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  1. #1

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    I read an excelletn Chet Baker biography called Deep in a Dream. There was an eye opening passage discussing the Baker/Getz tour in the 80's. One of the musicians on the tour (sorry can't remember who, a friend has the book) said it was interesting to compare the different approaches of Chet and Stan. He says that while Stan always relied on the same licks for certain progressions Chet always took a chance and tried something different. He mentions that sometimes it was a bit of a car crash but his impression was Chet was always in the moment while Stan was happy to play what he always played.

    I have to relisten to some of the clips on Youtube but I was interested in anyone's thoughts on this? This is not intended to denigrate Stan's playing, I just thought it was an interesting comment and something I had not really thought about before. I made me think of a story that Miles Davis fired George Coleman for practicing his solos before gigs (not sure if this is an apocryphal story!).

    Sorry not sure if this should be in "players" or "improv" so please move if needed.

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  3. #2

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    Here's a relevant quote from pianist Jim McNeely:

    EI: Contrast playing with Joe Henderson versus Stan Getz.

    JM: Well, I think the biggest difference was in their sounds. Stan’s sound was very big and Joe’s sound was relatively small, but he knew how to use a microphone to make it sound big. And their time feels – Stan was right down the middle, Joe tended to be a little more on top. He had worked out certain patterns, OK, so it’s eighth notes, but groups of 5 or 7, groupings like that. Some things he played weren’t even in time, they were just kind of gestures over the basic time.

    You know it’s funny, both guys, if you played with them for a while, you’d realize they had things that they would do on certain tunes. I think we all do that. But with Joe, there was more of a feeling of being the last car on a roller coaster where you’re just being whipped around, you’re just trying to keep up with the guy: he’s turning this way and that way, and you’re just trying to hold on and keep up with him.

    Stan was probably more…I don’t say this in a bad way, more predictable, there were things you knew he’d do on certain tunes. In a way, you’d lay for them, you’d knew that on the 4th chorus he was going to do this thing, and then you’d get in with him simultaneously. So in that sense, he and the rhythm section were building the solo, the solo was becoming not a composed piece but a, I don’t know, a pre-formatted event that you were all responsible for supporting. With Joe, you never quite knew what he was going to do, and it was more spontaneous, and that feeling of let’s just hang on, and try and keep up with this guy.

    Interview with Jim McNeely | DO THE M@TH

  4. #3

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    I understand what you’re saying. I think with some guys—Joe Pass comes to mind—they are monster players, but they build up this inventory of riffs that they call on in fairly predictable ways. That doesn’t mean it’s not enjoyable, but it’s not seat-of-the-pants improvisation, either. Though I think Pass could and did do that in certain settings when he wanted to, and I’m sure Getz as well.

    I’m not an authority on late Chet (or early for that matter), but I think sometimes with some technical limitations you are forced to think outside the box, and that can be really interesting. I find this for a lot of rock musicians as well.

  5. #4

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    chet was too ripped for structure...from very early on in his career...he winged it with a precise musical inherent sense..i always compare it to walking a tightrope...you can hear him making his way down the line..sometimes perilous...but most times he arrived at the other side sweetly...he did a beatles covers side with bud shank..you can hear he knew very little about the melodies..yet he pulled it off..he was extremely musical..innate..fellow musicians of his time have said the same...he was a wonder..but a great one

    listen to his later euro dates with doug raney and nhop..hes walking fine lines..but 9x out of 10 breaks on thru...a natural!!!

    check the film with ethan hawke as chet...insightful

    viva chet

    cheers

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 44lombard
    Here's a relevant quote from pianist Jim McNeely:

    EI: Contrast playing with Joe Henderson versus Stan Getz.

    JM: Well, I think the biggest difference was in their sounds. Stan’s sound was very big and Joe’s sound was relatively small, but he knew how to use a microphone to make it sound big. And their time feels – Stan was right down the middle, Joe tended to be a little more on top. He had worked out certain patterns, OK, so it’s eighth notes, but groups of 5 or 7, groupings like that. Some things he played weren’t even in time, they were just kind of gestures over the basic time.

    You know it’s funny, both guys, if you played with them for a while, you’d realize they had things that they would do on certain tunes. I think we all do that. But with Joe, there was more of a feeling of being the last car on a roller coaster where you’re just being whipped around, you’re just trying to keep up with the guy: he’s turning this way and that way, and you’re just trying to hold on and keep up with him.

