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  1. #1

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    Just when I thought I was across most harmonic concepts relating to Functional Harmony I came across this quote on a recent thread posted by mikostep :

    ....

    " For example: on Dm7 dorian (So what) soloist have following choices (I'll explain it in steps):
    Step 1 - relatives
    1. Fmaj and Dm
    2. Cmaj (actuall key) and Am.

    Step 2 - dominants
    1. Cmaj-G7 and Am-E7
    2. Fmaj-C7 and Dm-A7

    Step 3 - further development of dominants
    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    Step 3 can be developed in other ways too.
    Now, try to play "So what" with all these choices and remember that all of this can be used harmonically and melodically.
    And this is just the beginning of harmonic possibilities. Another interesting harmonic concept Peter gave us is in the lesson about Harmonic regions. Many classically trained musicians are familiar with Schoenberg harmonic regions. It's similar concept, but with chords that works in jazz. Totally mind blowing lesson. In that lesson he played Blue moon in like 50 different ways. Again, it is possible to use it harmonically and melodically. "

    .....

    So, this, especially after seeing the corresponding Peter Farrell video touching on some of these concepts, has been blowing my mind. Farrell, for all his quirks, has somehow managed the impossible - he has somewhat decoded GB's methodology. He has probably come closest of all who have ever tried to actually describe the thinking behind Benson's line construction, along with many other facets as well.

    Why am I mentioning it here where you can go to the other threads started about Farrell's Benson Method? Because it's frickin' astonishing, that's why! ... And it's not getting the discussion it deserves! OK, I know some peeps consider GB to be just a super charged R&B chops machine, but this sells him criminally short! There is a sophistication and complexity going on under the hood that has baffled most since the 60's. I can remember transcribing some GB solos and just giving up trying to make sense of any analysis. I kinda walked away thinking "This dude gets away with playing anything over anything!".

    Yeah their have been attempts in books to transcribe and decode the GB style, but nothing convincing or groundbreaking. This Farrell fellow has been a private student of George's for years and has been officially sanctioned by George to create a series of books and videos which showcases the GB method. I'm no shill for these products as they are too expensive for me to consider purchasing, but how many of you have watched the free videos? It's akin to someone being shown Charlie Parker's thinking as told directly by Bird himself to the chosen messenger. GB's harmonic thinking is up there with (or in some respects perhaps even beyond) that of Bird, Trane, Wes, Cannonball, Herbie, Hubbard etc and as far as I know there has not been a method of either of these greats created under the auspices of the greats themselves.

    I know that some will pass on the whole deal because it seems like a 5 year course (or more!) on how to be a GB clone, or how to learn a ton of flashy lines with which to fake improv with.... but I'm not interested in that. I wanna know more about the origins of GB's peculiar harmonic insights. Where did he get them from? How much of this thinking was original? For example, does anyone here pull from the following matrix? :

    Over D Dorian:

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    I gotta say, after listening to Farrell (despite his strangely unorthodox presentations!) share some insights into George's thinking, I'm realising GB is probably even more of a freak/genius than I thought he was. Kinda makes much of my previous harmonic "knowledge" redundant.... What do you guys make of it all?



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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    George Benson is a monster musician any insight you can get is going to be open up ideas for anyone on any instrument.

  4. #3

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    This is more or less how most classic bebop players approached changes and improvisation, starting with Charlie Parker. It's not something developed by Benson, although he truly excels at implementing and exploring it on the guitar.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    This is more or less how most classic bebop players approached changes and improvisation, starting with Charlie Parker. It's not something developed by Benson, although he truly excels at implementing and exploring it on the guitar.
    Really? How come I've never come across this kind of thing in any "How to play Bebop" books? Can you show examples of where Parker was using some of the more unusual harmonic choices outlined above?

