The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    How do you tune? Serious question. Do you use harmonics, tune straight up 440 to a tuner, tune to a piano if you're with a group. As a lap steel player, I have the luxury of tuning to just intonation and using the bar to intonate by ear. When I play guitar, I'm stuck with Equal Temperament like everyone else.

    Here's an interesting article from Johnny Smith on his tuning method:

    The Johnny Smith Stringing & Tuning Method | MarkWeinGuitarLessons.com
    Last edited by AndyV; 12-19-2020 at 07:41 AM.

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  3. #2

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    well if you are in a group, you have to tune to the piano...otherwise, even if you tune your guitar perfectly to 440 A...if the piano is out, it's going to sound way off

    cheers

  4. #3

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    Thank you, that was useful and straightforward. Is there a second page?

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    well if you are in a group, you have to tune to the piano...otherwise, even if you tune your guitar perfectly to 440 A...if the piano is out, it's going to sound way off

    cheers
    When I play with a piano player I use my tuner and adjust my tuner apps, up or down to the piano. Then I used the tuner to tune my guitar.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    When I play with a piano player I use my tuner and adjust my tuner apps, up or down to the piano. Then I used the tuner to tune my guitar.
    haha..very 21st century!!

    gettin it right is all that matters...by ear or by gear!

    cheers

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzPadd
    Thank you, that was useful and straightforward. Is there a second page?
    The Johnny Smith Stringing & Tuning Method | MarkWeinGuitarLessons.com

  8. #7

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    Johnny Smith was obviously a very methodical man. My old guitar teacher had taken some lessons with him and walked me through that same technique for stringing and tuning the instrument.

    An additional tuning check that I use is comparing the middle four strings to the open E on the first string; this checks for intonation fretting higher up the strings. That doesn't work for the low E string, however.

  9. #8

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    Johnny told me about his stringing method in the '80's. Always use it, works great, really simple: two sharp bends, a few wraps, no overlaps.

    Danny W.

  10. #9

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    I’ve always used that stringing method. I guess great minds think alike! ;-)

    As far as tuning to the piano, I’ve never played with an out of tune piano. My bandmate is compulsive about keeping his baby grand in tune—interesting stories about his longtime tuner with a serious mental health issue though, and of course not necessary with the digitals we usually use on gigs.

    We broke down and traded our old baby grand (something of a family inheritance) for a Yamaha digital last year. Best thing we ever did, cause that piano (which I don’t play and my girlfriend rarely does) was taking up a LOT of space and was a pain to keep humidified and tuned—we used the same crazy tuner as my friend, and each tuning trip was an expensive and exhausting experience.

    And thank god for electronic tuners. I think it has improved my guitar enjoyment at least 50%.

  11. #10

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    In my former life as a saxophonist, I had to rely on guitarists to be in tune which was always a problem since I could only tune up/down a quarter tone with my mouth piece. If they didn't bother to get it right, it always started a fight. I don't remember digital tuners in those days so it was the old A440 tuning fork with relative tuning.
    Later, when I played in Jazz/Rock big bands, I had some excellent B3 players who made life easier for the horns and everyone was in step. Today, as a guitarist ,again, I use a digital tuner for harmonic A, 6th string and use relative tuning(harmonics) for the rest. Then, before playing, I recheck all octaves at the 12th fret as well as a few octave harmonics at the fifth position before the first note is played. If I'm playing Classical, I usually have to tweak after a couple pieces but with the Gibson, I'm usually good for a whole set(45 minutes) if the strings are fresh. Whether Classical or Electric, fresh strings that have had time to stretch are essential to playing in tune. Most guitar "players" I knew in the past did not have a set schedule for string change. Strangely, I get 20 hours play time on both my D'Addario EJ46HT (Classical) and EPN115 Pure Nickel strings(Gibson) before they start having intonation problems. It takes 5 hours play time before they are fully stretched.
    As an aside, I was told by two luthiers that playing dead strings on a "QUALITY" Classical Guitar was not a good practice since it will ultimately effect its tone. I think the same would be true for a "QUALITY" acoustic/semi-acoustic electrics as well but that's another contentious discussion. I hope this helps.

    Play live . . . and in tune . . . Marinero

  12. #11

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    I've played with out-of-tune piano. We showed up once back in the late 60s to play a New Year's Eve dance at a country club in a small town up in the Texas Panhandle. The piano was so out of tune that the horn players had to play in a different key than the piano to be close. We tuned to the piano, but it was a train wreck. I've never heard a piano that much out of tune before or since. It was a grim night, but we got through it.

  13. #12

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    Thanks to AndyV, again! I reprinted the excellent article and am going to use this method on my string change for the Gibson in the next few days. I would like to add a personal observation about quality-made acoustic-stringed instruments that, IMO, cannot be overstated. There is no such thing as a perfectly tuned string instrument whether it is a Guarneri or Stradivarius . . . or a Gibson or D'Angelico and this is the real challenge for the serious musician. When we become intimate with an instrument, we discover its nature, personality and its shortcomings. And, by discovering these differences, we learn to adjust our playing to minimize these errant idiosyncrasies for a finished musical product that is pleasing to the ears. After all, they are living, breathing objects that carry our musical message and voice to those who will listen.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  14. #13
    You're welcome!
    In the steel guitar world, how to tune is a constant arena for arguments and people use all kinds of tweaks to their electronic tuners to get their pedal steels to behave. Thinking about the math of all this makes my head hurt! Here some detailed information courtesy of Dave Magram.

