Can't get into Pat Metheny

[rmpmcdermott]

I saw Metheny with both the SongX band and with Derek Bailey. I thought SongX worked pretty well (both live and the record). It had a lot of groove to it, and tunes with actual form and structure. I think of Ornette as kind of different from most other free players in that he plays with a pretty tone and the style comes off more as genuine/organic expression of who he is than as some sort of conscious experiment and effort to not sound like other people. OTOH, I found the show I saw with Bailey unbearable. It was brutally, painfully loud, completely devoid of any discernible structure, pattern or groove, and executed with the ugliest possible textures on all instruments. I guess if that was the intent (and I can understand in the abstract why it might be), it was successful, but it's not something I would ever go see on purpose again.

John

Was that the Knitting Factory show with Metheny and Bailey. I think most people regard that one as an unfortunate even for both parties involved. Bailey is a hero of mine and I have a ton of respect for Metheny. But I was never under the delusion that they'd be a good combo.

[rmpmcdermott]

Ornette is way different than most free players, which is interesting and somewhat significant in that he kind of created the style. Early Ornette doesn’t destroy tonality and meter. It just frees it. You have to really use your ears to play it. I played several concerts of just Ornette music. It’s not anything goes. There is a structure. You just have to make it happen. Listen to everybody. The chords aren’t written but they’re there. Lonely Woman, Peace, Una Muy Bonita. Great tunes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To quote Joe Morris: "Free music is not music that is free of deliberate content or structure. It is music that exists because the artists who make it are compelled to remain free to render their music in any fashion they fell is worthwhile, and they are free to set the criteria for their music."

Ornette had harmolodics
Cecil had unit structures
Pharaoh and Sharrock had free modal

I think it's fair to say that Ornette's deliberate structure was inherently more palatable because he was willing to restate themes more than others. You hear it in Eric Dolphy, Don Cherry and Blood Ulmer as well.

I'm agreeing with you here, but adding a bit of my own thinking. (Or, I guess, a bit of Joe Morris' thinking.)

[christianm77]

Ornette is way different than most free players, which is interesting and somewhat significant in that he kind of created the style. Early Ornette doesn’t destroy tonality and meter. It just frees it. You have to really use your ears to play it. I played several concerts of just Ornette music. It’s not anything goes. There is a structure. You just have to make it happen. Listen to everybody. The chords aren’t written but they’re there. Lonely Woman, Peace, Una Muy Bonita. Great tunes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He was a melodicist of the highest order imo

[John A.]

Was that the Knitting Factory show with Metheny and Bailey. I think most people regard that one as an unfortunate even for both parties involved. Bailey is a hero of mine and I have a ton of respect for Metheny. But I was never under the delusion that they'd be a good combo.

Yes, it was the Knitting Factory show. They all seemed pretty into it, but for the audience, it was even rougher than a Kenny G. show.

John

[rmpmcdermott]

Yes, it was the Knitting Factory show. They all seemed pretty into it, but for the audience, it was even rougher than a Kenny G. show.

John

Oh, man. I'm so jealous you were there. Even thought it ended up kind of a train wreck, I'd still be into just hearing it in the moment. Plus that whole Knitting Factory scene in the late 80s-late 90s must have been really cool to be immersed in. I lived in New York around 2004-2006 for graduate school and the Knit was still on Leonard Street. Saw some cool stuff there, but it was a different place by that point. Tonic and The Stone were favorites. I wish I'd gone out to see more music, though.

[John A.]

Oh, man. I'm so jealous you were there. Even thought it ended up kind of a train wreck, I'd still be into just hearing it in the moment. Plus that whole Knitting Factory scene in the late 80s-late 90s must have been really cool to be immersed in. I lived in New York around 2004-2006 for graduate school and the Knit was still on Leonard Street. Saw some cool stuff there, but it was a different place by that point. Tonic and The Stone were favorites. I wish I'd gone out to see more music, though.