  6. #5

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    It's the whole concept of the era, playing chords over chords, or "chains" of chord movements over a single chord, or over a single Ii-V-I. This, along with the increased rhythmic complexity, was one of the major criticisms of Bebop from older, swing era musicians at the time. A lot of substitutions, extended dominants, alternate II-Vs chords, sometimes derived from non-standard chord scales, later all the things Coltrane did, and the generation after him. The end result being, taking a simple tune and essentially playing different changes every chorus or section. For example, Miles Davis band with Tony Williams is a band that comes to mind in really pushing the bar at the time. Benson is great at this, and talks a lot about it on his DVDs. But I think it was pretty common for Bebop players to think chords, not scales. And it is very interesting to see how this translates differently in every instrument.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    It's the whole concept of the era, playing chords over chords, or "chains" of chord movements over a single chord, or over a single Ii-V-I. This, along with the increased rhythmic complexity, was one of the major criticisms of Bebop from older, swing era musicians at the time. A lot of substitutions, extended dominants, alternate II-Vs chords, sometimes derived from non-standard chord scales, later all the things Coltrane did, and the generation after him. The end result being, taking a simple tune and essentially playing different changes every chorus or section. For example, Miles Davis band with Tony Williams is a band that comes to mind in really pushing the bar at the time. Benson is great at this, and talks a lot about it on his DVDs. But I think it was pretty common for Bebop players to think chords, not scales. And it is very interesting to see how this translates differently in every instrument.
    Once you see Bensons system somewhat broke down it's very chord based. Cascading raking arpeggios, and 'scales' and positions that are chord based in themselves(like 'boxes' but different).

  8. #7

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    Thanx for the quote. Appreciated.
    The Secret of two chords matrix is just one of the possibilities that Peter showed us. Melodic minor opens a ton of possibilities (remember that all chords in MM are interchangeable). Harmonic minor, as Peter says "invite all your friends" to the party so you can use myriad of subs based on HM. But, what blows mind are Harmonic regions. Concept is similary presented in Schoenberg's book about harmony, try to find it, but the chords are different. I've been studying it for two years now and its just mind blowing. I keep on writing chord subs and possibilities I like every day. Yes, bebop era players used many of these concepts and almost every player had its own concept. George have incredibly fast mind and thousands of concepts to combine.
    But, I would like to add here that those concepts, although they are incredibly important, are just one side of the coin. There is so deep concept behind his rhythmic approach which gives the REAL sense to all of this (but which is absolutely neglected by many players). Peter glimpsed into that in one of his free videos and some explanations are in thread I started. I'm 100% sure that this is more important and if players would practice these rhythmic concepts, harmonic concepts would open by them self. When you start to feel the rhythm deeply than average its a simple matter of filling gaps, well not that simple maybe.
    Other thing is incredible technique that opens up possibilities. There was a lot of talking about George's left/right hand connection here on this forum. One important byproduct of correct connection of left/right hand is that player can understand and true meaning of playing lines and implement them appropriately. Lines are like phrases with meaning in language. You can't speak english in proficient level if you only know alphabet and just a few words. Scales are like alphabet, there are all the possibilities in them. But, for meaningfull talking, sentences should be made by words that are connected with ideas as connective tissue. So, scales are like alphabet, lines are like words or little phrases and giant lines are are like sentences with sense. After that comes storytelling [I'll write about that in thread I started) and after storytelling only George knows what, but there is something.

  9. #8
    I think Farrell himself observes that much of Benson's Harmonic thinking is very different to what's out there. Take a good look at that matrix above. There are a lot of #7 against a dom 7 chord, not as a chromatic passing note, but as part of a chord or arp sub. You don't see this in Aebersold, Baker, Coker, Bergonzi, Ligon etc. Can someone explain the origins of this matrix?

  10. #9

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    Looking at the material in the OP, when I saw one option for G7 being Abm7, I recalled Carol Kaye saying on one of her instruction tapes (CD now), "Abm9 IS G7." (So for her, it's not playing Abm9 over G7, it's understanding that Abm9 is part of G7.)

    She is very big on chords, not scales, and used the phrase "Chordal Pattern System" a long time ago. Not as something she invented but what, to her mind, all the pros she knew in California had learned or picked up by ear (and what she assumed pros elsewhere had also learned or picked up by ear.)

    I think Alter (above) is right about this approach being fairly common in the Bebop era. (Though how it was described by the players doing it could vary.)