    "Many years ago, when I was learning to play standard guitar, I asked a very knowledgeable musician why it was so difficult to tune the B string. Here is my recollection of his explanation--which may help shed some light on the mysteries of musical scales, math, and tuning.


    My musician friend explained that musical scales are based on very precise mathematical relationships. He said that the purest scale--the one that sounded the most pleasing--was described by the ancient Greek mathematician Pythagoras (of triangle fame), who worked out the exact mathematical ratios between the root tone and the other tones in the scale. These ratios can be seen on the Wikipedia entry for Pythagorean tuning.


    Where the trouble starts:
    For each key, the Pythagorean tuning produces a sweet-sounding scale that is very pleasing to the ear. However, when these mathematical ratios are applied to other keys, the resulting note frequencies don't always match up between the different keys. (WARNING: A few math calculations lie ahead.)


    For example, using A (440) as the root tone, one can find:
    - the minor second (Bb) by multiplying 440 times 1.053 = Bb (464)
    - the major second (B) by multiplying 440 times 1.125 = B (495)
    - the major third (C#) by multiplying 440 times 1.265 = C# (557)


    However, using Bb (464) as the root tone, one finds:
    - the minor second (B) by multiplying 464 times 1.053 = B (4 89 )
    - the minor third (C#) by multiplying 464 times 1.185 = C# (550)


    As you can see, there's a big mismatch (about seven cents) between the B notes (495 vs. 488) and the C# notes (557 vs. 549) in those two keys.
    There are similar large mismatches between the F# notes (743 vs. 733) and the G# notes (835 vs. 824) in the key of A and Bb respectively.
    In other words, a G# note in one key may be as much as 11 cents different from a G# note in another key! This means that a piano using true Pythagorean tuning would need around 150 piano keys, instead of 88.


    Because of these mismatches, until the 1700s composers only wrote in a few related keys in which the note frequencies matched But many composers wanted to compose in more than just a few keys. So Pietro Aron proposed that compromises be made by tempering(compromising) the intervals that didn't match. For example, A = 440; B = 494; C# = 554; F# = 740; G# = 831; and so on--regardless of the key. This is the basis of today's equal temperament.


    Equal temperament requires a lot of compromise-- an equal-tempered G# at 831 is a long ways from either a G# at 835 (4 cents away) or a G# at 824 (7 cents away). A certain amount of dissonance had to be accepted by musicians and the public to allow the equal temperament approach to work.


    J.S. Bach composed The Well-Tempered Clavier with 12 parts, each in a different key, to help popularize the temperament movement.


    Equal temperament allowed composition in all twelve keys without the need for extra-long piano keyboards. Just intonation is an attempt to modify the dissonances created by the musical compromises required by equal temperament.


    Since the frets on fretted instruments such as guitars obviously are laid out according to equal temperament, the compromises are built into the fretboard-- but unfretted instruments such as violins can be played untempered, which is why string quartets sound so pleasing to the ear.


    ...And that, my friends, is why it so difficult to tune the B string on a standard guitar! "

  15. #14

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    To all interested,
    I used the Johnny Smith stringing recommendations last night on my '66 ES125TC using D'Addario Pure Nickel 12-51's. A few initial observations:
    1. using the method described, I initially had about 1/2 wrap on the tuning post on High E through G. On strings D through low E about 1/4 turn. Within a 3 hour period, I tweaked the tuning three times and it remained remarkably stable--about a 1/4 tone or less and loaded a bit more to the posts.
    2. This morning, I removed my guitar from its case and allowed it to sit in a temperature controlled room(75 degrees F) for 30 minutes to stabilize and then retuned twice in a half-hour period about a 1/4 tone. None of the tuning posts have an entire wrap although high E and B are very close. I had no intonation problems even beyond the 12th fret. I will report back after 5 hours of play time.

    Play live . . . Marinero

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    I've played with out-of-tune piano. We showed up once back in the late 60s to play a New Year's Eve dance at a country club in a small town up in the Texas Panhandle. The piano was so out of tune that the horn players had to play in a different key than the piano to be close. We tuned to the piano, but it was a train wreck. I've never heard a piano that much out of tune before or since. It was a grim night, but we got through it.
    The trouble with out-of-tune pianos is that they are usually out of tune with themselves so that tuning to any particular note on the piano is no help at all.

  17. #16

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    Here’s my usual process if I’m tuning for solo or small ensemble:

    1. Use a digital clamp-on tuner to get all strings fairly close.

    2. Go back to the A string and try to nail it. (If there’s a piano, I’ll tune the A string to that.) Once the A string is set I don’t touch it.

