The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Posts 226 to 250 of 268
  1. #226

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    That's not BS, that's exactly it. You analyzed it very well, bravo. Timing is what separate them, the time feel. My teacher used to say jazz is sex + math, so these new players, post PM and Sco, it's just math.
    They think jazz is Sax and math.

    At least it’s not Sax and meth.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #227

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    At least it’s not Sax and meth.
    Coltrane was really close to this, and we can not complain about the result :-)

  4. #228

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    It is real interesting how we see some things so identically, and regarding the very same aspect with other players so differently.
    For example about time...

    I think PMs words about time and good drummer may be misinterpreted. In my understanding he talks about a very precise drummer, not a real swinging drummer.
    This seems to be according my perception about PMs time is way more close to the "next generation" than to Sco's. Without linking the videos, please refer to Sco's Alone Together I posted, what is a real swing time, any horn player from 50s 60s, 70s could be proud of it. Then listen any PMs 8th, for example the teaching video (actually a tape, but on youtube), it is more even, fluid. This is consistent what PMs say about the importance of playing with a good drummer, when learning, practicing. He recommends it instead metronome.

    Yes I know. There are inconsistencies in my theory: Jack DeJohnette on 80/81 swings like hell (btw that's what we should call "good time").I mean for example how Jack ends Turnaround on 80/81, it itself worth zillion words about rythm.

    We should say: Jack is swinging like hell, so PM does not need to: He can float in a very fluid way over Jack, or even he can play his trademark polyrythms, the swing is already provided. (Just for the record, Charlie Haden is there too) Which is OK, just see it where the good rythm is coming from..Actually this produce really great result.

    PM has extraordinary time in the meaning, he can do anything, without be out of sync, like he has an internal clock. He itself said in the very same teching video, inside the tick must be go on with the speedest metric what you are intending to play. What is the exact opposite what is swing, and what Jack is doing.

    In case he plays alone (again the teaching video, or the solo ATTYA with the 2/4 metronom on the stage), we can hear an extraordinary fluid but even 16th with interesting accents. + plus interesting trademarks like 5 over 4.

    So I really do not see any common in Sco's time and PM's time.
    What I actually said is they view rhythm as an expressive, artistic element of their music, certainly not that Sco and Pat have similar time feel.

    I think a lot of more contemporary players see rhythm as more of a clock time thing. This is becoming more and more the case actually, not just in jazz. DAWs and so on. Most of the modern players have very accurate, but kind of cold time/feel.

    Pat learned on the bandstand, schooled by older musicians. His generation had more opportunities to gig with experienced players.

    It’s a mindset difference with the way I was taught rhythm which was ‘fix that shit with a metronome’. What I took from Pat’s lesson was that this was helpful but no substitute for playing regularly with world class players. Which is tbf a bit easier if you are Pat :-)

    Really good time feel is not actually metronomic, even if it seems like it is. Try setting a metronome to Stevie Wonder .... or try setting a metronome and walking down the street to it. It’s an interesting experience.

  5. #229

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    They think jazz is Sax and math.

    At least it’s not Sax and meth.
    Reminded me of this memo. It's not about jazz, ok, just a general shift in vibes I guess.

    Can't get into Pat Metheny-71217198_2682750095076606_7692253325823049728_n-jpg

  6. #230

    User Info Menu

    It's interesting how people can hear a musician in what seems to be completely different, even opposing, ways. That's part of what makes these conversations interesting.

  7. #231

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    It's interesting how people can hear a musician in what seems to be completely different, even opposing, ways. That's part of what makes these conversations interesting.
    100% agree with this.

  8. #232

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    What I actually said is they view rhythm as an expressive, artistic element of their music, certainly not that Sco and Pat have similar time feel.

    I think a lot of more contemporary players see rhythm as more of a clock time thing.
    Yes, I pretty much got that, maybe my answer was not that clear. I tried to say that despite of Sco and PM is the same generation and probably has the same old school, PM see as rhythm more as a "clock time thing". Many of his statements implies it, and consistently I feel it in his music too. I tried to refer to his plays in 80/81, the trainer/student video and the ATTYA video.

    Rick Beato has a good post about how modern computing kills music via DAWs by rhythm equalization. He demonstrates it on a John Bonham track.

    ***

    What I am wondering, I think no serious musician, especially jazz or classical musician can think about time as a clock thing. The groove and the expression comes from bending the time. Both PM and the new generation are serious musicians so we got a contradiction here...