    Stan was probably more…I don’t say this in a bad way, more predictable, there were things you knew he’d do on certain tunes. In a way, you’d lay for them, you’d knew that on the 4th chorus he was going to do this thing, and then you’d get in with him simultaneously. So in that sense, he and the rhythm section were building the solo, the solo was becoming not a composed piece but a, I don’t know, a pre-formatted event that you were all responsible for supporting. With Joe, you never quite knew what he was going to do, and it was more spontaneous, and that feeling of let’s just hang on, and try and keep up with this guy.

    Interview with Jim McNeely | DO THE M@TH
    Interesting interview thanks!

  7. #6

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    The whole concert is on YouTube by the way (the pianist is Jim McNeely who was mentioned above). Apparently Stan hadn’t seen Chet for ages and was expecting a clapped-out junkie, so Stan thought he would be the star of the show. He was surprised to find Chet in pretty good shape (for him) and playing well, and getting more applause than him! He wasn’t too pleased about that.


  8. #7

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    digging Chet’s chunky blue knitwear, dressed for Stockholm weather!

  9. #8

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    I’ve read several things where people say that Getz eventually arrived at a point where he wanted everything to sound perfect and polished, so he ended up focussing on his sound perhaps at the expense of his improvising. But I guess that’s a reasonable approach, it does make his later records very enjoyable to listen to.

    Whereas Chet always played by ear and ‘winged it’. So although he could be patchy, his solos always featured moments of great freshness and beauty, along with occasional awkward gaps and odd phrases. You can hear he often started a phrase on beat 2 or 3, as if he was just waiting a microsecond to hear the chord change. I read somewhere that on gigs he would often ask the pianist to play the first note of the tune, that was all he needed to get started.

    I like them both, but I suppose I end up listening to Chet more often, because of those great moments.

  10. #9

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    I think there's a movie to be made out of the story of Chet and Stan and the journey from 1953 to 1983. They both had moments of actual pop music stardom in their careers, and then "stuff happened" (jail, fusion music, having one's teeth knocked out, etc.).

    Then acoustic jazz experiences something of an upsurge in the early '80s, at the point where these two can qualify in age and accomplishment as "legends", and they go on tour together, each fighting a raging addiction, each emotionally stunted and full of contempt for the other, and the collaboration ends on a sour note, then Getz goes off to an artist-in-residence gig at Stanford which turns into something of a fiasco while Chet keeps drifting around Europe looking for any gig and any fix he can get. Calling Mike Leigh...here's your next script

  11. #10

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    Nobody even wanted to go see the Miles movie.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I’ve read several things where people say that Getz eventually arrived at a point where he wanted everything to sound perfect and polished, so he ended up focussing on his sound perhaps at the expense of his improvising. But I guess that’s a reasonable approach, it does make his later records very enjoyable to listen to.

    Whereas Chet always played by ear and ‘winged it’. So although he could be patchy, his solos always featured moments of great freshness and beauty, along with occasional awkward gaps and odd phrases. You can hear he often started a phrase on beat 2 or 3, as if he was just waiting a microsecond to hear the chord change. I read somewhere that on gigs he would often ask the pianist to play the first note of the tune, that was all he needed to get started.

    I like them both, but I suppose I end up listening to Chet more often, because of those great moments.
    I think that is why I prefer Chet, I play by ear and wing it most times lol.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 44lombard
    I think there's a movie to be made out of the story of Chet and Stan and the journey from 1953 to 1983. They both had moments of actual pop music stardom in their careers, and then "stuff happened" (jail, fusion music, having one's teeth knocked out, etc.).

    Then acoustic jazz experiences something of an upsurge in the early '80s, at the point where these two can qualify in age and accomplishment as "legends", and they go on tour together, each fighting a raging addiction, each emotionally stunted and full of contempt for the other, and the collaboration ends on a sour note, then Getz goes off to an artist-in-residence gig at Stanford which turns into something of a fiasco while Chet keeps drifting around Europe looking for any gig and any fix he can get. Calling Mike Leigh...here's your next script
    Why was Stan's Stanford gig a disaster?

