The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Technique alone does not the musician make . . . Thus Spoke Zarathrustra . .

    "In all human work, the wise look for virtues and fools look for flaws".
    Jose Ramirez I

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    That’s a good quote. It certainly makes you happier.

    to be frank, it can be hard ATM. worth making the effort if you can though.

  4. #28

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    Which quote? There are four in the post above yours, Christian.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    Which quote? There are four in the post above yours, Christian.
    Gotta be this one, eh?

    "In all human work, the wise look for virtues and fools look for flaws".
    Jose Ramirez I

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Thank the heavens someone is working in this jumble! However, the point about Eleonora's playing is that there is a difference between technical mastery of an instrument/fluency and creative expression irrespective of playing style--Bop, Chord/Melody, Gypsy, etc.. As a generality, when players finally jump the hurdle of technique, many want to show what they can do with their instrument. It's a happy liberation since they are no longer struggling with mechanical expression. However, in many cases, their desire to parade their technique overrides taste and musicality. This is my perception of her playing. She plays a few bars and then unmusically jumps to blazing melodic/harmonic runs where, for me, they are not musical in the setting--just fast. Perhaps this will be her style but I doubt it since the "seasoning" of time always brings more thoughtfulness and concision to a performer--even hard-core Boppers. I hope this makes sense, however, at this stage of her playing, I doubt I could sit through her first set without becoming bored.
    As a contrast, there is a young player, Bulerias, who has been providing videos in THE SHOWCASE of our Forum who has phenomenal technique yet, has the taste, nuance, and musical composure of a seasoned artist. His playing is emotive and shows the self confidence and maturity of a much older musician/artist. Check him out for comparison. I hope this makes sense, H.

    Play live? . . . not where I live . . . Marinero
    How many songs have you heard Strino play? Have you seen her live?

  7. #31

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    Yea I love the Ramirez quote, it kept my sanity more than once when working for a total moron.
    Listening to Ms. Strino made me happy. I liked hearing a fresh approach, not another regurgitation of a copied solo against a backing track. Watching her left hand gave me some ideas to fool with.
    I can’t sing though. Nor am I pretty.
    What did not make me happy was people beating her up. Darn, open your ears and learn something new instead of closing them and critiquing.

  8. #32

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    [QUOTE=BickertRules;1083763]I feel my conversation with Holger may have sidetracked the thread so here’s some more Eleonora Strino - lovely playing. I have a real admiration for young people who are keeping straight-ahead jazz and instrumental guitar music alive.


    The comments on her playing are telling in a way...if this was an older male playing I think the comments would have a very different flavor.

    I like what she does ..she takes some chances with "rainbow" using some nice (to me) "crunchy" chords...

    the use of extended harmony in chord structures and voicing is telling of some intense study and using scale fragments and extended runs to connect harmonic movement
    again shows knowledge of harmonic/melodic relations

    some of the fingering of chords takes quite a while to be played with "ease" ..a student of the (Smith..Van Epps..Greene and others school perhaps)

    and to project into the future is silly..she may take up piano or start a "king crimson" flavored band for all we know

    the term "jazz guitar" is not a accurate description of what that means today..of course there is a tradition coming from a period of time when the "standard" was the main
    form of material "jazz" musicians used..and then many musicians wrote their own compositions and the music changed alot..Monk..Coltrane..Davis and many others..took it to another level and todays "jazz" would not be recognized by many as the music they were used to hearing.

    I began my "jazz" playing with standards..and that is a bedrock of harmonic movement and melodic exploration for any jazz musician -my take-

    today the use of computers/syths/and synthetic sounds/recording and engineering advances are taking "music" to places not even dreamed of years ago

    people grow and their talents grow with them..and Strino will also

  9. #33

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    "Anyways that is the second time you've ignored me asking when we are going to see you play, so we can be inspired by someone with a deep understanding of jazz." Lobomov

    O.K., Lobo,
    Although I've answered this question in another post and your posit is a classic red herring in regards to this discussion, I'll explain it once again. I didn't join JGF to have my music critiqued or to promote a prospective music career although I do enjoy some of the fine musicians who have posted their work here. I did join, however, to have conversations about music with musicians that would not be possible where I live today. In the last 55 years, I have had untold feedback to my professional performances and, fortunately, when full-time gigs disappeared for working musicians in the late 70's, I switched gears from music into a very successful career in business until I ,recently, retired. Today, I am looking forward to performing solo , pre-Covid, as soon as this this madness is over. So, Lobo, to relieve your obvious and persistent angst, perhaps you should start a new internet site for musicians where only those who perform online can comment about music with the predictable result being that only you and your ilk could could deem which comments are valid/invalid based on your musical sensibilities/prejudices. I will, hopefully soon, be content to play 1-2 gigs a week once Covid is over and continue to post my thoughts/ideas on Jazz Guitar Forum for discussion. And, perhaps one day I'll be fortunate to have you in my audience . . . sipping a Stolichnaya Elite Vodka Martini or, perhaps, a glass of Chateau La Lagune Haut Medoc but, on second thought, I don't think that's your style. I hope this answers your question.
    Play live . . . not in your bedroom . . . Marinero

    P.S. In all sincerity, I wish you all the best in your professional, paid live performances.