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Looking at the material in the OP, when I saw one option for G7 being Abm7, I recalled Carol Kaye saying on one of her instruction tapes (CD now), "Abm9 IS G7." (So for her, it's not playing Abm9 over G7, it's understanding that Abm9 is part of G7.)

    She is very big on chords, not scales, and used the phrase "Chordal Pattern System" a long time ago. Not as something she invented but what, to her mind, all the pros she knew in California had learned or picked up by ear (and what she assumed pros elsewhere had also learned or picked up by ear.)

    I think Alter (above) is right about this approach being fairly common in the Bebop era. (Though how it was described by the players doing it could vary.)

    Interesting, and I agree with the the conclusion

    I would add, if we examine the only questionable note in Abm9 which clashes with G7 (I mean Gb (or F#)) and make it fit into G7 by sharping to G we got the AbmMaj79 which is the very first arpeggio in Ab melodic minor, which is G altered scale. (yes I know, modes but would skip it for now)

    Playing G altered over G7 is a usual idea, including the strong arpeggios within that scale (if we are not into the scales)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Looking at the material in the OP, when I saw one option for G7 being Abm7, I recalled Carol Kaye saying on one of her instruction tapes (CD now), "Abm9 IS G7." (So for her, it's not playing Abm9 over G7, it's understanding that Abm9 is part of G7.)

    She is very big on chords, not scales, and used the phrase "Chordal Pattern System" a long time ago. Not as something she invented but what, to her mind, all the pros she knew in California had learned or picked up by ear (and what she assumed pros elsewhere had also learned or picked up by ear.)

    I think Alter (above) is right about this approach being fairly common in the Bebop era. (Though how it was described by the players doing it could vary.)
    George says there are only two chords - major and minor. Sounds familiar? But its deeper than presented by that other great guitarist.

  13. #12

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    There are a lot of #7 against a dom 7 chord, not as a chromatic passing note, but as part of a chord or arp sub. You don't see this in Aebersold, Baker, Coker, Bergonzi, Ligon etc. Can someone explain the origins of this matrix?
    The whole point of it is chord driven. You might end up with notes or chords that clash with the original chord, but still work because they form another chord, so it makes sense musically. It is a concept based on consonance and dissonance. Some movement creates tension, some resolves it. It is essentially out playing sometimes, but very bebop period correct. (As opposed to other types of out playing, chromatic or intervallic that are usually more modern).

    A start with alternate II-Vs is to think of playing a dominant G7 chord over say a Cmaj7 as Tension -> Release. The same thing can be accomplished by playing Dominant area -> Tonic area but over another tonic chord of the key, say E-7. So you end up playing an alternate V or II-V, F#-7b5 B7 resolving to E-7, and all this over the original D-7 G7 Cmaj7, or even as more out playing over just a Cmaj7 chord.

    Another approach is to take the G7 chord as tension and work with chords from different G7 chord scales. Say G7 altered, will give you two other dominant chords, Eb7 and Db7 to play over and resolve to the original Cmaj7. These dominants can have their relative IIs with them. Choose G7 half whole diminished and you have other chords. Or see Ab-maj7 as a chord sub for G7alt, then change the Ab-maj7 chord into say A-7 dorian, different chords and scales again.

    The easy part about it is that you are playing things and shapes you already know, simple lines and arpeggios over basic chords (Instead of having to learn a arpeggio of the type 9 11 13 or something even weirder). The difficult part is to actually hear and resolve the new harmony and role they play. Pat Martino does that a lot, Wes also.

    Here's an old video of mine done for students on a conservatory, where i practice some of these ideas. And here's the chord substitution chard i was looking at (sorry couldn't find the printed version ). Its fascinating stuff to practice, and it never ends, i 'm filling a second page


    George Benson secrets?-chord-substitutions-jpg
    Last edited by Alter; 01-25-2020 at 09:39 AM.

  14. #13
    MINOR 3RD SUB MATRIX: ii - V


    Dm7.............G7
    Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
    Fm7.............Bb7
    Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
    Abm7...........Db7
    Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
    Bm7.............E7
    Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)

    *any chord from 1st column can go to any chord in 2nd column............................................ ....................