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The whole concert is on YouTube by the way (the pianist is Jim McNeely who was mentioned above). Apparently Stan hadn’t seen Chet for ages and was expecting a clapped-out junkie, so Stan thought he would be the star of the show. He was surprised to find Chet in pretty good shape (for him) and playing well, and getting more applause than him! He wasn’t too pleased about that.

    Oh fantastic will watch this!

  15. #14

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    Like all great jazz improvisers, Getz combined true improvisation with planned patterns and pre-planned architectural ideas for how he was going to approach a tune. He was such a canny veteran that he could beautifully hide the seams between the two. His tone became deeper and more throaty in his later years and he took on challenging content more regularly. I adore his tone from the late 40s through the 70s before that gossamer sound, in my view, coarsened.
    Even John Coltrane said of Getz's sound "Let's face it, we'd all sound like that if we could."

    If you really want to go deep in the Stan Getz weeds, there's this:

    https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files...dKCovuotSOmEDI

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    Why was Stan's Stanford gig a disaster?
    According to McNeely in the interview on Do the M@th (linked above), Getz bailed on a planned concert and recording session with Dizzy Gillespie and seriously vandalized the borrowed house he was staying in during some kind of fit of rage or frustration (the house of a Stanford prof. who was abroad, iirc). McNeely lays the blame on Getz's addiction problems. It was such a bad scene that McNeely quit the band for a while to get away from Getz. McNeely doesn't say one way or the other if anything positive happened in classrooms or clinics...I suppose its possible that some students got something out of it.

  17. #16

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    Stan was an addict, a narcissist and a mentally ill person who badly treated many around him - especially his family. It's a sad story made all the more remarkable by the consistent excellence of his music. This book is very well researched and written and tells the story well - both the music and every nook and cranny of his shambles of a personal life. It's mind boggling to learn that his wife felt she had to go so far as to poison his drinks (without his knowledge) with Antabuse - a drug that would make him throw up immediately if he consumed alcohol. To some, the torrid details are a distraction for others they illuminate the music via a fuller picture of a tortured soul.

    https://www.amazon.com/Stan-Getz-Lif...0064769&sr=8-1

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV
    Like all great jazz improvisers, Getz combined true improvisation with planned patterns and pre-planned architectural ideas for how he was going to approach a tune. He was such a canny veteran that he could beautifully hide the seams between the two. His tone became deeper and more throaty in his later years and he took on challenging content more regularly. I adore his tone from the late 40s through the 70s before that gossamer sound, in my view, coarsened.
    Even John Coltrane said of Getz's sound "Let's face it, we'd all sound like that if we could."

    If you really want to go deep in the Stan Getz weeds, there's this:

    https://etda.libraries.psu.edu/files...dKCovuotSOmEDI
    Getz was a strong believer in trying to reach what he called 'the alpha state', an advanced state of mind where you seem to get in touch with some type of higher force that seems to be playing the instrument through you.
    Jimmy Raney, who worked with Getz in both the Herman Band, and Getz' Quintet, also believed in something similar (although he never called it the alpha-state), and I witnessed it live once, and it was the most powerful thing I've ever experienced musically.

  19. #18

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    Interesting!

    I saw him live once, in the mid 1980s on the jazz boat in Boston Harbor. He was in terrific form and very playful - a tugboat sounded its horn in the middle of his solo and Getz's matched the tug on his horn. He was chain smoking and the smoke billowed out through his horn.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyV
    Interesting!

    I saw him live once, in the mid 1980s on the jazz boat in Boston Harbor. He was in terrific form and very playful - a tugboat sounded its horn in the middle of his solo and Getz's matched the tug on his horn. He was chain smoking and the smoke billowed out through his horn.
    I was talking about seeing Raney live, not Getz.
    I just got off the phone with an old sax player friend of mine, who was raving about Getz' solo on "Move" from the album he made with the quintet he had with Raney at Storyville. He still can't get over the ability Getz had to play burning tempos like that, and still be able to play incredibly beautiful lines. Raney had that same ability when I saw him live, also.
    My friend said that Getz had a photographic memory. When he played with the Woody Herman big band, he only had to look at the charts for a week, and then he was able to play the entire book (which must have consisted of at least 100 tunes) WITHOUT ever looking at the book again.
    Couple that with a sound Trane admired, and maybe an extraordinary musical memory, and you get Getz.