I would say that by the time the Knitting Factory moved from East Houston to Leonard it had already changed quite a bit, but there was still a lot of great music there. I saw Metheny at Leonard St. one other time with Kenny Garrett (saw that group also at Sweet Basil). Hard to pick a favorite show -- musically I think my favorite period is Still Life Talking, but seeing him with small groups in smaller spaces in some ways trumps the compositional aspects of the PMG shows. I tend to say my favorite was the first I saw, with Charlie Haden and Billie Higgins at the Columbia chapel. As you can tell, I've seem him a bunch ... But I go out a lot less than I used to due to family stuff, and have pretty much lost the thread of the live music scene. I really only have time to play, not to play and go to shows, alas.

John

[rmpmcdermott]

I would say that by the time the Knitting Factory moved from East Houston to Leonard it had already changed quite a bit, but there was still a lot of great music there. I saw Metheny at Leonard St. one other time with Kenny Garrett (saw that group also at Sweet Basil). Hard to pick a favorite show -- musically I think my favorite period is Still Life Talking, but seeing him with small groups in smaller spaces in some ways trumps the compositional aspects of the PMG shows. I tend to say my favorite was the first I saw, with Charlie Haden and Billie Higgins at the Columbia chapel. As you can tell, I've seem him a bunch ... But I go out a lot less than I used to due to family stuff, and have pretty much lost the thread of the live music scene. I really only have time to play, not to play and go to shows, alas.

John

Yeah, I imagine that first space on East Houston was where the magic happened. I don't get out much either, as I have a 1-year-old and a full time job. I saw Mary Halvorson last year and I'm going to try to see Margaret Leng Tan do a bunch of John Cage pieces next month.

Anyway, thanks for the notes about the Kitting Factory. Love hearing about Downtown music when it was happening, especially first-hand accounts.

[neatomic]

I would say that by the time the Knitting Factory moved from East Houston to Leonard it had already changed quite a bit...

John

amen to that!!! houston was a musicians hangspot...later versions were a business..no compare..not to say great music wasn't made...but completely different vibe

it was really an extension of the earlier downtown loft jazz scene


cheers

[rmpmcdermott]

amen to that!!! houston was a musicians hangspot...later versions were a business..no compare..not to say great music wasn't made...but completely different vibe

it was really an extension of the earlier downtown loft jazz scene


cheers

That makes sense. I think that downtown scene had several feeders and one of them was definitely the loft scene. William Parker played there a bunch back then, right? And then I think there's the new music, Feldman/Xenakis-inspired crew. Zorn seemed to be the best at traversing those worlds.

Sorry to derail the thread. I just love any chance I get to talk about that era of experimental music.

[neatomic]

actually jim hall was very dismissive of working with metheney..didn't like pats method of overdubbing and fixing tracks at all

facts

cheers

[Bbmaj7#5#9]

Last week I read this article about the recording process behind their duo album. I never knew Metheny played through a Polytone on that album. The article was published at guitarplayer.com in August 1999.

Dynamic Duo - Jim Hall on the Making of Jim Hall & Pat Metheny

[West LA Jazz]

I am a huge fan of the old jazz greats: Django, Wes, Grant Green, Joe Pass, Pat Martino, Jim Hall, George Benson, Kenny Burrel, Barney Kessel etc. They all have that funky, bluesy, jazzy guitar style that I love. However, for some reason I just can't get into Pat Metheny. I hear everybody talk about how great he is. And I really want to like it. So far the only thing I really liked is his version of ATTYA with Jim Hall.

All his other stuff feels so corny to me. Like the smooth jazz you hear in the mall/the weather channel or that new agey stuff. Especially his synth guitar.

Also, as a person Pat Metheny seems quite pretentious. Of course what Kenny G did is not cool. But as I said, I think his music sounds almost as corny as Kenny G's stuff.

Will the jazz police arrest me? Am I tone deaf? Am I not smart/deep enough? Will I get the banhammer?