    Dm7 - G7

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj



    OK, so the top matrix is the one I know and use. Any chord in column 1 can progress to any chord in column 2. It's basically ii - V's at min 3rds apart.

    Now look again at the 2nd matrix and notice the chords that are not in the top matrix. Are you saying these chords are common bebop subs? Are you using them? Do you see them
    when analysing Pat Martino? I'd love to see some examples.

  15. #14

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    Look at my last post in the thread I started. You'll find your answers there.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Look at my last post in the thread I started. You'll find your answers there.
    The "story telling post"? I didn't see the answer there...

  17. #16

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    The extra chords are the maj7 ones that are introduced. The easiest way to picture them is through their min7 relatives. So Gbmaj7 = Eb-7, Bmaj7 = Ab-7, Ebmaj7 = C-7 etc.. And the minor chords are chords you are using already.

    Another way is to look at them as chromatic approaches, aka side slipping. Bmaj7 or Dbmaj7 for tension, resolving to Cmaj7 for tonic.

    Yet another way is the multitonic approach. Instead of a min7 dom7 maj7 chords for the II-V-I, use the same chord quality, and do it with min7 only, dom7 only, or maj7 only chords. So D-7 F-7 A-7 or Fmaj7 Abmaj7 Bmaj7 to Cmaj7 etc..

  18. #17

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    Yes. There you got a part about home an away at the same time. That is how George sees the chords.

  19. #18

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    Also, try to find transcription "I'll drink to that" solo here on forum for examples

  20. #19
    I'm just trying to see the symmetry and methodology behind this matrix:

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    G to E (maj 6th) E to C (min 6th) C to A (maj 6th) - no symmetry, nor any reason for it?...

    Is it just about how G7 and E7 relate to the "2 chords" idea (C maj and Am) and C7 and A7 relate to Dm and F maj?

    I obviously get how, say, Abm7 - Db7 is just ii - V of the TT, and that Fm7 to Bb7 is just the Back Door cadence. But the others elude me.

    The other chords are the #IV maj and the III maj. The #IV chord is just slide slipping to the V7, right? And the III maj is like V13b9, yeah?

    I get how all the examples you guys are offering can be used, but I'm trying to understand how the matrix above came about, and if it's a known thing?

    Further, Is the matrix offering subs that are meant to resolve to C (or it's own subs)?

    Or is it more about options for D Dorian? Did Cannonball and Trane use all of these in "So What" ? (I somehow doubt it). Or is GB the first guy to use all of these subs over a Dorian vamp?










    Last edited by princeplanet; 01-25-2020 at 12:20 PM.

  21. #20

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    Look for the steps 1 and 2 in your first post and remember its on Dm Dorian.
    Step 1 explains relatives Dm-Fmaj7 and Cmaj7-Am.
    Step 2 inserts Dominants for all chords above.
    Step 3 is further development of the above Dominants by inserting commonly used subs, but this time you have 4 unusual cycles that seems unrelated to Dm dorian but are actually part of its harmony.
    But remember playing in front/on/behind of the chord and home and away (flux and reflux) which brings duality to chords.

  22. #21

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    I hope I don't sound arrogant.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Look for the steps 1 and 2 in your first post and remember its on Dm Dorian.
    Step 1 explains relatives Dm-Fmaj7 and Cmaj7-Am.
    Step 2 inserts Dominants for all chords above.
    Step 3 is further development of the above Dominants by inserting commonly used subs, but this time you have 4 unusual cycles that seems unrelated to Dm dorian but are actually part of its harmony.
    But remember playing in front/on/behind of the chord and home and away (flux and reflux) which brings duality to chords.
    Just saw this after I edited my post above it, and it seems to concur. Cheers.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Also, try to find transcription "I'll drink to that" solo here on forum for examples
    Hey, I did a search, nothing comes up. What thread was that on?

  25. #24

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  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    George says there are only two chords - major and minor. Sounds familiar? But its deeper than presented by that other great guitarist.
    Joe Pass said three, major, minor, and dominant. Though to be fair, he said--IIRC--SOUNDS, not chords. And augmented and diminished chords function as dominant sounds--most of the time time--in context.