    The record that he made with Eddie Sauter and an orchestra, "Focus", is probably one of the crowning achievements in jazz history.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim

    The record that he made with Eddie Sauter and an orchestra, "Focus", is probably one of the crowning achievements in jazz history.
    you got that right!!!

    i'd add art peppers later (1980) winter moon recording...equal to getz focus for tone and lushness


    good post!

    cheers

  22. #21

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    Getz/ Raney was an incredible pairing , sgcim's assessment is dead on, those 2 sounded like brothers musically, pretty uncanny when you think about it.
    And NA's comment is reflected in my username, even though I revere tbe Hoagy Carmichael version w Pepper on Hoagy's 'Hoagy plays Carmichael' on Pacific Jazz lp, actually heard the Pepper led version w strings first, bought it when it came out, a watershed lp for me personally, my favorite Pepper recording along w the 1st Rhythm Section lp w Red, Paul and Philly Joe....Art really is at his zenith here, teetering on 'out' but still so in...incredible recording

  23. #22

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    one of my fave getz/raney...parker 51...a raney tune! obviously a nod to charlie parker...but parker 51 was actualy a classic parker brand fountain pen...jimmy raney genius humor!!...jim hall loved raneys humor!

    getz was nicknamed the sound!! he was all tone...closest ive ever heard was desmond, but on alto!!

    a tone that said everything..with one note or a flurry

    listen to what jimmy raney does on this!! his picking!...he was a bird disciple and investigated all means to get him to that sound! well done!!




    cheers

    ps- seem to recall a later interview with art pepper where he says winter moon was his proudest effort!!...not a bad one to choose!!! amongst a few!
    Last edited by neatomic; 01-27-2020 at 02:22 AM.

  24. #23

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    From the aforementioned wintermoon lp, "when the sun comes out".......


  25. #24

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    After reading this discussion of Getz and Raney, I have to dig out my Stan Getz at Storyville Vol 1 & 2 CD and give it a listen.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    one of my fave getz/raney...parker 51...a raney tune! obviously a nod to charlie parker...but parker 51 was actualy a classic parker brand fountain pen...jimmy raney genius humor!!...jim hall loved raneys humor!

    getz was nicknamed the sound!! he was all tone...closest ive ever heard was desmond, but on alto!!

    a tone that said everything..with one note or a flurry

    listen to what jimmy raney does on this!! his picking!...he was a bird disciple and investigated all means to get him to that sound! well done!!





    cheers

    ps- seem to recall a later interview with art pepper where he says winter moon was his proudest effort!!...not a bad one to choose!!! amongst a few!
    Give up hope all amateur players listening to this.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Give up hope all amateur players listening to this.
    haha...i get ya, but lets hope it encourages rather than dissuades!

    you can hear a very early precursor to allan holdworths legato on that track...parker 51

    and here's what allan said about raney...from Interview with Allan Holdsworth

    TCG: Were there any guitarists later on that you listened to?

    AH: I was extremely fond of Jimmy Raney. Of course there was Joe Pass, Tal Farlow and Barney Kessel. My dad bought lots of records to expose me to all this great music. Joe Pass' album Catch Me was mind boggling. But there was something about Jimmy Raney's sound that I loved. My favorite was a recording called Jimmy Raney In Three Attitudes which I lost during my move from England. I'm still trying to find the recording. He played a tune called "So In Love" and his solo is absolutely amazing.


    cheers


  28. #27

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    As a youngster I first heard Jimmy Raney and Stan Getz on an old Vinyl
    record , and thought it was two tenors playing in unison ! The only two
    Jazz Guitarists I knew were Tal & Jimmy. On first hearing Tal with Red Norvo
    I wrongly imagined the record was at the incorrect speed.
    Jimmy & Stan were a formidable duo. later ,Bob Brookmeyer on Valve Trombone
    with JR was an incredible pairing. I saw Bob live with Gerry Mulligan in the Uk
    and had a brief conversation with Tal on one visit to the UK.
    Jimmy Raney remained my all time favourite player, he never stopped over in
    the Uk as far as I was aware, although spent a lot of time in France.
    His music is still valid today, many try to emulate him. I just wish I could.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Give up hope all amateur players listening to this.
    If Raney’s guitar playing is too difficult to emulate, you could perhaps aim lower and try to copy his singing instead. (The other vocalist is Blossom Dearie.)