No. You won't get arrested and yes, a lot of his tracks sound either new agey or smooth jazz ish. He rode that sound to serious fame though. That's just him.

[cosmic gumbo]

Almost like a Kenny G video....

[Gabor]

Almost like a Kenny G video....

Thanks, after literally dozens of consecutive posts where posters arguing about how an artist should or should not behave, and how we reprove, judge or support it, at least we are talking about music again. (I really think personal emotions and judgement bias are holding back understanding music, and in general any art)

***

Needless to deny the most polite we can say this clip is “easy to understand”. Just imagine sax playing the guitar solo, then there we go...

However this really does not mean PM is equal with Kenny G. as musician. If Kenny G could record Bright Size Life with Jaco, that would mean they are similar as artist.

[John A.]

That makes sense. I think that downtown scene had several feeders and one of them was definitely the loft scene. William Parker played there a bunch back then, right? And then I think there's the new music, Feldman/Xenakis-inspired crew. Zorn seemed to be the best at traversing those worlds.

Sorry to derail the thread. I just love any chance I get to talk about that era of experimental music.

I hand't thought about it that way. I guess in my mind the jazz lofts were very specifically jazz, whereas the downtown scene was broader. It encompassed visual and performance art, dance, rock, world music, etc. E.g. Zorn/Lounge Lizards started out in punk clubs (I saw one of their first shows at a place called Tier 3 '79-ish). But everything I say comes with a big caveat that I was just a kid, and didn't know anything about what I was seeing when I started going to these places (doubtless, I also misremember a lot).

John

[Hep To The Jive]

Almost like a Kenny G video....

Actually, I don't think so.. It's a well composed and played pop jazz instrumental tune. I enjoyed it, and I think it has a lot of depth. It's not the same as Kenny G rubbish, one dimensional and banal.

Of course again, if you look from the angle of classic jazz ala Kenny Barrel or such, you can be disappointed. But why look from that angle? It's really apples and oranges.

And even in this performance I can still hear PM is influenced by rocknroll. I don't know how, but it's there always, I can feel it. And that's why I always cool with PM, he was the last generation of jazz guitarists who embraced rock music as part of their language. With Sco, Frisell, Abercrombie...

From there on it's nerds nerds, nerd jazz which is not to my liking at all. So never had a problem with PM, even though I don't own any of his recordings.

[lawson-stone]

Almost like a Kenny G video....

Except for the long synth-guitar solo, which used melodic ideas I can't imagine Kenny G using.

This really just shows that Metheny can do that thing too, as well as his more advanced material.

The big question then comes, What precisely can Pat Metheny not do musically? Hard to think of anything.

[Gabor]

Actually, I don't think so.. It's a well composed and played pop jazz instrumental tune. I enjoyed it, and I think it has a lot of depth.

Yes it well composed. Yes it is pop. But 99% has nothing to do with jazz, so please do not call it to jazz. Neither the main points of the harmony progression, neither the piano play style. I've carefully listened the guitar solo, except 2 bars it has nothing to do with jazz, and really nothing to do with the jazz legacy. Which is not a problem, just do not categorize it as jazz. Regarding the "depth" it is matter of perception, but (imho) the most appropriate I can describe is "sentimental", (and "easy to understand" as I wrote originally).

Almost a half century ago Pink Floyd made records what are really more injected with jazz than this PM pop song, but thankfully no one think it is jazz.

Watch this. This was really something: (in case it starts at 0:00 skip to 15:23)

and this: (in case it starts at 0:00 skip to 1:57)

This music rock/pop (actually more influenced with jazz than the PM video, but this is not the point) made music history which is the point. Bright Size Life also made music history. But this Longest Summer thing... I think lost cause to defend it...

[Gabor]

Except for the long synth-guitar solo, which used melodic ideas.