    You are right. This is a deep well. I think it helps to learn some great lines and gradually---at one's own pace---realize how they work. (I suspect that's what George did.) Pat Martino learned that way too. (Obviously, if your ear isn't that good, that option is not readily available.)

    Have you seen the NAMM video of George Benson and Carol Kaye jamming? Not the highest quality video but you can tell those two greats were at home playing together.

  27. #26

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    Get's pretty far to what one would think as outside. So, if I'm getting this right...

    For Dm7 you can think of the relative minor Am7. Now play the dominant to Am7 and you're playing an E7. How about a ii V for Am7 and you have Bm7 to E7, and maybe add the Fm7 for the E7

    So for Dm7, one is playing Bm7 to E7 to Fm7 resolving to Am7

    And listening/watching to the ease with which Benson does all this, it seems he does it without "thinking" about it... and he can sing it!!!!

    What is amazing to me is somehow Benson always seems so "in" and accessible to even nonmusicians when taking it to several levels of "outside". Maybe that speaks to his feel/groove/speed/conviction. What he does always seems so right to me.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Joe Pass said three, major, minor, and dominant. Though to be fair, he said--IIRC--SOUNDS, not chords. And augmented and diminished chords function as dominant sounds--most of the time time--in context.

    You are right. This is a deep well. I think it helps to learn some great lines and gradually---at one's own pace---realize how they work. (I suspect that's what George did.) Pat Martino learned that way too. (Obviously, if your ear isn't that good, that option is not readily available.)

    George and Pat were friends.

    Have you seen the NAMM video of George Benson and Carol Kaye jamming? Not the highest quality video but you can tell those two greats were at home playing together.
    Could you post a link to this, please?

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    ...So for Dm7, one is playing Bm7 to E7 to Fm7 resolving to Am7

    ...
    I'm not certain, but perhaps the way you might use Fm7 is as the ii of V being the TT (Bb7) of E7 which is the V7 of the relative minor of C.... ?

    Or just see it as the "back door' 2 - 5 ...... ?

    And yeah, it must be all about how GB lands his lines. ...

  30. #29

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    - Dm-Fmaj7 and Am-Cmaj7 are home (flux)
    - Dominants and their subs are away (reflux)

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Thanks, will check it out.

  32. #31

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    George Benson read the Jazz Guitar Forum and he became a genius

  33. #32

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    My brain just exploded

    you guys go on ahead ... I'll be OK
    Last edited by pingu; 01-25-2020 at 10:02 PM.

  34. #33

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    This thread is a mix of over complication and over simplification.

    D Dorian
    ||: D-7 | G7 :||

    Tweak the D-7:
    D-maj7, 4ths, etc

    All the other chordal overlays are ways of "going outside". Not a lot of deep analysis really needed there, simply go out and come back in. Be tasteful and don't stay out for too long.

  35. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    George Benson read the Jazz Guitar Forum and he became a genius
    Yeah, nice one....

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikostep
    Could you post a link to this, please?
    The video comes and goes. Someone posts it, someone else takes it down. Someone posts it... I think it was from 2006.

  37. #36

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    Okay, the Benson / Carol Kaye video can be found here:

    Her Name is Carol Kaye by Nelson Torres — Kickstarter

    The page at the link is about "Her Name Is Carol." If you scroll down, you will find a link to the Benson / Kaye jam at Namm in 2006. You can download it. (I did.)

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Okay, the Benson / Carol Kaye video can be found here:

    Her Name is Carol Kaye by Nelson Torres — Kickstarter

    The page at the link is about "Her Name Is Carol." If you scroll down, you will find a link to the Benson / Kaye jam at Namm in 2006. You can download it. (I did.)
    Thanx.

  39. #38

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    This goes even deeper, and helps to organize the concept:
    Dodecaphonics

  40. #39

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    Yea.. cool. Just using one chord, or a simple Chord pattern, II- V7. And expanding with different Functional relationships or subs. Anyway, each layer has more options through expanding.

    And then you can expand the Chord Pattern, add some different Functional guidelines, modal concepts.