  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    parker 51 was actualy a classic parker brand fountain pen...
    Office Swing, Unidentified Miscellaneous Objects, 80s Patlotch

    (In french trombone = paper clip)


  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    Office Swing, Unidentified Miscellaneous Objects, 80s Patlotch

    (In french trombone = paper clip)


    great!!! clever!

    good album cover!


    cheers

    ps- sax 'n bone

    Last edited by neatomic; 01-27-2020 at 10:39 PM.

  32. #31

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    Chet Baker Stan Getz, different improv approaches in 80s tour-53e7ae22-820b-4cc4-b821-435b680ce472-jpg

  33. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by 44lombard
    According to McNeely in the interview on Do the M@th (linked above), Getz bailed on a planned concert and recording session with Dizzy Gillespie and seriously vandalized the borrowed house he was staying in during some kind of fit of rage or frustration (the house of a Stanford prof. who was abroad, iirc). McNeely lays the blame on Getz's addiction problems. It was such a bad scene that McNeely quit the band for a while to get away from Getz. McNeely doesn't say one way or the other if anything positive happened in classrooms or clinics...I suppose its possible that some students got something out of it.
    Thanks for the story!

  34. #33

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    one more on the raney train...in 1954 jimmy went to france as part of an american jazzmen tour..w sonny clark..also played with red norvo...he immediately won the best jazz guitarist in the most respected french jazz poll...and was huge influence on rene thomas..(a great himself!) who followed jimmy around

    heres killer version of cherokee




    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 01-28-2020 at 10:43 PM. Reason: sgcim-

  35. #34

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    I did some gigs with Vera Auer, the Austrian vibes player, and she said JR would stay at her house when he was in Europe. She said he was trying to quit some addictive substance, and he would be climbing the walls while he was there, but even in that condition, he still sounded perfect when he'd play his gigs at night!

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    one more on the raney train...in 1954 jimmy went to france as part of an american jazzmen tour..w buddy clark..also played with red norvo...he immediately won the best jazz guitarist in the most respected french jazz poll...and was huge influence on rene thomas..(a great himself!) who followed jimmy around

    heres killer version of cherokee




    cheers
    I think you meant Sonny Clark.

  37. #36

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    I saw Getz in Chateauvallon in 1971, the year of Ronnie Scott's in London with René Thomas


    the concert was calamitous. He practically prevented Bernard Lubat and Eddy Louiss from playing. It wasn't just a personal impression, the press reported on it

    The next day, as if to make amends by the public, Getz joined Dizzy Gillespie's quintet with Johnny Griffin. There he was great, the tenor chases were impressive


    as a subscriber to the festival, you could attend rehearsals, in full sun, Dizzy in shorts. We asked for the classics of the bebop, he played them with pleasure ...

    Chet, I met him at the café near my work Boulevard Saint-Germain. He was at the counter. I slipped near him, but I was so moved that I could not speak to him

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    I saw Getz in Chateauvallon in 1971, the year of Ronnie Scott's in London with René Thomas


    the concert was calamitous. He practically prevented Bernard Lubat and Eddy Louiss from playing. It wasn't just a personal impression, the press reported on it

    The next day, as if to make amends by the public, Getz joined Dizzy Gillespie's quintet with Johnny Griffin. There he was great, the tenor chases were impressive


    as a subscriber to the festival, you could attend rehearsals, in full sun, Dizzy in shorts. We asked for the classics of the bebop, he played them with pleasure ...

    Chet, I met him at the café near my work Boulevard Saint-Germain. He was at the counter. I slipped near him, but I was so moved that I could not speak to him
    Wow that's an interesting story. I'm sure there are tons of stories out there about Getz' bad behavior. I actually went to school with one of his sons, I think a son from his first wife--not a close friend, he was a year or 2 behind me. I don't think that Getz was around much for that son while he was growing up, but they did reconcile in the 80's and he talked about how Getz had mellowed with time. He (the son) became a concert promoter and tennis coach, and was living in Florida the last I knew.

    The only jazz great I have ever met personally was Steve Turre. I sat next to him at the bar of the Village Vanguard during a break in Woody Shaw's show. We chitchatted a little bit--he seemed like a really pleasant, down-to-earth guy.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
    ...
    great artists are generally not models of virtue. Who cares?