  9. #233

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Yes, I pretty much got that, maybe my answer was not that clear. I tried to say that despite of Sco and PM is the same generation and probably has the same old school, PM see as rhythm more as a "clock time thing". Many of his statements implies it, and consistently I feel it in his music too. I tried to refer to his plays in 80/81, the trainer/student video and the ATTYA video.

    Rick Beato has a good post about how modern computing kills music via DAWs by rhythm equalization. He demonstrates it on a John Bonham track.

    ***

    What I am wondering, I think no serious musician, especially jazz or classical musician can think about time as a clock thing. The groove and the expression comes from bending the time. Both PM and the new generation are serious musicians so we got a contradiction here...
    I think that's where I disagree, PM doesn't see rhythm as a 'clock time thing' at all to me. I'm judging by the music I've heard from his recordings. His phrasing is a lot of playing around the beat in a slick way. Nothing computerized in the feel, at all! To my ears, anyway.

    As of the contradiction you talked about, I feel like that elusive rhythm 'thing' comes from an attitude, a bravado if you will, something you learn 'on the street', not in a classroom. Today's jazz guitar world is very self absorbed. I feel like the audience is primarily the same music school nerds as the players. That breeds a certain vibe. I don't think it was necessarily the case in the past. Like, I wouldn't take my date to Lage Lund show for instance haha, but to Sco concert, yes!

    Anyway, just thoughts.

  10. #234

    User Info Menu

    I just thought that also in jazz area there is a tendency to overestimation artists. I think partly it comes becasue of practical jazz instrumentalism - it is part of tradition in the style.

    I do not want to say names to avoid negative effect because actually I truely admire many of them.

    But still when I look at the current 'heroes' I see a huge difference between them and figures like Wes or Pat or Sco or Frisell... (and I do not even mention someine like Bird or Trane).

    There was some kind of personal fundamentality. Very strong 'I' with background, with his soil under his feet, with his fathers behind. Personality felt as deeply rooted, it does not mean you could easily name these roots but you felt its presence. This is where true conviction comes from.

    The word individual litterally means 'inseparable', 'indivisible'... personal integrity is fundamental part of European conception of Art.

    I guess it is not only about tendencies in jazz music today but also about changing of conception of personality, human indivduality in general.
    Those 'old school' players seem to belong to (already probably totally exhausted) tradition of European (and thus American too) humanism... I feel that their general values are more or less similar to my values (though I am much younger - and this pushes me to certain degeree out of modern social context).

    Again I do not want to say that modern players are not human but definitely fundamental priciples of human individuality like feeling of time, space, perconal position in time and space, what is expression and what is impression, and what is thought and what is sentiment and so on and so on - they changed very significantly to such an extent that often people look the same, do approximately the same, speak the same but something is so different that actually one may ask oneself what is human and what is not? (I know it is a risky question from moral point of view, but I hope I do it in the circle or reasonable people).
    So in my opinion that means a change in critereria that may stay yet unnoticed. In other words people already live and make art in the world of different values but it si not realized yet in the concious cultural level and is being internalized and analyzed and discussed in terms of the culture that does nto exist any more.


    The newer players I think see timing more as a science.
    And this is also general cultural change in perception and mode of thinking... I personally deviate artistic and scientific modes of perception. Though I understand that in medieval times it was more synthetic and could hardly be even definied (even these notions did not exist).
    But today it seems we are already behind even scientific one as dominating and are at the point of some new appraoch.

    But for the topic - I think their approach is not specifically scientific (acdemy, books, modes), their mindset is (objectivism, systematism, regularity, even conception of "person in a world" (as opposed to the world in a person) etc.).)
    I noticed the old school players approach everything as if they know and understand it, new school - as if they do not know and do not understand but want to learn... it is also scientific conception... 'I am here (alone?) in the unknown world', curiousity to some to 'otherness' is also scientific quality as opposed to recognition and respond to 'selfness'.
    Complex topic...
    Last edited by Jonah; 09-26-2019 at 05:14 AM.

  11. #235

    User Info Menu

    I wonder if it s the new work? Meetings, micromanaging, tiny tasks. As opposed to 40 years ago where there was Les reliance on computers and more on big ideas and risk?