    The only thing I noticed is without the use of Blue Notes... which also create a source for Subs and Function... sounds pretty vanilla. Seems like when you just get technical and plug and play, which I guess needs to be 1st steps to developing approach... the results, are cool. But only guitar Geeks may stay interested.

    I'm not trying to downplay... it's just these magic chord relationships and subs are not new. I'm old but still around and remember at least back to the late 60's being introduced to these harmonic licks. (Subs and Functional relationships )

    The more you add to your plate... the better you need to become to actually use in contexts... live. Anyway... this approach is how I look and hear music. It's not complicated, if you just go through the process on paper...

  41. #40

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    Hey Sam... very nice. Love the Amps... guitar not bad either.

    So A few things, Your use of the application or device sounds and looks like typical embellishments and ornaments.
    Not a bad thing... but to actually use the technique being called GB secrets, you need to have targets, tonal targets.

    The secrets are just using Subs, there are Diatonic Functional subs... which are just the Functional labels of chords constructed from notes of any scale.

    Ex.Diatonic chords from Maj scale and labels
    Cmaj7...D-7...E-7...Fmaj7...G7...A-7...B-7b5
    Ima7....II-7...III-7..IVma7...V7..VI-7..VII-7b5

    Tonic........ Ima, III-, and VI-
    Sub Dom...II-7, IVma
    Dominant... V7, VII-7b5

    When you think and hear harmonically with Function as the organizational control of movement... any chord with same function becomes a Functional Sub. The example above is just the basic start....

    Then there are Tri Tone subs... invert the tritone and create a different V7 choprd....... Sub V G7 becomes Db7 or C#7.

    You can then expand these standard harmonic organizational devices with the application of Borrowing, beginning with Relative then Parrallel.

    (I'm skipping Modal Interchange for now... but obviously creates many options.)

    The next step is to apply same harmonic devices above to Chord Patterns. This thread used The Relative II-7 of any V7 chord which is very standard Jazz Chord Pattern. The Cool thing with Chord Patterns is that all the chords within the Chord Pattern... Become and Function as ONE CHORD. And you can use any chord within the Chord Pattern to apply the Diatonic sub Device and even the Tritone device with some avoid contexts. (and even better any chord within the Chord Pattern can becom the Tonal Target.... even if the Chord Pattern implies a chord that isn't there.)
    D-7 G7 can imply Cmaj7 so even if the Cmaj is not there... you can use the implied Target Target to create Subs From. But Wait there's More....

    Expand the Chord Pattern to three chords by calling any Chord a Tonal Target and then expand that chord by approaching with any Tonal implying Chord Pattern...

    Ex. In Blue Bossa above.... 1st 4 bars... I'll II V's on 1st 2 bars then V7 and SubV on next 2 bars
    C-7 ................/ C-7.................../ F-7........./Bb7......../ Now make each chord a Tonal Target...

    C-7.. D-7 G7#9/ C-6..Gb13 C7alt /F-7 etc...there many options, but when you use typical Functional sub devices the pitch organization naturally work better.

    So then bigger chord patterns as subs or what ever you choose.

    Anyway... you then need to expand and bring in Blue Notes with the new chord patterns and use rhythmical organization... create and work with Harmonic Rhythm.... not just the basic chords... the actually style and feel created from rhythmic attacks...how the chords are placed within phrases... which create the real Harmonic Rhythm.

    Long story short... don't just embellish randomly.... use harmony to organize those embellishments and ornament to become Chord Tones. (And if your going to call the device GB secrets... use some Blue Notes Functionally. (which brings in Melodic minor naturally)

  42. #41

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    1. G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    The way I understand these is as an extension (using a portion of the cycle) of the tritone dominant substitution. So for G7, you have the II V I IV of the Db7 tritone substitution of G7. Using the II of the tritone sub is pretty common. I know Wes, Joe Pass and many others have done so. I don't know that I've come across also using the I and IV before. That would be a lot to fit in, in a bebop context where the chords are moving so fast. Maybe, it would be easier in a modal context. I do think the ear just hears it as "playing out". It makes it easier to play a lot of chord extensions (9, 11, 13) using the familiar building blocks of triads and seventh chords.