  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    I didn't join JGF to have my music critiqued
    I dig .. You joined to critique the music of every body else from upcoming musicians like Elonora Strino to long time established well respected artists like Pat Metheny and John Scofield

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    she deserves her own thread. very enjoyable player (and singer). i hear influences from pete bernstein, the dutch guitar school, some barney kessel chord movements, lots of BH. pretty pianistic but with fire. i'm in love. unfortunately she is pop star material.
    Couple of months ago I posted one clip of her's int What Are You Listening ... there was no reaction, as far as I can remember.

    All those influences you mention, IMO, are more less irrelevant. Maybe it makes for some credibility in some obscure niche, like this forum, mentioning all those names, but otherwise it can only take from her tallent.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Thank the heavens someone is working in this jumble! However, the point about Eleonora's playing is that there is a difference between technical mastery of an instrument/fluency and creative expression irrespective of playing style--Bop, Chord/Melody, Gypsy, etc.. As a generality, when players finally jump the hurdle of technique, many want to show what they can do with their instrument. It's a happy liberation since they are no longer struggling with mechanical expression. However, in many cases, their desire to parade their technique overrides taste and musicality. This is my perception of her playing. She plays a few bars and then unmusically jumps to blazing melodic/harmonic runs where, for me, they are not musical in the setting--just fast. Perhaps this will be her style but I doubt it since the "seasoning" of time always brings more thoughtfulness and concision to a performer--even hard-core Boppers. I hope this makes sense, however, at this stage of her playing, I doubt I could sit through her first set without becoming bored.
    As a contrast, there is a young player, Bulerias, who has been providing videos in THE SHOWCASE of our Forum who has phenomenal technique yet, has the taste, nuance, and musical composure of a seasoned artist. His playing is emotive and shows the self confidence and maturity of a much older musician/artist. Check him out for comparison. I hope this makes sense, H.

    Play live? . . . not where I live . . . Marinero
    That comparison makes no sense. Bulerias is a fantastic CLASSICAL guitarist, playing his written arrangements of composers' film music superlatively, but he's not improvising at all. He's rehearsed these pieces for years probably, and plays them as written.

    Eleanora is a JAZZ musician. She is not playing written out arrangements, and is improvising almost constantly. She is creating music spontaneously, so it's obviously not been rehearsed for years like Bulerias' arrangements have been.

    It's like comparing John Williams playing Walton's Bagatelles, and Barney Kessel playing Satin Doll.
    Williams has been playing the Walton piece the same way, note for note for years in his own special interpretation of the piece.
    Barney Kessel plays Satin Doll differently every time, and most of it is improvised.
    Is it as technically as polished and worked out as William's playing of the Walton? No, for obvious reasons.
    They're two different styles with two different performance aesthetics.

  13. #37

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    I just don't see what's to be gained by criticizing this young lady.
    Is she any busier than Barney or Tal when she plays chord passages in her solos, and if so, so what?
    Expecting her to be a fully formed mature musician at that age is ludicrous. I'll say this, I like her more than a lot of the young folks on the scene. Very unpretentious playing imo. She can only get better and better. We should all have been that good at that age let alone now and I'm guessing some of the critics here (well, at least one) couldn't carry her guitar case.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    And, perhaps one day I'll be fortunate to have you in my audience . . .


    I dont think so.

  15. #39

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    She's very good.

  16. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    She sounds more comfortable with that thinner bodied axe. The fat body sounds better for acc. her singing
    I think she Sounds Great! and is very talented! It does not cost a Nickle To Be Nice!!!

  17. #41

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    I can only hope that our talented and lovely guitar playing and singing Napoletana never sees this thread about her and discovers how petty and back-biting some of her “fellow” jazz guitarists can be.
    Last edited by BickertRules; 12-21-2020 at 07:25 AM.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by BickertRules
    I can only hope that our talented and lovely guitar playing and singing Napoletana never sees this thread about her and discovers how petty and back-biting her “fellow” jazz guitarists can be.
    Well tbh I see overwhelmingly positive responses, except one, so let's not make it too dramatic lol. But I'd love to see her here, that would be dope.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    hahaha, too busy? Yea, sure too busy playing gigs, working.
    Yep. Too busy playing American music. We're not doing shit in America these days.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, H,
    Thank the heavens someone is working in this jumble! However, the point about Eleonora's playing is that there is a difference between technical mastery of an instrument/fluency and creative expression irrespective of playing style--Bop, Chord/Melody, Gypsy, etc.. As a generality, when players finally jump the hurdle of technique, many want to show what they can do with their instrument. It's a happy liberation since they are no longer struggling with mechanical expression. However, in many cases, their desire to parade their technique overrides taste and musicality. This is my perception of her playing. She plays a few bars and then unmusically jumps to blazing melodic/harmonic runs where, for me, they are not musical in the setting--just fast. Perhaps this will be her style but I doubt it since the "seasoning" of time always brings more thoughtfulness and concision to a performer--even hard-core Boppers. I hope this makes sense, however, at this stage of her playing, I doubt I could sit through her first set without becoming bored.
    As a contrast, there is a young player, Bulerias, who has been providing videos in THE SHOWCASE of our Forum who has phenomenal technique yet, has the taste, nuance, and musical composure of a seasoned artist. His playing is emotive and shows the self confidence and maturity of a much older musician/artist. Check him out for comparison. I hope this makes sense, H.