You are right, there are melodic ideas. However ask yourself: Is there any point where it is surprising or do you hear anything what you did not see to come knowing PM? (either rhythmically or harmonically, or melody wise?) I did not. But I can not deny: really sweet to listen. Unfortunately the very same (literally) melody ideas were already on Bright Size Life, and since then in every single work. The only exceptions I can think about is One Quiet Night (I am not sure how real it is) and Zero Tolerance... which more like experiment than music, max 1% of PM fans are tolerate it. You asking:

What precisely can Pat Methenynot do musically? Hard to think of anything.

He can do anything you are right, the only drawback he is using the very same melodic ideas (his trademark) + very sophisticated patterns with incredible and unique technique (this is also his trademark). However this does not save this Longest Summer neither makes it musically notable.

[lawson-stone]

You are right, there are melodic ideas. However ask yourself: Is there any point where it is surprising or do you hear anything what you did not see to come knowing PM? (either rhythmically or harmonically, or melody wise?) I did not. But I can not deny: really sweet to listen. Unfortunately the very same (literally) melody ideas were already on Bright Size Life, and since then in every single work. The only exceptions I can think about is One Quiet Night (I am not sure how real it is) and Zero Tolerance... which more like experiment than music, max 1% of PM fans are tolerate it. You asking:



He can do anything you are right, the only drawback he is using the very same melodic ideas (his trademark) + very sophisticated patterns with incredible and unique technique (this is also his trademark). However this does not save this Longest Summer neither makes it musically notable.

Use of the same melodic ideas can be said also of Charlie Parker. The point is, Parker invented those ideas. And the repeated melodic ideas in Metheny's music are things he himself has pioneered. It's kind of like complaining the Louis L'Amour just keeps on writing classic western novels. When the people who actually invented the ideas they repeated use, continually use them, it's not the same as someone who just recycles cliches.

I'm having trouble figuring out where all this energy to clarify how Metheny isn't playing jazz comes from. There isn't a single authoritative definition of jazz. Swing players claimed bop wasn't jazz. Bop players claimed fusion wasn't jazz. On it goes.

[John A.]

I'm having trouble figuring out where all this energy to clarify how Metheny isn't playing jazz comes from. There isn't a single authoritative definition of jazz. Swing players claimed bop wasn't jazz. Bop players claimed fusion wasn't jazz. On it goes.

I think some people are just way more caught up in categorization of arts, and in trying to reconcile specific likes/dislikes with categorical likes/dislikes that are bound up with other things. [Hipster: "Yeah, man, I like jazz cause it's cool" (snaps fingers, strokes goatee). Hot chick: "Yeah I like jazz, too, especially Pat Metheny" (runs fingers through curly locks, sings wordless Brazilian-ish melody)"; Hipster brain explodes, which solves one dilemma, but causes others. People are weird.]


John

[Gabor]

Use of the same melodic ideas can be said also of Charlie Parker. The point is, Parker invented those ideas. And the repeated melodic ideas in Metheny's music are things he himself has pioneered. It's kind of like complaining the Louis L'Amour just keeps on writing classic western novels. When the people who actually invented the ideas they repeated use, continually use them, it's not the same as someone who just recycles cliches.

I'm having trouble figuring out where all this energy to clarify how Metheny isn't playing jazz comes from. There isn't a single authoritative definition of jazz. Swing players claimed bop wasn't jazz. Bop players claimed fusion wasn't jazz. On it goes.

- Regarding Parker, point on your side.

- Regarding surprise in a solo or in a melody, you skipped that. Just compare, it is no matter how well you know Miles, he still can surprise you even by playing a standard theme by his choice of the rhythm or a particular note.(not even in a solo) The same for Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett or Kreisberg, or Jesse van Ruller.

- Regarding the "history" and progress. All from Armstrong through all notable swing, bepop, hardpop, etc players to Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, Jesse van Ruller, there is a common, regardless of progress. We can call it legacy or language or whatever. All art develops, and has it periods. But we should have some tool to know what is development of jazz and what is something else. Being something new does not prove it is jazz. Listening that particular Longest Summer, there is no common with any of the listed above.