    The amazing thing is the way Benson makes it sound so effortless, musical and accessible. Does anybody have an example recording and/or transcription where he's using these techniques? It would be nice to know of a specific chorus or two from one of his solos where it's particularly in use and easy to follow and identify. I've been listening to Benson since the early 70s and have a lot of his recordings, so there's a good chance I'd have a recording of it and be able to learn something. A transcription would be even better.
    Last edited by RobbieAG; 02-03-2020 at 05:43 PM.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieAG
    1. G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    The way I understand these is as an extension (using a portion of the cycle) of the tritone dominant substitution. So for G7, you have the II V I IV of the Db7 tritone substitution of G7. Using the II of the tritone sub is pretty common. I know Wes, Joe Pass and many others have done so. I don't know that I've come across also using the I and IV before. That would be a lot to fit in, in a bebop context where the chords are moving so fast. Maybe, it would be easier in a modal context. I do think the ear just hears it as "playing out". It makes it easier to play a lot of chord extensions (9, 11, 13) using the familiar building blocks of triads and seventh chords.

    The amazing thing is the way Benson makes it sound so effortless, musical and accessible. Does anybody have an example recording and/or transcription where he's using these techniques?
    Well, try with every song he plays.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Just when I thought I was across most harmonic concepts relating to Functional Harmony I came across this quote on a recent thread posted by mikostep :

    ....

    " For example: on Dm7 dorian (So what) soloist have following choices (I'll explain it in steps):
    Step 1 - relatives
    1. Fmaj and Dm
    2. Cmaj (actuall key) and Am.

    Step 2 - dominants
    1. Cmaj-G7 and Am-E7
    2. Fmaj-C7 and Dm-A7

    Step 3 - further development of dominants
    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    Step 3 can be developed in other ways too.
    Now, try to play "So what" with all these choices and remember that all of this can be used harmonically and melodically.
    And this is just the beginning of harmonic possibilities. Another interesting harmonic concept Peter gave us is in the lesson about Harmonic regions. Many classically trained musicians are familiar with Schoenberg harmonic regions. It's similar concept, but with chords that works in jazz. Totally mind blowing lesson. In that lesson he played Blue moon in like 50 different ways. Again, it is possible to use it harmonically and melodically. "

    .....

    So, this, especially after seeing the corresponding Peter Farrell video touching on some of these concepts, has been blowing my mind. Farrell, for all his quirks, has somehow managed the impossible - he has somewhat decoded GB's methodology. He has probably come closest of all who have ever tried to actually describe the thinking behind Benson's line construction, along with many other facets as well.

    Why am I mentioning it here where you can go to the other threads started about Farrell's Benson Method? Because it's frickin' astonishing, that's why! ... And it's not getting the discussion it deserves! OK, I know some peeps consider GB to be just a super charged R&B chops machine, but this sells him criminally short! There is a sophistication and complexity going on under the hood that has baffled most since the 60's. I can remember transcribing some GB solos and just giving up trying to make sense of any analysis. I kinda walked away thinking "This dude gets away with playing anything over anything!".

    Yeah their have been attempts in books to transcribe and decode the GB style, but nothing convincing or groundbreaking. This Farrell fellow has been a private student of George's for years and has been officially sanctioned by George to create a series of books and videos which showcases the GB method. I'm no shill for these products as they are too expensive for me to consider purchasing, but how many of you have watched the free videos? It's akin to someone being shown Charlie Parker's thinking as told directly by Bird himself to the chosen messenger. GB's harmonic thinking is up there with (or in some respects perhaps even beyond) that of Bird, Trane, Wes, Cannonball, Herbie, Hubbard etc and as far as I know there has not been a method of either of these greats created under the auspices of the greats themselves.