    I think that dating Baudelaire, Verlaine or Rimbaud was not always pleasant, especially for women, and in this area, the world of jazz is quite terrible, it was for a long time a world dominated by men, and it is not over. And with it, men's competition against women, and competition between musicians themselves

    above a certain level, I guess that no longer comes into play. Coltrane was not threatened by Rollins, nor Miles by Chet, Getz by Wayne Shorter... That's why I don't understand this attitude from Getz in Chateauvallon. The next day after the concert, I met Eddy Louiss and Bernard Lubat in the castle park, and since I didn't understand what had happened on stage, I asked them wickedly: "Do you ever play well?". Eddy Louiss gave me a big smile: "Everyone knows not"

    (Actually, I think he'd smoked a lot of drugs, this may explain that...)

  40. #39

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    getz had rough life...was on the road with bands at 15!!! got into all that went with it back then...early on...eventually spent 6 months in tough la county jail...was being processed for arrest when his kids were being born..terrible stuff..

    but he was still "the sound"...nobody blew the tenor sweeter...maybe since lester..who was haunted himself!!

    forget the rhetoric and listen to the actual music

    miles was no sweetie either...

    just stay out of the way (as much as you can) and let'em blow...thats what they do best

    cheers

    ps- i thought the best thing about getz vid above ^ with diz and griffin is that he walks on in middle of dizs opening play..and then as he cuts in..he hands diz his mouthpiece cover!!!..what kinda move was that?!! haha...unless it was loaded

  41. #40

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    "
    The next day after the concert, I met Eddy Louiss and Bernard Lubat in the castle park, and since I didn't understand what had happened on stage, I asked them wickedly:
    "Do you ever play well?".
    Eddy Louiss gave me a big smile:
    "Everyone knows not"



    this has been one of my favorite youtube videos from jump. it gets posted and taken down every few yrs.
    Rene w/the father of bebop drumming Kenny Clarke [sounds pretty good in an organ trio, but he was playing w/these cats regularly @ the time, they made several outstanding lps] and the hugely underrated aforementioned Eddy Louiss on organ doing Rene's "Meeting"


  42. #41

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    ^ classic clip! you can see and hear the jimmy raney influence on rene clearly...non cutaway arch...picking!...

    great trio

    louiss has a distinctive tone..not as hard as most usa guys


    cheers

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    ...
    I know this record well, and to be honest it's not my favorite Eddy Louiss trio, there is a real style shift with the drumming of Kenny Clarke (the bebop drumming is not very lyrical, compared to Jack Dejohnette's generation...). I prefer what he did with Daniel Humair and Jean-Luc Ponty

    or in the beautiful recording in Japan with Humair and John Surman

    I saw Eddy Louiss with Daniel Humair in a duet at the Higher Normal School Rue d'Ulm, a scuffling concert! There were 30 people in the room...

    it was a period when I never missed Eddy Louiss, I listened to him sitting at the foot of the organ or accompanying Claude Nougaro. I liked less what he did later, with synthesizers, he was sick ...
    Last edited by Patlotch; 01-30-2020 at 01:40 AM.

  44. #43

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    Another story about Getz being a bad boy was the time he appeared with the Bill Evans Trio in Europe.
    They had gotten together for a rehearsal in the afternoon, and came up with a song list.

    At the concert that night, they started playing, and Getz all of a sudden decides to play a song that they didn't rehearse!
    The concert was video-taped, and you can see Bill Evans sitting on his hands, refusing to play.
    Then Evans motions to Eddie Gomez to stop playing, and then the drummer stops playing, and Getz keeps playing alone for a little while.
    Getz realizes what's going on and eventually stops playing.
    To make up for what he did, Getz grabs the mic, and announces that it's Bill Evans' birthday, and he plays an unaccompanied version of "Happy Birthday" for Evans.
    I actually saw the video tape of this!

  45. #44

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    we can still see that neither Stan Getz nor Chet Baker participated in bold musical ventures in the 1950s, heralding free jazz, such as Jimmy Raney, Jimmy Giuffre, John Lewis, Jim Hall among others

    I aim here not the most tumultuous free jazz, but the one that borrows from classical and contemporary music with real laboratories, from Tristano (Sextet 1949) to Gunther Schuller (Jazz Abstractions) through Mingus (Workshop), Teddy Charles (New Directions Quartet)

  46. #45

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    I'm a huge fan of both men's work.