    Play live? . . . not where I live . . . Marinero
    Are you always like this or is it just during viral pandemics?
    She has a sound and other things going for her. Why be a hater?

  21. #45

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    Pretend Elenora is a forum member and say something nice. I doubt she needs our approval but I like her sound.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Pretend Elenora is a forum member and say something nice. I doubt she needs our approval but I like her sound.
    She's so good I'm amazed. She should be famous.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    She's so good I'm amazed. She should be famous.
    She reminds me a bit of Barney Kessel. She may not want to be a clone. He has a very refined sense of rubato, like a good classical musician. I thought she was really heating it up in the 2nd video.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 12-21-2020 at 03:59 PM.

  24. #48

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    "She has a sound and other things going for her. Why be a hater?" Stevebol



    Hi, S,
    I don't hate her at all. She is a very accomplished technician(see post #6) but I don't like her musical personality/style(see post #18). Simple. So, why is it when someone disagrees with "The Herd" they are castigated? Should we not be free on an open forum to comment on the topic at hand? Or, should we all buy into the "Group Think" for guaranteed safety and protection of the Herd?
    There have been few musical phenoms/savants in the history of Music: Mozart, Giuliani, Chopin, Paganini . . . or in Jazz: Joey Alexander, Chet Baker, Miles Davis, Birelli LaGrene, Wynton Marsalis, etc. but she's not in that class of musicians. Musical greatness is not just about technique . . . far from it and that is why this black magic we call music is such an illusive mistress. So, no animus intended for her . . . just a personal reply about my musical tastes. Isn't that why the OP posted her playing for open discussion? Perhaps, I'm wrong.

    Play live . . . Marinero



    Last edited by Marinero; 12-21-2020 at 04:34 PM. Reason: addition

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "She has a sound and other things going for her. Why be a hater?" Stevebol



    Hi, S,
    I don't hate her at all. She is a very accomplished technician(see post #6) but I don't like her musical personality/style(see post #18). Simple. So, why is it when someone disagrees with "The Herd" they are castigated? Should we not be free on an open forum to comment on the topic at hand? Or, should we all buy into the "Group Think" for guaranteed safety and protection of the Herd?
    There have been few musical phenoms/savants in the history of Music: Mozart, Giuliani, Chopin, Paganini . . . or in Jazz: Joey Alexander, Chet Baker, Miles Davis, Birelli LaGrene, Wynton Marsalis, etc. but she's not in that class of musicians. Musical greatness is not just about technique . . . far from it and that is why this black magic we call music is such an illusive mistress. So, no animus intended for her . . . just a personal reply about my musical tastes. Isn't that why the OP posted her playing for open discussion? Perhaps, I'm wrong.

    Play live . . . Marinero



    M, do you only enjoy people in what you consider 'that' class? does someone have to be a phenom/savant for you to enjoy listening to them?
    if so I'm guessing your music library is quite small and your taste very limited. you don't have to like her, but give her some time to mature and come back later w/your opinions.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    "She has a sound and other things going for her. Why be a hater?" Stevebol



    Hi, S,
    I don't hate her at all. She is a very accomplished technician(see post #6) but I don't like her musical personality/style(see post #18). Simple. So, why is it when someone disagrees with "The Herd" they are castigated? Should we not be free on an open forum to comment on the topic at hand? Or, should we all buy into the "Group Think" for guaranteed safety and protection of the Herd?
    There have been few musical phenoms/savants in the history of Music: Mozart, Giuliani, Chopin, Paganini . . . or in Jazz: Joey Alexander, Chet Baker, Miles Davis, Birelli LaGrene, Wynton Marsalis, etc. but she's not in that class of musicians. Musical greatness is not just about technique . . . far from it and that is why this black magic we call music is such an illusive mistress. So, no animus intended for her . . . just a personal reply about my musical tastes. Isn't that why the OP posted her playing for open discussion? Perhaps, I'm wrong.

    Play live . . . Marinero





    Young musicians forget to breath but she'll work it out. I'd like to hear her just sing. Perform like Benson or BB King.
    If I saw her in a club I'd definitely stick around for at least a couple sets. She's got 'it' whatever it is. I'd be more interested in her vocals than guitar playing but she's a very good guitar player too.

    That's my 2 cents from the bleachers in the twilight zone..