    Not at all to disparage anyone, just moving the idea beyond just guitar

  12. #236

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Yes, I pretty much got that, maybe my answer was not that clear. I tried to say that despite of Sco and PM is the same generation and probably has the same old school, PM see as rhythm more as a "clock time thing". Many of his statements implies it, and consistently I feel it in his music too. I tried to refer to his plays in 80/81, the trainer/student video and the ATTYA video.
    MAYBE. I do think he is more like, for instance, Gilad Heckselman than John Scofield, but I still feel his time is quite slippery in an interesting sort of way. He doesn't swing in the same way as the old guys, but he has a very human thing. I don't get the impression that Pat learned to play in time by playing with a metronome (or drum machine obv). This may have been something he taught to try and fix players that didn't have his time/feel. Remember, he was an educator before he was a guitar star.

    If you have any interview evidence to the contrary, would be interested to see it.

    Rick Beato has a good post about how modern computing kills music via DAWs by rhythm equalization. He demonstrates it on a John Bonham track.

    ***
    Yeah I was thinking of Rick's video. In another video (can't remember which one) he said there are now drummers who can't play without a click. They have no internal pulse.

    What I am wondering, I think no serious musician, especially jazz or classical musician can think about time as a clock thing. The groove and the expression comes from bending the time. Both PM and the new generation are serious musicians so we got a contradiction here...
    If you play with great players a lot, it will happen.

    OTOH I do not believe (like for instance Jeff Berlin) that playing with a metronome will destroy your time feel - iff are playing with others as well. Too many players I admire have done it for me to think that.

    For instance, Dave Cliff, great UK guitar player, is of the Tristano school. He pointed out to me that Wes's records actually slow down, and yet, being of the Tristano school, he would hold the metronome up as the ultimate arbiter. (So does that mean modern metronomic time > Wes? I don't think Dave would think that.) Dave is one of the most swinging players my country has produced (he's a lot better than that sounds) - but - he has been on the stand with EVERYONE.

    BUT - on the other hand, the fetishisation of this type of clock time is quite a new thing. I think it comes from an educational system that understandably emphasises quantifiable outcomes and accountability on one hand and players who are a bit insecure about ever being able to groove and swing etc quantising the fuckery out of their playing in the mistaken belief that that is what Wes Montgomery or whoever was doing. (I say this from personal experience. I was that metronome at 10 bpm guy.)

    This also has a bit of Video Games mentality about it. Get to level 20 time/feel.

    Furthermore a lot of teachers don't have much of toolkit to work on this stuff beyond, play with great drummers, practice with a metronome. I think that toolkit exists in the practice of various educators, but it doesn't seem to be universal, or pulled together into one place in the way pitch resources are. There's also been some intriguing, but as yet fairly thin research on the empirical nature of swing feel that could inform teaching practice and theoretical backdrop to practical exercises to develop swing feel.

    What constitutes a serious, inspiring musician is never about one thing for me. It never works to start from first principles when it comes to music haha, someone always comes along and makes me reject me firmly held beliefs about how music should be.

  13. #237

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by dlew919
    I wonder if it s the new work? Meetings, micromanaging, tiny tasks. As opposed to 40 years ago where there was Les reliance on computers and more on big ideas and risk?

    Not at all to disparage anyone, just moving the idea beyond just guitar


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Neoliberalism and scientism are to blame!

  14. #238

    User Info Menu

    At the risk of being positivist ...

    Metronomes have been around for the better part of 200 years and many of the old school greats grew up using them. I'm very skeptical that, say, Kenny Burrell (who has a college music degree and a lot of formal training) has a different time feel from Kurt Rosenwinkel because of use or non-use of metronomes.

    The older school players have/had a more direct connection to blues, gospel, other folk music forms, and pop music derived from those roots than younger player because of broader cultural changes. I think that's the more likely explanation.

    It's also to a degree a US vs European/Asia thing. I meet contemporaries of mine (mid 50s) all the time from Europe who almost never played or listened to soul, funk, blues, rock and roll, or country. But most Americans my age +/- a pretty big margin have all of this under our belts. Music with a greasier ryhthmic feel is in the water and air here. But this distinction is probably disappearing because the roots forms are now disappearing from American culture.

    John

  15. #239

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i'm quite surprised to hear that because if anything wes was sometimes rushing a tiny bit. it's more obvious with the live recordings.

    for example, sonny boy from ronnie scotts starts at 208 and ends over 240. besame mucho the same. something like bags does slow down a good bit but it's ron carter's solo that drags. unit 7 speeds up as well. so does airegin.

    there may be examples of wes slowing down, but it's not his tendency. and certainly his records do not slow down in general.
    I had two interesting discussions once but in classical world but it does not matter here...