    Does anyone here remember Bob Brookmeyer's old website (ca late '90s-early '00s)? He tilted at windmills a lot, but imparted lots of wisdom too.

    Re Stan: (paraphrased) 'X is an improviser, and Stan is a performer---and I wouldn't touch a hair on either of their heads'.

    What Getz did to challenge himself and grow was to change the settings---get younger players with new concepts and compositions in his groups. (Similar to what Miles did---neither changed their actual playing all that much. Miles became more chromatic and more aggressive from the '60s on, Stan's sound got more muscular).

    And yes, Mr. Baker was the 'purer' improviser. But he had his licks and strategies too. Everyone playing solos needs some focus---some 'glue'...

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    we can still see that neither Stan Getz nor Chet Baker participated in bold musical ventures in the 1950s, heralding free jazz, such as Jimmy Raney, Jimmy Giuffre, John Lewis, Jim Hall among others
    Not exactly: Chet recorded an album with many compositions by the innovative, visionary Bob Zieff---back in the '50s...

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf
    I'm a huge fan of both men's work. [...]

    What Getz did to challenge himself and grow was to change the settings---get younger players with new concepts and compositions in his groups. (Similar to what Miles did---neither changed their actual playing all that much. Miles became more chromatic and more aggressive from the '60s on, Stan's sound got more muscular). [...]
    I also like them very much, that is not the point. I made an objective observation, as to their place in the history of jazz and its evolution, which does not detract from their talent as improvisers

    that said, notwithstanding their evolution, for Getz in reality according to what was in vogue (bossa nova...), you remove them from this history, and you deprive it of two essential musicians in their time, but you do not change anything to this historical evolution. Comparing Getz and Miles is not very relevant from this point of view, since Miles is responsible for 3 or 4 musical changes that influenced the sequel. Without him, the Jazz would have been different, without Getz and Chet, not really

    Art Blakey is one of the greatest new talent recruiters who will become top musicians. However, the style of Jazz Messengers has not essentially changed

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    Comparing Getz and Miles is not very relevant from this point of view, since Miles is responsible for 3 or 4 musical changes that influenced the sequel. Without him, the Jazz would have been different, without Getz and Chet, not really
    I made the comparison only in the narrow sense of both changing the settings, nothing about innovating or changing music. Sorry if that wasn't clear...

  50. #49

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    Also, Patlotch:

    True game changers are rare. Musical change occurs maybe once every few decades, and usually spurred by more than one person thinking alike. The 'great man' theory is overrated.

    There are also many ways to be great, and re-inventing the wheel is only one. A musician like Barry Harris is satisfied with the harmony of the '40s-'50s. That certainly doesn't mean he has nothing to say. Many very respectable artists make their work developing and personalizing the existing language. Refinement is important b/c innovators can have rough edges. The thing gets smoother, sometimes, sadly, to the point of cliche'---then another wave of innovation occurs. It's a natural cycle.

    But thank goodness for the 'soldiers' who refine and develop---in their own voices...

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    we are not in a general and abstract discussion, but with regard to my remark, that of Stan Getz and Chet Baker's report to the history of jazz, to which I have been interested since 1966, on which I have written texts and books, and which I think of know pretty well

    I am not in favour of cutting this story into slices, the ones found in the stockings of record stores when they were the main medium of this music. The changes are profound, have sociological, racial, musical reasons, etc. They are carried by hundreds of musicians at every stage, and represented by the "Greats" who have had a little more importance at that time, because they have felt and grasped the need to change, and not just themselves, their sound, their goal... A bit like Bob Dylan sang "The Times they are a changing"

    this remark came to me without a priori, noticing the absence of Getz and Chet in the moments that marked or directed these changes for dozens, hundreds of musicians including some with unknown names. There are still some, as milestones, discs I've cited, and others. Knowing them seems to me to be unavoidable for those interested in the history of jazz, musically first, and everything you want with it. Plus, it's beautiful music, and far from being as well known as Getz and Chet Baker

    there are musicians in these records, almost never mentioned, who participated in these changes without making much noise, I quoted Jim Hall and Jimmy Raney, John Lewis (outside the MJQ), Scott La Faro (before bill Evans' quartet), and it's worth being noted, in a remarkable interracial mix
    Agree---especially about the group effort and *under-credited musicians who were a big part of it all.

    *What can we do? That's life---sigh...