    I know that some will pass on the whole deal because it seems like a 5 year course (or more!) on how to be a GB clone, or how to learn a ton of flashy lines with which to fake improv with.... but I'm not interested in that. I wanna know more about the origins of GB's peculiar harmonic insights. Where did he get them from? How much of this thinking was original? For example, does anyone here pull from the following matrix? :

    Over D Dorian:

    1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
    2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
    3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
    4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

    I gotta say, after listening to Farrell (despite his strangely unorthodox presentations!) share some insights into George's thinking, I'm realising GB is probably even more of a freak/genius than I thought he was. Kinda makes much of my previous harmonic "knowledge" redundant.... What do you guys make of it all?


    most ‘harmonic knowledge’ in jazz was invented in 1970ish so that people would have something to teach on jazz courses....

  45. #44

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    So Rob
    The IImin and IVmaj are diatonic subs right
    Cmaj7 is the same as Ami9.

    Cycles are also a mechanical device for organizing movement
    I just use Functional organization for all the magic to have common connections.

    Christian,
    Funny thing is his most of my harmonic knowledge is from centuries ago and just expanded on. Long before I was aware of Jazz I was aware of Schoenberg, Barton, Ives etc..

  46. #45

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    Good quote from a paper I’m reading for an essay. Sven Bjernstedt (2016);

    Several informants agree that jazz education is probably marked by what is easy to teach. They believe that the chord/scale formulaic methods are likely to remain a popular approach in jazz pedagogy for several reasons: it is comparatively easy to verbalize and communicate, it is measurable to some degree, and it has come to be perceived as a stepping stone in improvisational instruction‘

    Interestingly Rick Beato has said the same thing. most musicians do.

    So it would be better to view textbook jazz harmony as a thing that people could do and increasingly did do than any attempt at describing prior practice. George is prior.

    anyway seems like having a pop at CST is basically everyone’s party pastime in the jazz pedagogy literature... it’s like everyone knows it shit, and yet we carry on using it haha.

    but none of this is terribly important in the grand scheme of things. There’s nothing wrong with knowledge or info. As far as I can tell this stuff has been around since Tristano in the 40s (Peter Ind). What’s important is being in the learning environment.

    Everyone on this forum with an interest read Paul Berliners book on Jazz it’s great. None of it will be news to Reg...

    Also as has been repeated harmonic theory (CST or functional harmony for that matter) is not an improvisation method.... Nettles and Graf would tell you that themselves ... not all note choices have a vertical relationship. So why the fuck is jazz improv taught that way so often? (lazy teaching, see above)

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So Rob
    The IImin and IVmaj are diatonic subs right
    Cmaj7 is the same as Ami9.

    Cycles are also a mechanical device for organizing movement
    I just use Functional organization for all the magic to have common connections.

    Christian,
    Funny thing is his most of my harmonic knowledge is from centuries ago and just expanded on. Long before I was aware of Jazz I was aware of Schoenberg, Barton, Ives etc..
    Interesting, how come?

  48. #47

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    Also Bjernstedt has applied a rather cool idea to jazz edu; stolen knowledge, the idea that knowledge is demand side, stolen or cribbed somewhat illicitly. What is learned by a student is not just what is taught.

    Berliner points out that in traditional jazz learning the student determines what they need to learn and acts as a self directed learner. Paul Desmond ‘jazz cannot be taught, jazz can be learned.’

    I believe elsewhere on this forum someone mentioned that taking a lick down from a record was called ‘lifting’ - I believe in hip hop the term is in use for sampling.

    what has happened and one thing that pisses me off about the forum is that information has become massively supply side. People get used to being spoon fed.

  49. #48

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    Which comment?
    Christian... if I’ve pissed you off or did something that ? I apologize...it Ok to disagree. And if I’m just in outer limits, again sorry.
    Reg

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Which comment?
    Christian... if I’ve pissed you off or did something that ? I apologize...it Ok to disagree. And if I’m just in outer limits, again sorry.
    Reg
    Dont worry, nothing like that, think crossed wires?

    interested in how you were interested in 20th century concert music before jazz?

  51. #50

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    Back to basics... if I only had to worry about improv...I wouldn’t be playing that much.
    most of my playing involves horizontal aspect. I use all aspects, vertical organization is always going on also.

    I would say there are many guitarist who can solo really well...very few can comp etc...
    personally I’m just always hearing both... and a bunch of other bs.
    I thought about therapy...but