- Regarding the "energy". I just observed that is really nothing to do with jazz so lets not call it jazz, no energy. I just like to analyze that's all. But mentioning that, I think a really lost cause (really worth no energy) is defending Longest Summer as a music piece. I suggest to drop that particular piece, it is unwarrantable as significant. We can find better from PM

[Gabor]

I think some people are just way more caught up in categorization of arts, and in trying to reconcile specific likes/dislikes with categorical likes/dislikes that are bound up with other things. [Hipster: "Yeah, man, I like jazz cause it's cool" (snaps fingers, strokes goatee). Hot chick: "Yeah I like jazz, too, especially Pat Metheny" (runs fingers through curly locks, sings wordless Brazilian-ish melody)"; Hipster brain explodes, which solves one dilemma, but causes others. People are weird.]
John

Do I understand correctly this could be the motivation and explanation to categorize that particular PM Longest Summer as jazz?

[lawson-stone]

- Regarding Parker, point on your side.

- Regarding surprise in a solo or in a melody, you skipped that. Just compare, it is no matter how well you know Miles, he still can surprise you even by playing a standard theme by his choice of the rhythm or a particular note.(not even in a solo) The same for Bill Evans or Keith Jarrett or Kreisberg, or Jesse van Ruller.

- Regarding the "history" and progress. All from Armstrong through all notable swing, bepop, hardpop, etc players to Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, Jesse van Ruller, there is a common, regardless of progress. We can call it legacy or language or whatever. All art develops, and has it periods. But we should have some tool to know what is development of jazz and what is something else. Being something new does not prove it is jazz. Listening that particular Longest Summer, there is no common with any of the listed above.

- Regarding the "energy". I just observed that is really nothing to do with jazz so lets not call it jazz, no energy. I just like to analyze that's all. But mentioning that, I think a really lost cause (really worth no energy) is defending Longest Summer as a music piece. I suggest to drop that particular piece, it is unwarrantable as significant. We can find better from PM

Good replies all. You're a serious thinking guy and I appreciate your thoughts. I'll happily admit that clip was not what I'd call Pat Metheny at his most ground-breaking. I'd also agree that specific tune, out of any context, doesn't check all the boxes on my jazz checklist either.

What do you think about the idea, though, that jazz isn't only a tradition of musical ideas, but also of actual players, so that if, say, Charlie Parker or Miles Davis played something that "wasn't jazz" we'd still be strongly inclined to somehow link it to the jazz canon simply because of who played it? What Metheny did in that clip might not, alone, be "jazz" but I don't know many pop players who would have (could have?) produced that. Another issue might be, to what musical genre is a specific performance indebted? I think that Metheny clip is "indebted" to jazz, and has credibility because the player has a respected jazz reputation.

Admittedly that last is a bit of social-location mumble, but I do wonder if there is some license for including in the jazz universe performances that don't check the boxes simply because they are done by someone with very strong jazz identity.

Thoughts?

[John A.]

Do I understand correctly this could be the motivation and explanation to categorize that particular PM Longest Summer as jazz?

I'm saying lots of people make proclamations of taste and category that aren't necessarily just about what they like and dislike and/or are clouded by concerns other than what music actually sounds like. E.g., expressions of taste and category can be a form of social signaling. I'm also saying that whether something is or is not "jazz" or any other category can stem more from someone's need to categorize than it does from the attributes of the music itself.

Is "Longest Summer" jazz? If I really think about the question seriously, I don't think it's a straight yes/no answer. It's part of a longer work (Secret Story) in which Metheny recapitulates a whole bunch of his influences, interests, and directions including jazz. That particular piece is more from the non-jazz sources than some others on Secret Story. There are places on Secret story where his roots playing straight ahead jazz are a little more in evidence. But on balance, Metheny is a jazz musician and jazz is music made by jazz musicians, even the stuff that doesn't quite sound like it. Ultimately, though, I don't really care about categories. I play a bunch of stuff myself and don't get hung up on where to file it.

John