    I was playing on lute Zamboni's sonata and was blamed of slowing it down signidicantly at teh final cadenza and that it was not appropriate for the baroque style. I said: I did not slow down... The answer was look: he pointed at teh phone record and began to clap the beat... of course I knew that regarding the stric meter I was slowing down but I did not feel that i was slowing down the music... I think it is not quite the same thing.
    Music has contents and we need time to pronounce it coherently and to percieve it.. people are different some need more time some less...

    Another question was the opposite: I asked a well-known young lute player (the vid is on youtube) that I feel like everything is rushed (I did not say he plays faster, I said in rusch, in a haste - it is different I believe, rush is not about time it is about the essence of the action)... and he answered: put the metronome and you will see that I am exactly in time! --- you see this is what he thinks about...


    In jazz it is a bit different as the basic pulse is more independent but still.... the greatest slowdown I heard was in Idle Moments - I think it is alsmot twice as slow at the end!

  16. #240

    User Info Menu

    There are many slowing down and rushing recordings among the greatest. This proves for me, that atomic internal clock nonsense is a deadend. What matter is the time "feel". It is not a coincidence we call it a feeling, which exact opposite of math. Within the rushing or slowing recording, a player with great time feel can make your leg or body move to feel the current tempo. Of course if the rushing or slowing down in the tune is above a value, that can be disappointing.

    ***

    You can not have an internal atomic clock, then execute intentionally behind or above. I mean one can, but the result will not groove. The concept sounds me too scientific and in the best it produces interesting, but artificial feel. If one have a solid feel of groove (=good time feel), then he can execute according that his internal groove/swing
    Last edited by Gabor; 09-26-2019 at 08:57 AM.

  17. #241

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    MAYBE. I do think he is more like, for instance, Gilad Heckselman than John Scofield, but I still feel his time is quite slippery in an interesting sort of way. He doesn't swing in the same way as the old guys, but he has a very human thing. I don't get the impression that Pat learned to play in time by playing with a metronome (or drum machine obv). This may have been something he taught to try and fix players that didn't have his time/feel. Remember, he was an educator before he was a guitar star.
    Was the same in my mind. Accordingly I am currently not fan either of them. I mean PM and GH


    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    If you have any interview evidence to the contrary, would be interested to see it.
    This comes from not an interview instead of the taped private lesson. I try to demonstrate the touch of clock fetishism ((c) Christian) , and the artificial vs human result.
    Main topics:

    - PM's good drummer definition: a good drummer who did not allow any inaccuracy (a metronome, which beeps if you are out of sync?).
    - PM: tempo's smallest subdivision is going in my head/stomach (triplets)
    - PM: With a metronome demonstrates how to be sync, above, behind the beat.
    - Then PM: demonstrates solo lines over the metronome. It is trademark PM, incredible, but he successfully demonstrates how to be PM, and how to not swing. You admire it, but your leg will not start to move for sure.


    In case the video starts elsewhere, then seek to 6:37

    Last edited by Gabor; 09-26-2019 at 09:26 AM.

  18. #242

    User Info Menu

    You know I feel like music is the best incarnation of time... we often say that we feel time in daily life but we cannot describe it... clocks are not time, it is just a convention (in that sense Peter Bernstein expressed what I feel very clearly, he said something like: 'using metronome while practicing helps me to stay sane...' It is very true becasue the tools of art are conventional and we cannot totally break this connection becasue we will lose communication which is the great feature of true art.)...

    But still clock is convention and music as it is written or being played truely expresses internal time feel..

    in that sense the meter or metronimic timing is just a supportive tool to arrange the conncetions between players or between a player and a piece... it is like something to get basic orientation.. like an actor in the stage: ok here is a table, here is a chair and there is a door... if he is a newbie he will probably make mistake because theatrical reality is conventional he will try to make marks (like they do in the movies so that they would not step out of the camera view)... but experienced actor will immidiately - often already instincltively - build up proper connections with enviroment so that he would not need to count steps or think where his partner and the audience are... and thanks to these connections his reactions will be natural.
    Last edited by Jonah; 09-26-2019 at 09:55 AM.

  19. #243

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Was the same in my mind. Accordingly I am currently not fan either of them. I mean PM and GH




    This comes from not an interview instead of the taped private lesson. I try to demonstrate the touch of clock fetishism ((c) Christian) , and the artificial vs human result.
    Main topics:
    I listened to this last about 5 years ago. About due for a revisit.

    - PM's good drummer definition: a good drummer who did not allow any inaccuracy (a metronome, which beeps if you are out of sync?).
    Well, sure (sorry Blakey) - actually Blakey is every non drummers favourite drummer, you know what I mean haha. It is entirely possible to both be able to synch with a metronome and also play excellent human time when without a click.

