piano initially were just extensions of the rhythm, but then gradually developed as bebop voices of their own, (mainly) emulating horn lines but at times bringing in their own style (Joe Pass’ stride influences for instance).

[Petimar]

I assumed Bud learned from Bird, sure sounds like to to me. Obviously both were generational talents and someone that good probably does not take long to learn an improvising language.

Thanks all!