    3. Fine tune all the other strings to the A string, using harmonics and/or fretting and listening for beats, depending on which string I’m working on. (I realize harmonics don’t give you equal temperament tuning, but since I’m tuning strings to the A string, that error does not compound so is small.)

    4. Play some major triads or major 6/9s up and down the neck to listen for and correct any slight intonation issues. This often involves a compromise to split the difference between intonation errors up and down the neck. This also allows me to correct the slight errors from using harmonics in step 3.

    Martin Taylor has a nice tutorial on tuning where he considers the psychoacoustic effects of tuning for the high notes. I don’t exactly follow his method, but I think my Step 4 allows me to compensate for those effects.


    Tim Lerch has a little different approach, but that also finishes up by ear.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    The trouble with out-of-tune pianos is that they are usually out of tune with themselves so that tuning to any particular note on the piano is no help at all.
    exactly

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    The trouble with out-of-tune pianos is that they are usually out of tune with themselves so that tuning to any particular note on the piano is no help at all.
    Well, yeah, but you gotta start somewhere, and when there is only one piano available, and the piano player wants to play, you have to tune to something and live with what you get. The audience was too drunk to notice anyway, well before midnight. The start was painful, but it got better as time went on.

  20. #19

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    Update:
    I have 5 hours play time on the new string change using the JS method. Here are my observations on MY guitar.
    1. Unless I misread the instructions, I only have one wrap on the peg on high E-G and 3/4 wrap on low E through D. They used much higher numbers in the article for the wrap "without" allowing for extra string length. This could be unique to my tuners?
    2. I do not notice any greater string stability with more wraps, but I don't see any less. Apparently, the string bend is enough to secure the string.
    Perhaps its Black Magic, but I would like at least one wrap on the posts. Next time, I'll just allow a bit more play in the string before winding. I hope this helps.

    Play live . . . Marinero

  21. #20

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    An additional dimension to consider is the temperature of the strings - they expand, lengthen, and go flat when they warm up, and go sharp when they cool off.

    This means if you tune your guitar cold it will sound in tune for a minute or so as you begin to play it, but then it will go a little flat. If performing, your attempts at tuning corrections may be made hurriedly and imprecisely.

    The guitar must be tuned while the strings are warm because that is how they will be when you are playing. Likewise, after a break, the strings will have cooled and gone a little sharp; it is critical to not adjust their tuning. They will warm into tune from playing (so turn down your volume and play silently for a little to warm the strings before starting the next set).

    When practicing, try to get in the habit of tuning after each session and learn to trust that at the beginning of a session the sharp sounding cool strings will warm into tune.

  22. #21

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    johnny smith often used to tune his low E down to D

    he also used a flatwound for the low string..and rounds for the rest of the wound strings

    Johnny Smith: stringing and tuning-js-strings-jpg

    with a carved wood bridge saddle, js would have needed some tuning tricks to get the guitar intonated as precisely as he wanted!

    cheers

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    An additional dimension to consider is the temperature of the strings - they expand, lengthen, and go flat when they warm up, and go sharp when they cool off.

    This means if you tune your guitar cold it will sound in tune for a minute or so as you begin to play it, but then it will go a little flat. If performing, your attempts at tuning corrections may be made hurriedly and imprecisely.

    The guitar must be tuned while the strings are warm because that is how they will be when you are playing. Likewise, after a break, the strings will have cooled and gone a little sharp; it is critical to not adjust their tuning. They will warm into tune from playing (so turn down your volume and play silently for a little to warm the strings before starting the next set).

    When practicing, try to get in the habit of tuning after each session and learn to trust that at the beginning of a session the sharp sounding cool strings will warm into tune.
    Very important observation you've detailed, P,
    Before playing, I allow my guitar to rest for at least 15 minutes at 75 degrees to adjust to the room temperature although it always needs tweaking. On my guitar, it's usually the notorious b/g strings and the low e that need the greatest attention. However, I'm not discounting the wear factor on 56 y.o. tuners. For me, tuning has always been a bit of Science mixed with Black Magic although it's a delight to tune my EG so minimally in relation to my CG's which are forever morphing. Play live . . . Marinero

    P.S. Has anyone ever noticed during a gig that when you play in a small room you'll need to retune more frequently as the night moves on and the audience increases and the room temperature rises? M

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    ... The piano was so out of tune that the horn players had to play in a different key than the piano to be close.....
    That cracked me up! it's very funny now, but it must have been torture at the time!

    I have quite a few guitar students who want to learn 60s material and I am surprised by the number of recorded songs from that period that are tuned to the cracks in the keyboard.

  25. #24

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    My father used to tell my mother that she sang in the keyboard cracks. I love her dearly, but she cannot carry a tune in a bushel basket. We joke that when she sang us to sleep as babies, we slept as soon as we could so we didn't have to hear her any longer than absolutely necessary. I would love to be able to visit her in the nursing home and listen to her sing, but that's some time in the future. She went through Covid-19 with only a mild cough for a couple of days, but still no visitors allowed, and not likely to change. They have lost a number of residents, but thankfully my mother wasn't one.