    Need to re-listen and don't really have time right now. I can't remember Pat's exact words, but I question the idea that accurate necessarily means metronomic (it may well do for the purposes of practice of course). I think the student in the vid is at such a low, amateur level, it possibly means playing with good pro-level drummers who don't drop beats, speed up massively and so on rather than Peter Erskine or something...

    TBH IIRC this lesson could have been my lesson with a pro guitar player 15 years ago. It's the same shit.

    One way of identfying timing problems in your playing for instance is recording yourself soloing or playing a melody without a click and listening back, maybe playing along. (The Chick Corea method)

    - PM: tempo's smallest subdivision is going in my head/stomach (triplets)
    That's subdivision. That's not necessarily a metronome thing. We all have to do this to lock in, no?

    - PM: With a metronome demonstrates how to be sync, above, behind the beat.
    I don't think this is something a lot of more recent players do so much, or is just my tin ear? Two words. Sonny Rollins. Being able to play arounf the metronome is one creative way to practice with it...

    - Then PM: demonstrates solo lines over the metronome. It is trademark PM, incredible, but he successfully demonstrates how to be PM, and how to not swing. You admire it, but your leg will not start to move for sure.
    I really need to relisten to this haha


    In case the video starts elsewhere, then seek to 6:37

    [/QUOTE]

  20. #244

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Well, sure (sorry Blakey) - actually Blakey is every non drummers favourite drummer, you know what I mean haha.
    [/QUOTE] I'm not in on this, can you expand?

  21. #245

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    There are many slowing down and rushing recordings among the greatest. This proves for me, that atomic internal clock nonsense is a deadend. What matter is the time "feel". It is not a coincidence we call it a feeling, which exact opposite of math. Within the rushing or slowing recording, a player with great time feel can make your leg or body move to feel the current tempo. Of course if the rushing or slowing down in the tune is above a value, that can be disappointing.

    ***

    You can not have an internal atomic clock, then execute intentionally behind or above. I mean one can, but the result will not groove. The concept sounds me too scientific and in the best it produces interesting, but artificial feel. If one have a solid feel of groove (=good time feel), then he can execute according that his internal groove/swing
    Well, there's a theory, partially backed up by evidence that the microrhythmic lateness in jazz swing is specific to the swing ratio. In fact it turns out the upbeats are agreed throughout the ensemble, and if the 8ths are quite straight, you play more behind. That's very specific, and result still grooves. The placement of the beat also varies as the line approaches resolution, the swing ratio gets more pronounced and the playing is more on the beat.

    But the people researching this are bored particle physicists in a spare lunch hour, so evidence is quite thin ATM. It seems to be the way Freddie Hubbard phrases, at least.

    About 6 months ago I was all about this theory, because, hey, it works. But now I'm listening to Trane and Wayne and so on again, it's like wha...?

    Kreisberg said 'people think this music floats, but it's all locked in.' I wonder if that's true?

  22. #246

    User Info Menu

    I'm not in on this, can you expand?[/QUOTE]

    He grooves like an MF, but technically he's really messy, drops beats sometimes in solos, and so on. Still one of my favourites. Screw the metronome!

  23. #247

    User Info Menu

    I'm not in on this, can you expand?[/QUOTE]

    Blakey's in your face. He leads any band he was in...so non-drummers notice him.

    I am a non-drummer, and I do love Art Blakey. But there's a lot to drums that's not on the surface, and might slip by non-drummers. Hell, I've had drummers explain it to me like I was a 5 year old and I still don't hear it. And they got their own names for shit, too, so half the time a non-drummer doesn't even know what they're talking about.

    Who else does that?

  24. #248

    User Info Menu

    If you want to hear a classic jazz track that slows down, listen to the beginning and the end of this. I didn’t notice this for years!


  25. #249

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    If you want to hear a classic jazz track that slows down, listen to the beginning and the end of this. I didn’t notice this for years!

    Never noticed it, but if you listen to the beginning and then skip right to the end, it's pretty obvious...

    Now to wonder...just naturally slowed down...or is there a splice somewhere I never noticed...time to listen closer.

  26. #250

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Never noticed it, but if you listen to the beginning and then skip right to the end, it's pretty obvious...

    Now to wonder...just naturally slowed down...or is there a splice somewhere I never noticed...time to listen closer.
    Iirc several cuts on Kind of Blue get faster.

    Think how much better that music would have been if they cut it with a click track /s/